Fellows,
Sorry to ask such a newbie question.
Over the last few weeks I've been fiddling with PD, so many times have I questioned the difference between number boxes (Ctrl+3) and number2 (Ctrl+Shift+n), and then gave up not finding an answer.
Other than subtle difference in behavior, I could not tell the difference. Is the significance of number2 documented anywhere?
Any help appreciated..
-- David Shimamoto
Check out the properties box for number2. It has many useful features such as setting send/receive signals (which is useful for hiding those control messages from the user, and eliminating wires). Also you can set the box to save its value, so when the patch is reloaded, you can easily preserve values. I use them like this, when I have a list of parameters that I wish to reuse on reloading the patch. I save my parameters with number2 boxes, and I give the number2 a receive signal of initialize (for example) and a send name like freq_h. Then, when I send a message "initialize bang;" all of the number2 boxes storing my parameters get sent to the proper calculations, using something like "r freq_h".
Chuck
Charles,
Thank you for the description. I compared the properties and got an idea. This is neat.. I thought there was some difference more tightly associated to the core.. maybe running at a different block size or something.
BTW,
Charles Henry wrote:
<snip> send/receive signals (which is useful for hiding those control messages from the user, and eliminating wires). <snip>
isn't this possible with ordinary number boxes also? or is it not the same?
-- David Shimamoto
PSPunch wrote:
Fellows,
Sorry to ask such a newbie question.
Over the last few weeks I've been fiddling with PD, so many times have I questioned the difference between number boxes (Ctrl+3) and number2 (Ctrl+Shift+n), and then gave up not finding an answer.
Other than subtle difference in behavior, I could not tell the difference. Is the significance of number2 documented anywhere?
there is (almost) no significant difference in functionality between the 2 number boxes.
numberbox2 has more GUI-options (colors!), and back then when it was implemented, the "normal" numberbox had no send/receivers nor a "label". numberbox2 is part of the iemguis (along with the sliders, toggles, radiobuttons,...). the existance of both objects is merely historical.
mf.asdr IOhannes
IOhannes, derek, thanks for the additional tips.
IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
<snip> > there is (almost) no significant difference in functionality between the > 2 number boxes. <snip> > the existance of both objects is merely historical.
I'm assuming I wouldn't have given this such a deep thought if number2 was located in an external, having to load manually by "-lib" or similar, just because I've looked into few but enough externals to know that there are many externals with overlapping functions and minor differences.
Placed in the GUI "put" pull-down, located near other basic objects, I had thought it was critical and unique, despite the limited notes on it.
I apologize for bringing up such an elementary topic. I do feel though that organizing documents, at least for objects found in the GUI "put" pull-down menu would be a quick and easy way to releave head aches & fears of beginners. Maybe just some extra files under "doc/2.examples.controls" would help.
I'd feel a lot more comfortable if I understood (at least) everything in the basic GUI kit after reading a good number of attached docs in order.
Say, there was a nice description on array usages and it's difference from the [table] object at a relatively early stage. I still have no clue on what "graph"s are for.
Just an idea from a beginner who's tried to learn from the current documentations.. or did I just miss something?
-- David Shimamoto
If you never ask you never learn :) One thing that most beginners miss, and I think it should be written in bold red capitals somewhere, is that right clicking on almost any object will give you a small help menu from where you can access a manual page for that object.
I think I was lucky because this was one of the first things I discovered, so I quickly learned a lot by just placing one of everything on a sheet and looking at its help.
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:49:03 +0900 PSPunch shima@pspunch.com wrote:
IOhannes, derek, thanks for the additional tips.
IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
<snip> > there is (almost) no significant difference in functionality between the > 2 number boxes. <snip> > the existance of both objects is merely historical.
I'm assuming I wouldn't have given this such a deep thought if number2 was located in an external, having to load manually by "-lib" or similar, just because I've looked into few but enough externals to know that there are many externals with overlapping functions and minor differences.
Placed in the GUI "put" pull-down, located near other basic objects, I had thought it was critical and unique, despite the limited notes on it.
I apologize for bringing up such an elementary topic. I do feel though that organizing documents, at least for objects found in the GUI "put" pull-down menu would be a quick and easy way to releave head aches & fears of beginners. Maybe just some extra files under "doc/2.examples.controls" would help.
I'd feel a lot more comfortable if I understood (at least) everything in the basic GUI kit after reading a good number of attached docs in order.
Say, there was a nice description on array usages and it's difference from the [table] object at a relatively early stage. I still have no clue on what "graph"s are for.
Just an idea from a beginner who's tried to learn from the current documentations.. or did I just miss something?
-- David Shimamoto
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
padawan12 wrote:
If you never ask you never learn :) One thing that most beginners miss, and I think it should be written in bold red capitals somewhere, is that right clicking on almost any object will give you a small help menu from where you can access a manual page for that object.
Exactly, I think this is an awesome function. It's simplicity provides a great tool, especially for objects with well prepared tutorials.
I guess I just wanted to point out that from the viewpoint of one who has not been following the history of PD, I do find it kind to add exactly what IOhannes mentioned about number2. (How in addition to the GUI, number2 was so advanced in the days when ordinary number boxes could not send/receive messages)
and also prepare some additional help files for "graph" and "array". RightClick->Help on either object currently opens the help on [table].
I found "number2" and "graph" the only two elements that leave the reader in the air after walking through the tutorials (and Miller's book on synthesis) as far as default functions -right in the menu- go.
Arrays, I found well described in /doc/2.control.examples/15 arrays.pd
Where can I learn on graphs ?
Again, please tell me if it is documented and it is just my search functions lacking concentration. I wouldn't be surprised if I've missed it along the way since it IS difficult to focus and study PD linearly, every aspect of it is just so inspiring and temptating. :)
-- David Shimamoto
Hallo, PSPunch hat gesagt: // PSPunch wrote:
Where can I learn on graphs ?
A graph is the black rectangle that you get, when you choose "Put->Graph" and it's the black rectangle surrounding arrays. Now, what use is it? You can put an array, a list of numbers, into a graph.
Did you notice, that everytime you do "Put -> Graph" you get asked, if you want to put it "in new graph" or "in last graph"? Normally you have every array in its own graph, but you can also put many arrays into a single graph, for example, to see how many sinesums add up to a rectangle curve etc.
Personally I don't use this functionality at all in real life. I don't even use arrays in real life a lot, I only use [table].
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
On 10/11/06, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Personally I don't use this functionality at all in real life. I don't even use arrays in real life a lot, I only use [table].
Alright, this begs the question...
What are the finer points on the differences between an array and a table? I thought they were functionally the same, and I was under the impression that these names were more of an historical oddity, and not so much a functionality difference...
Thanks,
Mike
I believe that the major differences are:
- Tables are not GOP whereas arrays are.
- Arrays allow scaling of the Y-axis, tables do not. For example, with an
array, you can have data stored from -650 to 554 per entry, a table is limited to a range of +/-1.
~Kyle
On 10/11/06, Mike McGonagle mjmogo@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/11/06, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Personally I don't use this functionality at all in real life. I don't even use arrays in real life a lot, I only use [table].
Alright, this begs the question...
What are the finer points on the differences between an array and a table? I thought they were functionally the same, and I was under the impression that these names were more of an historical oddity, and not so much a functionality difference...
Thanks,
Mike
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hallo, Kyle Klipowicz hat gesagt: // Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
I believe that the major differences are:
- Tables are not GOP whereas arrays are.
Yes, that's the most important difference: A [table] lives in its own little object box, it's quickly created qith Ctl-1, can be renamed easily and is much smaller than an array display. So unless I really need to see the array-data all the time, I use a table.
- Arrays allow scaling of the Y-axis, tables do not. For example, with an
array, you can have data stored from -650 to 554 per entry, a table is limited to a range of +/-1.
That's not quite true: You can set all the same properties, you can set for an array, for a table as well. They just don't get saved in the patch, which I think is a bug of table.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
- Arrays allow scaling of the Y-axis, tables do not. For example,
with an array, you can have data stored from -650 to 554 per entry, a table is limited to a range of +/-1.
just to add more justice to [table]: scaling has nothing to do with the data stored. you can store any floating point number in an entry of a table/array, regardless of the scaling. (you might not see the value, since it might well be out of the window, but nevertheless it is there)
mfga.sdr. IOhannes
On Oct 11, 2006, at 3:57 PM, Mike McGonagle wrote:
On 10/11/06, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Personally I don't use this functionality at all in real life. I
don't even use arrays in real life a lot, I only use [table].Alright, this begs the question...
What are the finer points on the differences between an array and a table? I thought they were functionally the same, and I was under the impression that these names were more of an historical oddity, and not so much a functionality difference...
...I also have a question related to this, or possibly a bug? On
OSX, I can't seem to "save contents" of tables, but it works if I
just create an array...one difference between the two is that upon
creation of an array, the "save contents" box is already checked in
the array preference panel: when creating a table, this box is
unchecked...
...does anyone see this on other platforms?
james
Hmm, it would be nice if [table] allowed all the niceities of arrays, just by typing in optional extra variables.
For instance [table foo 100 save last GOP poly], would make GOP polygonal array which saves it's contents in the last graph. Dunno if that's a really good example, but the general idea would be nice. Especially if it included ranges and such too.
Would this be difficult to implement?
~Kyle
On 10/12/06, james tittle tigital@mac.com wrote:
On Oct 11, 2006, at 3:57 PM, Mike McGonagle wrote:
On 10/11/06, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Personally I don't use this functionality at all in real life. I don't even use arrays in real life a lot, I only use [table].
Alright, this begs the question...
What are the finer points on the differences between an array and a table? I thought they were functionally the same, and I was under the impression that these names were more of an historical oddity, and not so much a functionality difference...
...I also have a question related to this, or possibly a bug? On OSX, I can't seem to "save contents" of tables, but it works if I just create an array...one difference between the two is that upon creation of an array, the "save contents" box is already checked in the array preference panel: when creating a table, this box is unchecked...
...does anyone see this on other platforms?
james
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hallo, james tittle hat gesagt: // james tittle wrote:
...I also have a question related to this, or possibly a bug? On
OSX, I can't seem to "save contents" of tables, but it works if I
just create an array...one difference between the two is that upon
creation of an array, the "save contents" box is already checked in
the array preference panel: when creating a table, this box is
unchecked......does anyone see this on other platforms?
Yes, it happens on Linux, too. I'm not sure, if it's a bug, though. As [table] is an object like [float] it probably isn't supposed to save any state besides the state specified through arguments.
Then the bug would be in the Properties-Box, where the checkbox "Save contents" should be removed. Instead as Kyle suggested, additional arguments may be useful.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
hao,
so is there a chance to control the number2 number box from the arrow
keys in the keyboard? both in os x and linux/gnu i dont seem to get
this keys to generate input.. certainly i might need to use the [key]
object.. but will be nice to have this ready, out of the box,
everytime you create a crtl+shift+n numberbox.
am im missing a key combination to get this behaviour?
2c, /a
On Oct 10, 2006, at 3:46 PM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
PSPunch wrote:
Fellows, Sorry to ask such a newbie question. Over the last few weeks I've been fiddling with PD, so many times have I questioned the difference between number boxes (Ctrl+3) and number2 (Ctrl+Shift+n), and then gave up not finding an answer. Other than subtle difference in behavior, I could not tell the difference. Is the significance of number2 documented anywhere?
there is (almost) no significant difference in functionality
between the 2 number boxes.numberbox2 has more GUI-options (colors!), and back then when it
was implemented, the "normal" numberbox had no send/receivers nor
a "label". numberbox2 is part of the iemguis (along with the sliders, toggles,
radiobuttons,...). the existance of both objects is merely historical.mf.asdr IOhannes
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
number2 can save it's state if you use the "init" button in preferences. It can also change color, etc. I'm sure it does other neat tricks, but those are the two best ones.
d.
PSPunch wrote:
Fellows,
Sorry to ask such a newbie question.
Over the last few weeks I've been fiddling with PD, so many times have I questioned the difference between number boxes (Ctrl+3) and number2 (Ctrl+Shift+n), and then gave up not finding an answer.
Other than subtle difference in behavior, I could not tell the difference. Is the significance of number2 documented anywhere?
Any help appreciated..
-- David Shimamoto
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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