hi, do you know if the moog object comes from this paper?
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/p/pod/dod-idx/preserving-the-structure-of-the-...
I believe, though I may be wrong, that the Moog vcf object is based on the algorithm described in the 2004 Huovalainen paper (citation [6] in the Fontana):
http://www.mirlab.org/conference_papers/International_Conference/DAFx%202004...
I am a little confused here (in the Fontana) by the author's assertion that he can implement a 'delay-free' loop by computing the output first, and then finding the states of the filter based on this. I don't quite see how this is different from finding the states first and then finding the output -- chicken then the egg vs. egg then the chicken.
Still, judging by the plots they provide, they seem to have overcome the frequency warping issue (an artifact of unit delay) described by Huovalainen.
It'd certainly be interesting to see an what actual implementation of this does, rather than just some matlab plots.
-David
On 12/28/2014 07:43 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
hi, do you know if the moog object comes from this paper?
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/p/pod/dod-idx/preserving-the-structure-of-the-...
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Hi David,
It'd certainly be interesting to see an what actual implementation of this does, rather than just some matlab plots.
An actual implementation is provided in the MoogFF filter in Super Collider, you can just download and try it out. The code of the object is also provided somewhere, as it is a source code.
I'd like to understand pd's [moog~] object one day, and implement it with [fexpr~] or something. Maybe I'll do this other one as well.
Cheers
2014-12-29 17:20 GMT-02:00 David Medine dmedine@ucsd.edu:
I believe, though I may be wrong, that the Moog vcf object is based on the algorithm described in the 2004 Huovalainen paper (citation [6] in the Fontana):
http://www.mirlab.org/conference_papers/International_Conference/DAFx%202004...
I am a little confused here (in the Fontana) by the author's assertion that he can implement a 'delay-free' loop by computing the output first, and then finding the states of the filter based on this. I don't quite see how this is different from finding the states first and then finding the output -- chicken then the egg vs. egg then the chicken.
Still, judging by the plots they provide, they seem to have overcome the frequency warping issue (an artifact of unit delay) described by Huovalainen.
It'd certainly be interesting to see an what actual implementation of this does, rather than just some matlab plots.
-David
On 12/28/2014 07:43 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
hi, do you know if the moog object comes from this paper?
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/p/pod/dod-idx/preserving-the-structure-of-the-...
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Cool, I will definitely check out this SC object. Thanks for that.
Miller (being the author) would know better than I of course, but I believe the way that [moog~] works is to use Runge-Kutta to solve the ordinary differential equation that governs each stage of the filter in its continuous time representation. This equation (along with a discrete implementation of the complete filter) is what is described in the paper I mentioned. Incidentally, using Runge-Kutta (or any appropriate iterative ODE solver) also abnegates the frequency warping problem.
I think it might be very difficult to code this up with [fexpr~]. It would certainly require at least a quadrupling of the sampling rate. Has anyone out there ever implemented Runge-Kutta with [expr~]? It might also be that Pd's data structures are an appropriate choice for such a project? Either way, it would be super cool to have this as a Pd abstraction rather than an extern.
-David
On 12/31/2014 10:05 AM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Hi David,
It'd certainly be interesting to see an what actual implementation of this does, rather than just some matlab plots.
An actual implementation is provided in the MoogFF filter in Super Collider, you can just download and try it out. The code of the object is also provided somewhere, as it is a source code.
I'd like to understand pd's [moog~] object one day, and implement it with [fexpr~] or something. Maybe I'll do this other one as well.
Cheers
2014-12-29 17:20 GMT-02:00 David Medine <dmedine@ucsd.edu mailto:dmedine@ucsd.edu>:
I believe, though I may be wrong, that the Moog vcf object is based on the algorithm described in the 2004 Huovalainen paper (citation [6] in the Fontana): http://www.mirlab.org/conference_papers/International_Conference/DAFx%202004/Proc/P_061.pdf I am a little confused here (in the Fontana) by the author's assertion that he can implement a 'delay-free' loop by computing the output first, and then finding the states of the filter based on this. I don't quite see how this is different from finding the states first and then finding the output -- chicken then the egg vs. egg then the chicken. Still, judging by the plots they provide, they seem to have overcome the frequency warping issue (an artifact of unit delay) described by Huovalainen. It'd certainly be interesting to see an what actual implementation of this does, rather than just some matlab plots. -David On 12/28/2014 07:43 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
hi, do you know if the moog object comes from this paper? http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/p/pod/dod-idx/preserving-the-structure-of-the-moog-vcf-in-the-digital.pdf?c=icmc;idno=bbp2372.2007.062 _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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Miller (being the author) would know better
But the [moog~] object that I see here on Pd extended was written by gunter Geiger.
it would be super cool to have this as a Pd abstraction rather than an extern.
Dan Wilcox also wanted that as I remember. If you care to help me we could try and do it. I kinda suck at math and all but when I put my mind into it I can do these things I never knew I could :) I've been implementing several filters with [fexpr~] and/or vanilla's raw pole/zero filters. I've kinda done them all, [moog~] is the next on my list.
But I probably won't get into this until the 2nd half of january, as I plan to go to some island for my summer break.
cheers and happy new year.
2014-12-31 19:42 GMT-02:00 David Medine dmedine@ucsd.edu:
Cool, I will definitely check out this SC object. Thanks for that.
Miller (being the author) would know better than I of course, but I believe the way that [moog~] works is to use Runge-Kutta to solve the ordinary differential equation that governs each stage of the filter in its continuous time representation. This equation (along with a discrete implementation of the complete filter) is what is described in the paper I mentioned. Incidentally, using Runge-Kutta (or any appropriate iterative ODE solver) also abnegates the frequency warping problem.
I think it might be very difficult to code this up with [fexpr~]. It would certainly require at least a quadrupling of the sampling rate. Has anyone out there ever implemented Runge-Kutta with [expr~]? It might also be that Pd's data structures are an appropriate choice for such a project? Either way, it would be super cool to have this as a Pd abstraction rather than an extern.
-David
On 12/31/2014 10:05 AM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Hi David,
It'd certainly be interesting to see an what actual implementation of this does, rather than just some matlab plots.
An actual implementation is provided in the MoogFF filter in Super Collider, you can just download and try it out. The code of the object is also provided somewhere, as it is a source code.
I'd like to understand pd's [moog~] object one day, and implement it with [fexpr~] or something. Maybe I'll do this other one as well.
Cheers
2014-12-29 17:20 GMT-02:00 David Medine dmedine@ucsd.edu:
I believe, though I may be wrong, that the Moog vcf object is based on the algorithm described in the 2004 Huovalainen paper (citation [6] in the Fontana):
http://www.mirlab.org/conference_papers/International_Conference/DAFx%202004...
I am a little confused here (in the Fontana) by the author's assertion that he can implement a 'delay-free' loop by computing the output first, and then finding the states of the filter based on this. I don't quite see how this is different from finding the states first and then finding the output -- chicken then the egg vs. egg then the chicken.
Still, judging by the plots they provide, they seem to have overcome the frequency warping issue (an artifact of unit delay) described by Huovalainen.
It'd certainly be interesting to see an what actual implementation of this does, rather than just some matlab plots.
-David
On 12/28/2014 07:43 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
hi, do you know if the moog object comes from this paper?
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/p/pod/dod-idx/preserving-the-structure-of-the-...
_______________________________________________Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Sorry, I was thinking of one that Miller wrote that I saw sometime back. I haven't actually looked at the one on extended. I will check it out.
Let's stay in touch about this. It sounds like a fun project.
happy new year
On 12/31/2014 02:11 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Miller (being the author) would know better
But the [moog~] object that I see here on Pd extended was written by gunter Geiger.
it would be super cool to have this as a Pd abstraction rather than an extern.
Dan Wilcox also wanted that as I remember. If you care to help me we could try and do it. I kinda suck at math and all but when I put my mind into it I can do these things I never knew I could :) I've been implementing several filters with [fexpr~] and/or vanilla's raw pole/zero filters. I've kinda done them all, [moog~] is the next on my list.
But I probably won't get into this until the 2nd half of january, as I plan to go to some island for my summer break.
cheers and happy new year.
2014-12-31 19:42 GMT-02:00 David Medine <dmedine@ucsd.edu mailto:dmedine@ucsd.edu>:
Cool, I will definitely check out this SC object. Thanks for that. Miller (being the author) would know better than I of course, but I believe the way that [moog~] works is to use Runge-Kutta to solve the ordinary differential equation that governs each stage of the filter in its continuous time representation. This equation (along with a discrete implementation of the complete filter) is what is described in the paper I mentioned. Incidentally, using Runge-Kutta (or any appropriate iterative ODE solver) also abnegates the frequency warping problem. I think it might be very difficult to code this up with [fexpr~]. It would certainly require at least a quadrupling of the sampling rate. Has anyone out there ever implemented Runge-Kutta with [expr~]? It might also be that Pd's data structures are an appropriate choice for such a project? Either way, it would be super cool to have this as a Pd abstraction rather than an extern. -David On 12/31/2014 10:05 AM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Hi David, > It'd certainly be interesting to see an what actual implementation > of this does, rather than just some matlab plots. An actual implementation is provided in the MoogFF filter in Super Collider, you can just download and try it out. The code of the object is also provided somewhere, as it is a source code. I'd like to understand pd's [moog~] object one day, and implement it with [fexpr~] or something. Maybe I'll do this other one as well. Cheers 2014-12-29 17:20 GMT-02:00 David Medine <dmedine@ucsd.edu <mailto:dmedine@ucsd.edu>>: I believe, though I may be wrong, that the Moog vcf object is based on the algorithm described in the 2004 Huovalainen paper (citation [6] in the Fontana): http://www.mirlab.org/conference_papers/International_Conference/DAFx%202004/Proc/P_061.pdf I am a little confused here (in the Fontana) by the author's assertion that he can implement a 'delay-free' loop by computing the output first, and then finding the states of the filter based on this. I don't quite see how this is different from finding the states first and then finding the output -- chicken then the egg vs. egg then the chicken. Still, judging by the plots they provide, they seem to have overcome the frequency warping issue (an artifact of unit delay) described by Huovalainen. It'd certainly be interesting to see an what actual implementation of this does, rather than just some matlab plots. -David On 12/28/2014 07:43 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
hi, do you know if the moog object comes from this paper? http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/p/pod/dod-idx/preserving-the-structure-of-the-moog-vcf-in-the-digital.pdf?c=icmc;idno=bbp2372.2007.062 _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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