Dear friends,
I have serious problem with my patch. It is hard to write it in proper English for me, but I have no choice - I must try,since I`m looking for help.
I would like to show (by scrollist) my list of titles 128 song names. But since I have small space for this on screen, I use only 8 lines in scrollist and "page up" page down" mechanism. I prepared patch who:
- first send 128 lines into memory of scrollist
- next I mark/unmark proper line.
But since I have only 8 line show on display , and list have 128 positions I often must change pages.
The problem is that changing pages cause drop. If I change very fast (by fader) from 0 to 127 (song nuber) many times and from 127 to 0 (again again) then I can see that screen is completely frozen and audio drop is very long (like about 3, 4 second). More moving I did = bigger drop and longer frozen screen.
When I do the same, but with fader on the screen, no problem there. Problem is only when I use external MIDI fader. (of course normally when I use any MIDI message it work great, problem is only with this setup: scrollist)
I tried change thread priority (pd and pd-gui) with many different combinations, but it not solved problem.
I use Ubuntu Studio with gnome, oss audio system. Pentium IV 2,4 512 ram Geforce mx 400 with TV out enabled.
I would like to ask also is oss better than alsa+jack or not? (I mean performance power).
Thank you
Paul Oakenfold - najdroÂższy DJ Âświata
juÂż 7 grudnia wystÂąpi w Hali Stulecia we WrocÂławiu.
Zobacz wiĂŞcej:
http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fgaleria.html&...
Hi Kuba,
same problem as ever.... PD's GUI implementation is a bit crippled. My suggestion would be to run two instances of PD, one for the DSP running --nogui and one for the GUI running --noaudio. Communicate between via netsend or OSC. Check the archives for more tips on this.
As a workaround, you could also try a single instance of PD, running -rt as root. This cleared up some but not all of my GUI-related glitches on Linux.
My experiences were that ALSA+JACK worked best, but others (like Frank Barknecht) have reported that OSS (by this I assume OSS emulated by ALSA) worked better, or at least as good. I think. Again, search the archives, because that topic comes up very often on this list.
best, d.
Kuba Szczypek wrote:
Dear friends,
I have serious problem with my patch. It is hard to write it in proper English for me, but I have no choice - I must try,since I`m looking for help.
I would like to show (by scrollist) my list of titles 128 song names. But since I have small space for this on screen, I use only 8 lines in scrollist and "page up" page down" mechanism. I prepared patch who:
- first send 128 lines into memory of scrollist
- next I mark/unmark proper line.
But since I have only 8 line show on display , and list have 128 positions I often must change pages.
The problem is that changing pages cause drop. If I change very fast (by fader) from 0 to 127 (song nuber) many times and from 127 to 0 (again again) then I can see that screen is completely frozen and audio drop is very long (like about 3, 4 second). More moving I did = bigger drop and longer frozen screen.
When I do the same, but with fader on the screen, no problem there. Problem is only when I use external MIDI fader. (of course normally when I use any MIDI message it work great, problem is only with this setup: scrollist)
I tried change thread priority (pd and pd-gui) with many different combinations, but it not solved problem.
I use Ubuntu Studio with gnome, oss audio system. Pentium IV 2,4 512 ram Geforce mx 400 with TV out enabled.
I would like to ask also is oss better than alsa+jack or not? (I mean performance power).
Thank you
Paul Oakenfold - najdroższy DJ świata już 7 grudnia wystąpi w Hali Stulecia we Wrocławiu.
Zobacz więcej: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fgaleria.html&...
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Thank you Derek,
Two instances I alerady tried, but sending by osc that many messages give me the same result (so it isn`t problem with scrollist). Of course I can put all modules/objects/patch related to keeping_song_names_in_memory and putting_this_names_to_scrollist on second instance, but this is serious complicating life.
Question: Of course we all love PD, but is this system only for learning? If I need to build good, stabillity, without any drops in audio (also when I read or write to disk) patch for have fun from playing/creating music - is puredata good choice or it`s better jump to another environment (like max)?
I`m open to change since most important for me is finally finish project with great result, and not waiting for update.
-rt flag I have all time, and running under root give no difference. If I good understand jack adding latency?
thank you Kuba
Dnia 19-10-2007 o godz. 13:48 Derek Holzer napisaÂł(a):
Hi Kuba,
same problem as ever.... PD's GUI implementation is a bit crippled. My suggestion would be to run two instances of PD, one for the DSP running --nogui and one for the GUI running --noaudio. Communicate between via netsend or OSC. Check the archives for more tips on this.
As a workaround, you could also try a single instance of PD, running -rt as root. This cleared up some but not all of my GUI-related glitches on Linux.
My experiences were that ALSA+JACK worked best, but others (like Frank Barknecht) have reported that OSS (by this I assume OSS emulated by ALSA) worked better, or at least as good. I think. Again, search the archives, because that topic comes up very often on this list.
best, d.
Kuba Szczypek wrote:
Dear friends,
I have serious problem with my patch. It is hard to write it in proper English for me, but I have no choice - I must try,since I`m looking for help.
I would like to show (by scrollist) my list of titles 128 song names. But since I have small space for this on screen, I use only 8 lines in scrollist and "page up" page down" mechanism. I prepared patch who:
- first send 128 lines into memory of scrollist
- next I mark/unmark proper line.
But since I have only 8 line show on display , and list have 128 positions I often must change pages.
The problem is that changing pages cause drop. If I change very fast (by fader) from 0 to 127 (song nuber) many times and from 127 to 0 (again again) then I can see that screen is completely frozen and audio drop is very long (like about 3, 4 second). More moving I did = bigger drop and longer frozen screen.
When I do the same, but with fader on the screen, no problem there. Problem is only when I use external MIDI fader. (of course normally when I use any MIDI message it work great, problem is only with this setup: scrollist)
I tried change thread priority (pd and pd-gui) with many different combinations, but it not solved problem.
I use Ubuntu Studio with gnome, oss audio system. Pentium IV 2,4 512 ram Geforce mx 400 with TV out enabled.
I would like to ask also is oss better than alsa+jack or not? (I mean performance power).
Thank you
Paul Oakenfold - najdroÂższy DJ Âświata juÂż 7 grudnia wystÂąpi w Hali Stulecia we WrocÂławiu. Zobacz wiĂŞcej: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fgaleria.html&...
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 175: "What are the sections sections of? Imagine a caterpillar moving"
Czaruje smakiem, zapachem i kolorem. Ksi¹¿ka Magdy Gessler ju¿ w ksiêgarniach! Zobacz: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fprzepis.html&...
Kuba,
I was working on a similar problem last weekend (see http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/055005.html for the thread). If your problem is related to file i/o, and I think it might be, then any i/o that takes longer than one dsp block to complete will cause audio dropouts.
The good news is that you don't have to manually load everything into memory to avoid this; I had good success using a ram disk. This is better than pre-loading everything because your code doesn't have to change -- it still thinks it's loading from a hard drive. On OS X, at least, there are utilities that make setting up ram disks very easy (even allowing automatic read/write from disk for automatic persistence). Even without utilities, it's not hard to do on *nix (I don't know about Windows).
In many cases (all my cases), the ram disk speeds up the i/o enough to get things done in one DSP block -- thus, no dropouts.
I hope this can help you.
Phil Stone pkstonemusic.com
Kuba Szczypek wrote:
Thank you Derek,
Two instances I alerady tried, but sending by osc that many messages give me the same result (so it isn`t problem with scrollist). Of course I can put all modules/objects/patch related to keeping_song_names_in_memory and putting_this_names_to_scrollist on second instance, but this is serious complicating life.
Question: Of course we all love PD, but is this system only for learning? If I need to build good, stabillity, without any drops in audio (also when I read or write to disk) patch for have fun from playing/creating music - is puredata good choice or it`s better jump to another environment (like max)?
I`m open to change since most important for me is finally finish project with great result, and not waiting for update.
-rt flag I have all time, and running under root give no difference. If I good understand jack adding latency?
thank you Kuba
Dnia 19-10-2007 o godz. 13:48 Derek Holzer napisał(a):
Hi Kuba,
same problem as ever.... PD's GUI implementation is a bit crippled. My suggestion would be to run two instances of PD, one for the DSP running --nogui and one for the GUI running --noaudio. Communicate between via netsend or OSC. Check the archives for more tips on this.
As a workaround, you could also try a single instance of PD, running -rt as root. This cleared up some but not all of my GUI-related glitches on Linux.
My experiences were that ALSA+JACK worked best, but others (like Frank Barknecht) have reported that OSS (by this I assume OSS emulated by ALSA) worked better, or at least as good. I think. Again, search the archives, because that topic comes up very often on this list.
best, d.
Kuba Szczypek wrote:
Dear friends,
I have serious problem with my patch. It is hard to write it in proper English for me, but I have no choice - I must try,since I`m looking for help.
I would like to show (by scrollist) my list of titles 128 song names. But since I have small space for this on screen, I use only 8 lines in scrollist and "page up" page down" mechanism. I prepared patch who:
- first send 128 lines into memory of scrollist
- next I mark/unmark proper line.
But since I have only 8 line show on display , and list have 128 positions I often must change pages.
The problem is that changing pages cause drop. If I change very fast (by fader) from 0 to 127 (song nuber) many times and from 127 to 0 (again again) then I can see that screen is completely frozen and audio drop is very long (like about 3, 4 second). More moving I did = bigger drop and longer frozen screen.
When I do the same, but with fader on the screen, no problem there. Problem is only when I use external MIDI fader. (of course normally when I use any MIDI message it work great, problem is only with this setup: scrollist)
I tried change thread priority (pd and pd-gui) with many different combinations, but it not solved problem.
I use Ubuntu Studio with gnome, oss audio system. Pentium IV 2,4 512 ram Geforce mx 400 with TV out enabled.
I would like to ask also is oss better than alsa+jack or not? (I mean performance power).
Thank you
Paul Oakenfold - najdroższy DJ świata już 7 grudnia wystąpi w Hali Stulecia we Wrocławiu. Zobacz więcej: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fgaleria.html&...
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 175: "What are the sections sections of? Imagine a caterpillar moving"
Czaruje smakiem, zapachem i kolorem. Książka Magdy Gessler już w księgarniach! Zobacz: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fprzepis.html&...
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Fri, 2007-10-19 at 07:33 -0700, Phil Stone wrote:
In many cases (all my cases), the ram disk speeds up the i/o enough to get things done in one DSP block -- thus, no dropouts.
if i am not totally mistaken, the limit is not one dsp-block, but the buffersize used by pd. if a certain task cannot be finished within the latency time, there will be a dropout. if it would always be only one block, it wouldn't make any difference, what latency you use, right?
roman
Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de
Roman, you are almost certainly correct. Thank you for your excellent summary of PD dropouts and how to avoid them, and for clarifying my less-than-accurate description of one cause of them.
I think your post (the one previous to this one, the "dropout summary") should be in PDPedia under "audio dropouts."
Phil Stone pkstonemusic.com
Roman Haefeli wrote:
On Fri, 2007-10-19 at 07:33 -0700, Phil Stone wrote:
In many cases (all my cases), the ram disk speeds up the i/o enough to get things done in one DSP block -- thus, no dropouts.
if i am not totally mistaken, the limit is not one dsp-block, but the buffersize used by pd. if a certain task cannot be finished within the latency time, there will be a dropout. if it would always be only one block, it wouldn't make any difference, what latency you use, right?
roman
___________________________________________________________
On 20/10/2007, at 1.15, Phil Stone wrote:
I think your post (the one previous to this one, the "dropout
summary") should be in PDPedia under "audio dropouts."
Or in a section in http://puredata.info/docs/tutorials maybe with a
reference/link from http://puredata.info/docs/faq
Hallo, Kuba Szczypek hat gesagt: // Kuba Szczypek wrote:
I would like to show (by scrollist) my list of titles 128 song names. But since I have small space for this on screen, I use only 8 lines in scrollist and "page up" page down" mechanism. I prepared patch who:
- first send 128 lines into memory of scrollist
- next I mark/unmark proper line.
But since I have only 8 line show on display , and list have 128 positions I often must change pages.
The problem is that changing pages cause drop. If I change very fast (by fader) from 0 to 127 (song nuber) many times and from 127 to 0 (again again) then I can see that screen is completely frozen and audio drop is very long (like about 3, 4 second). More moving I did = bigger drop and longer frozen screen.
Maybe using speedlim or something similar can help you here. If you scroll fast from page 1 to 10, scrollist may try to show pages 2-9 as well, which you don't need to see anyway. speedlim may work against this. Or build your own speedlim: store your current selection in a float-object's right inlet, and bang the left inlet with a "metro 100" or so, using "change" to not pass the value on when nothing has changed.
I've never used scrolllist, but you should also make sure that it doesn't try to access the harddisk except when initializing. Harddisk access is a latency-killer.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
Hallo, Frank Barknecht hat gesagt: // Frank Barknecht wrote:
I've never used scrolllist, but you should also make sure that it doesn't try to access the harddisk except when initializing. Harddisk access is a latency-killer.
Oh, and maybe it's also because scolllist just is slow. Anyway, can't test here, because it always crashes, so I made a quick test patch using just symbol-atoms to display pages (sorry for umlauts, I just copy-pasted some heise-news as a test). It's based on an abstraction I sometimes use, which in the example is not very efficient (too many ookups) but still it seems to run very smoothly. See for yourself.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
Thank you Phil
Yes I have ram disk ready for use. What about play some music, adding effects and write it to hard drive in 8 tracks simultaneously? Since ram disk has limited capacity it must be written to hard drive. Then probably it will cause drop audio.
But my main problem now is related to understanding why I can do something by fader on screen without drops, and when I use fader on hardware MIDI then it give me hangs and drops.
Also I`m waiting for input from anyone who know PD and MAX and can give a comparing, with focus on possibilities to create complete audio (or video) tool, not only for learn and fun, but also for using.
I`m would like to have base in pd or other program who can give me this possibilities.
Of course I can be wrong, and you may suggest me (for example) to use external sequencer, external multitrack etc.
I seen on cycling`74 web page that they now recommending Ableton Live for sequencing. Question is why: because marketing or because MAX is too bad.
The same question I have related to pd. Please forgive me if I have not elegant form, but I have bad english and I`m frustrated too long (by drops audio).
Best regards, Kuba
Dnia 19-10-2007 o godz. 16:33 Phil Stone napisaÂł(a):
Kuba,
I was working on a similar problem last weekend (see http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/055005.html for the thread). If your problem is related to file i/o, and I think it might be, then any i/o that takes longer than one dsp block to complete will cause audio dropouts.
The good news is that you don't have to manually load everything into memory to avoid this; I had good success using a ram disk. This is better than pre-loading everything because your code doesn't have to change -- it still thinks it's loading from a hard drive. On OS X, at least, there are utilities that make setting up ram disks very easy (even allowing automatic read/write from disk for automatic persistence). Even without utilities, it's not hard to do on *nix (I don't know about Windows).
In many cases (all my cases), the ram disk speeds up the i/o enough to get things done in one DSP block -- thus, no dropouts.
I hope this can help you.
Phil Stone pkstonemusic.com
Kuba Szczypek wrote:
Thank you Derek,
Two instances I alerady tried, but sending by osc that many messages give me the same result (so it isn`t problem with scrollist). Of course I can put all modules/objects/patch related to keeping_song_names_in_memory and putting_this_names_to_scrollist on second instance, but this is serious complicating life.
Question: Of course we all love PD, but is this system only for learning? If I need to build good, stabillity, without any drops in audio (also when I read or write to disk) patch for have fun from playing/creating music - is puredata good choice or it`s better jump to another environment (like max)?
I`m open to change since most important for me is finally finish project with great result, and not waiting for update.
-rt flag I have all time, and running under root give no difference. If I good understand jack adding latency?
thank you Kuba
Dnia 19-10-2007 o godz. 13:48 Derek Holzer napisaÂł(a):
Hi Kuba,
same problem as ever.... PD's GUI implementation is a bit crippled. My suggestion would be to run two instances of PD, one for the DSP running --nogui and one for the GUI running --noaudio. Communicate between via netsend or OSC. Check the archives for more tips on this.
As a workaround, you could also try a single instance of PD, running -rt as root. This cleared up some but not all of my GUI-related glitches on Linux.
My experiences were that ALSA+JACK worked best, but others (like Frank Barknecht) have reported that OSS (by this I assume OSS emulated by ALSA) worked better, or at least as good. I think. Again, search the archives, because that topic comes up very often on this list.
best, d.
Kuba Szczypek wrote:
Dear friends,
I have serious problem with my patch. It is hard to write it in proper English for me, but I have no choice - I must try,since I`m looking for help.
I would like to show (by scrollist) my list of titles 128 song names. But since I have small space for this on screen, I use only 8 lines in scrollist and "page up" page down" mechanism. I prepared patch who:
- first send 128 lines into memory of scrollist
- next I mark/unmark proper line.
But since I have only 8 line show on display , and list have 128 positions I often must change pages.
The problem is that changing pages cause drop. If I change very fast (by fader) from 0 to 127 (song nuber) many times and from 127 to 0 (again again) then I can see that screen is completely frozen and audio drop is very long (like about 3, 4 second). More moving I did = bigger drop and longer frozen screen.
When I do the same, but with fader on the screen, no problem there. Problem is only when I use external MIDI fader. (of course normally when I use any MIDI message it work great, problem is only with this setup: scrollist)
I tried change thread priority (pd and pd-gui) with many different combinations, but it not solved problem.
I use Ubuntu Studio with gnome, oss audio system. Pentium IV 2,4 512 ram Geforce mx 400 with TV out enabled.
I would like to ask also is oss better than alsa+jack or not? (I mean performance power).
Thank you
Paul Oakenfold - najdroÂższy DJ Âświata juÂż 7 grudnia wystÂąpi w Hali Stulecia we WrocÂławiu. Zobacz wiĂŞcej: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fgaleria.html&...
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 175: "What are the sections sections of? Imagine a caterpillar moving"
Czaruje smakiem, zapachem i kolorem. Ksi¹¿ka Magdy Gessler ju¿ w ksiêgarniach! Zobacz: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fprzepis.html&...
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
Elektroniczne gazety w Twoim PC! WyprĂłbuj za darmo – kup prasĂŞ z domu i oszczĂŞdĹ pieniÂądze! http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fe-wydania.wp.pl&sid=67
To answer your questions shortly:
PD and MAX are both buggy, but in different ways. Changing from one to the other will get rid of some problems, and give you new ones. So it's really just up to you to choose....
As for multitrack recording, why reinvent the wheel? PD->QJackCtl->Ardour with LADSPA plugins inserted in the tracks (or using JackRack) gives you everything you'd ever need for most situations.
I've had some trouble with hardware MIDI stuff before. Best to just send it directly to the parts of the patch you want, and not send it to a GUI fader onscreen. Working around PD's crap GUI is one of the big challenges. You're lucky you're on Linux, the problem is much worse for OS X users.
If I had my vote, we'd talk less about beer, political correctness and world politics, and focus more on fixing this kind of stuff...
best, derek
Kuba Szczypek wrote:
Thank you Phil
Yes I have ram disk ready for use. What about play some music, adding effects and write it to hard drive in 8 tracks simultaneously? Since ram disk has limited capacity it must be written to hard drive. Then probably it will cause drop audio.
But my main problem now is related to understanding why I can do something by fader on screen without drops, and when I use fader on hardware MIDI then it give me hangs and drops.
Also I`m waiting for input from anyone who know PD and MAX and can give a comparing, with focus on possibilities to create complete audio (or video) tool, not only for learn and fun, but also for using.
I`m would like to have base in pd or other program who can give me this possibilities.
Of course I can be wrong, and you may suggest me (for example) to use external sequencer, external multitrack etc.
I seen on cycling`74 web page that they now recommending Ableton Live for sequencing. Question is why: because marketing or because MAX is too bad.
The same question I have related to pd. Please forgive me if I have not elegant form, but I have bad english and I`m frustrated too long (by drops audio).
Best regards, Kuba
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:51:51 +0200 Derek Holzer derek@umatic.nl wrote:
As for multitrack recording, why reinvent the wheel? PD->QJackCtl->Ardour with LADSPA plugins inserted in the tracks (or using JackRack) gives you everything you'd ever need for most situations.
I've happily streamed 12 or more tracks down to disk through Jack->Ardour. Create a multi-output [dac 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8...] and wire these up to Ardour inputs in Jack, let Ardour sweat over the disk buffering, it does the job very well indeed.
I've had some trouble with hardware MIDI stuff before. Best to just send it directly to the parts of the patch you want, and not send it to a GUI fader onscreen.
Some possible solutions:
- Decimate the controller bandwidth. When you move a MIDI fader many fader
boxes flood the channel with far more CC data than is needed. If you use [change] with a [metro] and [float] you can just catch the start, end and timed (100ms) samples between a fader movement, then interpolate it with [line~] where you need a smooth signal rate control.
- Use OSC with an external MIDI-OSC bridge, it's just nicer. MIDI interfaces
generally uses a UART with one register and interrupt driven I/O, which is primitive compared to OSC on a buffered socket.
- Never go *through* a GUI slider in Pd. If you must have dual use of mouse
and fader box then rig up a "dual gang" display/control. If the data comes from the faderbox then it's routed directly to the control destination through a [float] and the slider is updated periodically. If the data comes from the slider then it updates the [float].
- Build a sperate mixer interface in C. I used Qt to hack together a
very simple mixer board that sends UDP packets to [netreceive], and that works a treat.
Working around PD's crap GUI is one of the big challenges. You're lucky you're on Linux, the problem is much worse for OS X users.
If I had my vote, we'd talk less about beer, political correctness and world politics, and focus more on fixing this kind of stuff...
best, derek
Kuba Szczypek wrote:
Thank you Phil
Yes I have ram disk ready for use. What about play some music, adding effects and write it to hard drive in 8 tracks simultaneously? Since ram disk has limited capacity it must be written to hard drive. Then probably it will cause drop audio.
But my main problem now is related to understanding why I can do something by fader on screen without drops, and when I use fader on hardware MIDI then it give me hangs and drops.
Also I`m waiting for input from anyone who know PD and MAX and can give a comparing, with focus on possibilities to create complete audio (or video) tool, not only for learn and fun, but also for using.
I`m would like to have base in pd or other program who can give me this possibilities.
Of course I can be wrong, and you may suggest me (for example) to use external sequencer, external multitrack etc.
I seen on cycling`74 web page that they now recommending Ableton Live for sequencing. Question is why: because marketing or because MAX is too bad.
The same question I have related to pd. Please forgive me if I have not elegant form, but I have bad english and I`m frustrated too long (by drops audio).
Best regards, Kuba
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 42: "Destroy -nothing -the most important thing"
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hi Kuba,
Unfortunately, you're correct, the ram disk trick won't help with large data exchanges, because there's still a good chance it will take more than the period of one dsp block to read or write it. Audio reads have their own special problems, because of dsp chain recompilation (or something like that, I'm not an expert on this). Attempts have been made at a "threaded soundfiler", but I've never heard of a working product.
As for your problem with MIDI causing drops -- I've never seen that, and I use quite a bit of MIDI input. Could it be your MIDI interface?
Sorry I can't compare Max to PD for you; I've never been able to afford Max. The threading problems in PD are well known, and there are generally work-arounds, but not always.
Also, no need to apologize for your English -- you are communicating quite well. And yes, dropouts are VERY frustrating.
Phil Stone pkstonemusic.com
Kuba Szczypek wrote:
Thank you Phil
Yes I have ram disk ready for use. What about play some music, adding effects and write it to hard drive in 8 tracks simultaneously? Since ram disk has limited capacity it must be written to hard drive. Then probably it will cause drop audio.
But my main problem now is related to understanding why I can do something by fader on screen without drops, and when I use fader on hardware MIDI then it give me hangs and drops.
Also I`m waiting for input from anyone who know PD and MAX and can give a comparing, with focus on possibilities to create complete audio (or video) tool, not only for learn and fun, but also for using.
I`m would like to have base in pd or other program who can give me this possibilities.
Of course I can be wrong, and you may suggest me (for example) to use external sequencer, external multitrack etc.
I seen on cycling`74 web page that they now recommending Ableton Live for sequencing. Question is why: because marketing or because MAX is too bad.
The same question I have related to pd. Please forgive me if I have not elegant form, but I have bad english and I`m frustrated too long (by drops audio).
Best regards, Kuba
Dnia 19-10-2007 o godz. 16:33 Phil Stone napisał(a):
Kuba,
I was working on a similar problem last weekend (see http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/055005.html for the thread). If your problem is related to file i/o, and I think it might be, then any i/o that takes longer than one dsp block to complete will cause audio dropouts.
The good news is that you don't have to manually load everything into memory to avoid this; I had good success using a ram disk. This is better than pre-loading everything because your code doesn't have to change -- it still thinks it's loading from a hard drive. On OS X, at least, there are utilities that make setting up ram disks very easy (even allowing automatic read/write from disk for automatic persistence). Even without utilities, it's not hard to do on *nix (I don't know about Windows).
In many cases (all my cases), the ram disk speeds up the i/o enough to get things done in one DSP block -- thus, no dropouts.
I hope this can help you.
Phil Stone pkstonemusic.com
Kuba Szczypek wrote:
Thank you Derek,
Two instances I alerady tried, but sending by osc that many messages give me the same result (so it isn`t problem with scrollist). Of course I can put all modules/objects/patch related to keeping_song_names_in_memory and putting_this_names_to_scrollist on second instance, but this is serious complicating life.
Question: Of course we all love PD, but is this system only for learning? If I need to build good, stabillity, without any drops in audio (also when I read or write to disk) patch for have fun from playing/creating music - is puredata good choice or it`s better jump to another environment (like max)?
I`m open to change since most important for me is finally finish project with great result, and not waiting for update.
-rt flag I have all time, and running under root give no difference. If I good understand jack adding latency?
thank you Kuba
Dnia 19-10-2007 o godz. 13:48 Derek Holzer napisał(a):
Hi Kuba,
same problem as ever.... PD's GUI implementation is a bit crippled. My suggestion would be to run two instances of PD, one for the DSP running --nogui and one for the GUI running --noaudio. Communicate between via netsend or OSC. Check the archives for more tips on this.
As a workaround, you could also try a single instance of PD, running -rt as root. This cleared up some but not all of my GUI-related glitches on Linux.
My experiences were that ALSA+JACK worked best, but others (like Frank Barknecht) have reported that OSS (by this I assume OSS emulated by ALSA) worked better, or at least as good. I think. Again, search the archives, because that topic comes up very often on this list.
best, d.
Kuba Szczypek wrote:
Dear friends,
I have serious problem with my patch. It is hard to write it in proper English for me, but I have no choice - I must try,since I`m looking for help.
I would like to show (by scrollist) my list of titles 128 song names. But since I have small space for this on screen, I use only 8 lines in scrollist and "page up" page down" mechanism. I prepared patch who:
- first send 128 lines into memory of scrollist
- next I mark/unmark proper line.
But since I have only 8 line show on display , and list have 128 positions I often must change pages.
The problem is that changing pages cause drop. If I change very fast (by fader) from 0 to 127 (song nuber) many times and from 127 to 0 (again again) then I can see that screen is completely frozen and audio drop is very long (like about 3, 4 second). More moving I did = bigger drop and longer frozen screen.
When I do the same, but with fader on the screen, no problem there. Problem is only when I use external MIDI fader. (of course normally when I use any MIDI message it work great, problem is only with this setup: scrollist)
I tried change thread priority (pd and pd-gui) with many different combinations, but it not solved problem.
I use Ubuntu Studio with gnome, oss audio system. Pentium IV 2,4 512 ram Geforce mx 400 with TV out enabled.
I would like to ask also is oss better than alsa+jack or not? (I mean performance power).
Thank you
Paul Oakenfold - najdroższy DJ świata już 7 grudnia wystąpi w Hali Stulecia we Wrocławiu. Zobacz więcej: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fgaleria.html&...
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Czaruje smakiem, zapachem i kolorem. Książka Magdy Gessler już w księgarniach! Zobacz: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fprzepis.html&...
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hi kuba
there are some situations, where audio drop outs occur. if you know thesee, you could at least try to avoid them.
- fileIO: all objects, that read stuff from disk, will block audio,
until they finished executing. so do load all files beforehand. when you need load soundfiles during performance into tables, don't use [soundfiler]. miller once suggested using [readsf~] in a subpatch with upsamplsing, so it will load the sample faster than reading it in realtime, but not block dsp during loadtime.
-recompiling dsp-graph. loading patches or creating objects dynamically can cause audio dropouts. for performance situations open all used patches beforehand and switch (with [switch~]) all parts off, that you don't need. and do not use dynamic patching.
- many operations in one tick. don't use things like [100000(-[until].
since pd wants to process it in 0 logical time, it will probably will cause a drop out.
- sending too much data to [netsend]/[netclient]/[netserver]/[tcpsend]
etc. these objectclasses have a certain internal buffer (4kB, iirc). if the buffer is full, these objects will block processing of pd, until the buffer is emtptied again. try to send not big chunks of data in one go, but use kind of a drip mechanism to artificially limit the bandwidth.
if you are on ubuntu, make sure, that your user is in the group 'audio' and that you start pd with -rt. otherwise pd won't have higher priority, which will result in dropouts, whenever you scroll in the webbrowser or change the workspace etc. i don't have dropouts here, when switching workspace or moving a slider in pd and i am using ubuntu dapper. i think, if you encounter dropouts, while moving a slider in pd, this could be a sign, that your pd is not setup in an optimal way.
if you avoid above points and if you setup your system accordingly, your pd won't have any dropouts anymore.
roman
On Fri, 2007-10-19 at 19:36 +0200, Kuba Szczypek wrote:
Thank you Phil
Yes I have ram disk ready for use. What about play some music, adding effects and write it to hard drive in 8 tracks simultaneously? Since ram disk has limited capacity it must be written to hard drive. Then probably it will cause drop audio.
But my main problem now is related to understanding why I can do something by fader on screen without drops, and when I use fader on hardware MIDI then it give me hangs and drops.
Also I`m waiting for input from anyone who know PD and MAX and can give a comparing, with focus on possibilities to create complete audio (or video) tool, not only for learn and fun, but also for using.
I`m would like to have base in pd or other program who can give me this possibilities.
Of course I can be wrong, and you may suggest me (for example) to use external sequencer, external multitrack etc.
I seen on cycling`74 web page that they now recommending Ableton Live for sequencing. Question is why: because marketing or because MAX is too bad.
The same question I have related to pd. Please forgive me if I have not elegant form, but I have bad english and I`m frustrated too long (by drops audio).
Best regards, Kuba
Dnia 19-10-2007 o godz. 16:33 Phil Stone napisał(a):
Kuba,
I was working on a similar problem last weekend (see http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/055005.html for the thread). If your problem is related to file i/o, and I think it might be, then any i/o that takes longer than one dsp block to complete will cause audio dropouts.
The good news is that you don't have to manually load everything into memory to avoid this; I had good success using a ram disk. This is better than pre-loading everything because your code doesn't have to change -- it still thinks it's loading from a hard drive. On OS X, at least, there are utilities that make setting up ram disks very easy (even allowing automatic read/write from disk for automatic persistence). Even without utilities, it's not hard to do on *nix (I don't know about Windows).
In many cases (all my cases), the ram disk speeds up the i/o enough to get things done in one DSP block -- thus, no dropouts.
I hope this can help you.
Phil Stone pkstonemusic.com
Kuba Szczypek wrote:
Thank you Derek,
Two instances I alerady tried, but sending by osc that many messages give me the same result (so it isn`t problem with scrollist). Of course I can put all modules/objects/patch related to keeping_song_names_in_memory and putting_this_names_to_scrollist on second instance, but this is serious complicating life.
Question: Of course we all love PD, but is this system only for learning? If I need to build good, stabillity, without any drops in audio (also when I read or write to disk) patch for have fun from playing/creating music - is puredata good choice or it`s better jump to another environment (like max)?
I`m open to change since most important for me is finally finish project with great result, and not waiting for update.
-rt flag I have all time, and running under root give no difference. If I good understand jack adding latency?
thank you Kuba
Dnia 19-10-2007 o godz. 13:48 Derek Holzer napisał(a):
Hi Kuba,
same problem as ever.... PD's GUI implementation is a bit crippled. My suggestion would be to run two instances of PD, one for the DSP running --nogui and one for the GUI running --noaudio. Communicate between via netsend or OSC. Check the archives for more tips on this.
As a workaround, you could also try a single instance of PD, running -rt as root. This cleared up some but not all of my GUI-related glitches on Linux.
My experiences were that ALSA+JACK worked best, but others (like Frank Barknecht) have reported that OSS (by this I assume OSS emulated by ALSA) worked better, or at least as good. I think. Again, search the archives, because that topic comes up very often on this list.
best, d.
Kuba Szczypek wrote:
Dear friends,
I have serious problem with my patch. It is hard to write it in proper English for me, but I have no choice - I must try,since I`m looking for help.
I would like to show (by scrollist) my list of titles 128 song names. But since I have small space for this on screen, I use only 8 lines in scrollist and "page up" page down" mechanism. I prepared patch who:
- first send 128 lines into memory of scrollist
- next I mark/unmark proper line.
But since I have only 8 line show on display , and list have 128 positions I often must change pages.
The problem is that changing pages cause drop. If I change very fast (by fader) from 0 to 127 (song nuber) many times and from 127 to 0 (again again) then I can see that screen is completely frozen and audio drop is very long (like about 3, 4 second). More moving I did = bigger drop and longer frozen screen.
When I do the same, but with fader on the screen, no problem there. Problem is only when I use external MIDI fader. (of course normally when I use any MIDI message it work great, problem is only with this setup: scrollist)
I tried change thread priority (pd and pd-gui) with many different combinations, but it not solved problem.
I use Ubuntu Studio with gnome, oss audio system. Pentium IV 2,4 512 ram Geforce mx 400 with TV out enabled.
I would like to ask also is oss better than alsa+jack or not? (I mean performance power).
Thank you
Paul Oakenfold - najdroższy DJ świata już 7 grudnia wystąpi w Hali Stulecia we Wrocławiu. Zobacz więcej: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fgaleria.html&...
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ---Oblique Strategy # 175: "What are the sections sections of? Imagine a caterpillar moving"
Czaruje smakiem, zapachem i kolorem. Książka Magdy Gessler już w księgarniach! Zobacz: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fprzepis.html&...
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Elektroniczne gazety w Twoim PC! Wypróbuj za darmo – kup prasę z domu i oszczędź pieniądze! http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fe-wydania.wp.pl&sid=67
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One more is that I noticed drops also when I change GOP by doncanvasdialog message. Have you the same problems? I hope not.
Elektroniczne gazety w Twoim PC! WyprĂłbuj za darmo – kup prasĂŞ z domu i oszczĂŞdĹ pieniÂądze! http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fe-wydania.wp.pl&sid=67
PD and MAX are both buggy, but in different ways. Changing from one to the other will get rid of some problems, and give you new ones. So it's really just up to you to choose....
OK - so I will try to play with pd
As for multitrack recording, why reinvent the wheel? PD->QJackCtl->Ardour with LADSPA plugins inserted in the tracks (or using JackRack) gives you everything you'd ever need for most >situations.
I have alerady done hardware controller with:
- 10x6 cm screen connected by composit to my Geforce TV out
- one motorfader 10cm long
- some buttons, encoders, and pots.
Of course I can do next controller (for ex. Macie Control clone) but this will use more space on table, need additional money, need time for creating... , but if no possibilities by using pd`s writesf~ then I will think about it. Maybe I taken bad assumption that "I can create every tool what I can imagine in PD" - and with this assumption I created my hardware controller for this.
What you think about my idea to have control over synthesis, samplers, effects, mixer, sequencer and lastly multitrack by one unit hardware controller and one software patch - based on pd?
I've had some trouble with hardware MIDI stuff before. Best to just send it directly to the parts of the patch you want, and not send it to a GUI fader onscreen.
But Im on first stage of build my patch, where like you see now I need gui for my small screen in hardware. Its my interface. I started from create place for 128 songs, and when I try create list of names this songs (alerady created editor, copy, delete, save to disc and more functions) I have problems with drops. Fader on screen is in synchronize with motorfader (moving one give move on other) so it is simulation of my hardware. Why I can use pds GUI without drops, but by MIDI its problematic?
Working around PD's crap GUI is one of the >big challenges.
I see. Maybe I must to resign from song names? How I will create event list on screen since this need similar way to show data? Sorry for long mail, and for too many questions, but I waited one month and frustration cumulations go away and now I can write here. Please forgive me my boring problems. Just maybe someone give me an inspiration.
You're lucky you're on Linux, the problem is much worse for OS X users.
Great :-() Kuba
Paul Oakenfold - najdroÂższy DJ Âświata
juÂż 7 grudnia wystÂąpi w Hali Stulecia we WrocÂławiu.
Zobacz wiĂŞcej:
http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fgaleria.html&...
Hallo, Kuba Szczypek hat gesagt: // Kuba Szczypek wrote:
But I
m on first stage of build my patch, where like you see now I need gui for my small screen in hardware. Its my interface. I started from create place for 128 songs, and when I try create list of names this songs (alerady created editor, copy, delete, save to disc and more functions) I have problems with drops. Fader on screen is in synchronize with motorfader (moving one give move on other) so it is simulation of my hardware. Why I can use pds GUI without drops, but by MIDI its problematic?
Try using neither for a change: Build a test patch which drives your song change with a [metro] and then see, at which metro rate the dropouts start.
Working around PD's crap GUI is one of the >big challenges.
I see. Maybe I must to resign from song names? How I will create event list on screen since this need similar way to show data? Sorry for long mail, and for too many questions, but I waited one month and frustration cumulations go away and now I can write here. Please forgive me my boring problems. Just maybe someone give me an inspiration.
I think, it would be best if you would just post (part of) your patch. We can guess a long time about what possibly might be wrong with Pd's GUI and if Max would be better and what not, but we cannot change that anyway. However if there just is a bug in your patch somewhere, such a bug would be way easy to hunt down and fix.
And actually: I don't think, that displaying 8 lines out of a 128 line textfile in a patch window is a task, that is too much for Pd's GUI. This will definitely work if done right and will not give dropouts.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
Hallo, Frank Barknecht hat gesagt: // Frank Barknecht wrote:
Try using neither for a change: Build a test patch which drives your song change with a [metro] and then see, at which metro rate the dropouts start.
Attached is a slight variation of the ezmenu-test patch I've already posted which does this benchmark. I can change the file-display with a period of about 2 ms just fine, at 1 ms dropouts start to happen. With a period of 100 or 50 ms, which already is much faster than I can read, everything works perfectly.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
Phil - thank you for suggestion that it can be MIDI interface - I will check on another.
Andy - are you operating Ardour by mouse or by Hardware MIDI controller? Personally I looking for control by MIDI not by mouse and keyboard. But the rest of your "possible solutions" give me inspiration. I will analize, and try your suggestions. So thank you - I will be in contact.
Kuba
Paul Oakenfold - najdroÂższy DJ Âświata
juÂż 7 grudnia wystÂąpi w Hali Stulecia we WrocÂławiu.
Zobacz wiĂŞcej:
http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fgaleria.html&...
Andy - are you operating Ardour by mouse or by Hardware MIDI controller? Personally I looking for control by MIDI not by mouse and keyboard.
By mouse as a traditional DAW. Though I don't use remote transport functions I'm aware it does have a rich interface for remote control through Jack transport, SMPTE and MIDI.
Something you might like to check out for inspiration is the Trinity
http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT6071673793.html
It's open source and open architecture, so you may get some ideas on controlling transport etc since the Trinity has a minimal interface using a few buttons. Dan James informed me of this product and there is some discussion on the linux-audio list, perhaps you can even pull out the HD recorder engine of Ardour and run it sans GUI as your disk backend.
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:29:01 +0200 "Kuba Szczypek" qqqq268@wp.pl wrote:
But the rest of your "possible solutions" give me inspiration. I will analize, and try your suggestions.So thank you - I will be in contact.
Kuba
Paul Oakenfold - najdro_szy DJ _wiata ju_ 7 grudnia wyst_pi w Hali Stulecia we Wroc_awiu.
Zobacz wi_cej: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Fgaleria.html&...
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
You all give me big kick with positive energy. EVERY ideas are great and
I copied this into separate file for my personal use. I will try to set
up GNU for pd and based on earlier attached patch "eztest" Im in progress of changing my current patch. (Im escape from scrollist.)
You give me much more than I ask - I understood and known better ways of work with GUI. And maybe I will use also other software parallel with pd for easier life.
I try to write not too much this time but I would like to THANK YOU ALL! Please know that I feel your help (this help work!), your good heart, your effort. Definitely this list is very necessary.
When I will finish this small part of my patch I will write once again this subject with word "SOLVED".
Kuba
p.s.Frank - my patch is too too deep and ugly for public show now. I`m only 1.5 year with pd and maybe after 5 years my patches will be beauty and clarity like yours.
Nowa pÂłyta Billie Holiday "Remixed & Reimagined"
- legenda jazzu odkryta na nowo przez mistrzĂłw lounge music!
http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http%3A%2F%2Fcorto.www.wp.pl%2Fas%2Freimagined.html&a...
Hallo, Kuba Szczypek hat gesagt: // Kuba Szczypek wrote:
p.s.Frank - my patch is too too deep and ugly for public show now. I`m only 1.5 year with pd and maybe after 5 years my patches will be beauty and clarity like yours.
Hihi, thank you! My trick is: I'm only posting the small and nice patches here, not the ugly ones that I *really* use. ;)
But as a general hint: When I desperatly hunt for the mysterious bug, that always shows up somewhere in my patches as well, I've found it to be a great help to first make some theories about where the bug might be, and then test my theory with small patches. If these small patches work, then I can at least rule out this theory to be the wrong one. And if the small patches crash, too, then I know where the big patch may be broken. Testing theories is good.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
-
Andy Farnell -
Derek Holzer -
Frank Barknecht -
Kuba Szczypek -
Phil Stone -
Roman Haefeli -
Steffen Juul