Hello, interesting thread indeed...
2012/1/4 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca
Le 2012-01-03 à 21:47:00, Pagano, Patrick a écrit :
Here is btw another call about a Pd workshop BEK held back in 2005.
http://www.bek.no/projects/35-**visiblesoundaudibleimage?**locale=enhttp://www.bek.no/projects/35-visiblesoundaudibleimage?locale=enbut that was 7 years ago...
So, why don't you give more recent examples, to show some kind of continuity ? I know that in seven years, there can be a lot of change of personnel (and thus mentality) in an art centre... I mean, from my own personal experience (5200 km away from BEK).
The reason I put this was just because I wanted to see if they had anything about Pure Data at all in BEK so I put "Pure Data" in the search window on the main page at bek.no and that was one of few entry that showed up in the search result. I didn´t spend much time on that - antd didnt compare with other things thay might have done with open source resources. Also agrees and knows institutions and arts center changes with the staff involved.
Found this about the equipment/softwares in some studio of theirs - and really they don´t seem to have Pd or other open source resources there: http://bek.no/pages/fascilities?locale=en
Here is what they state under "sound" and "other":
*Sound* Ableton Live Amadeus Cubase Logic Pro Max4Live Soundbooth Wave Editor Wavelab *Other* Photoshop CS5 Illustrator CS5 Indesign CS5 Compressor iShowU HD Pro Max Msp Jitter
Also, preferably, something with more hours... that's 25 hours, probably
minus food time, let's say 20 hours. That's better than most workshops, but there have been significantly longer ones.
In a way it would be cool to just send back this e-mail exchanges to the
call-makers? - so they see how stupid this call is - and anti-productive.
Is it stupid or is it just a generous rebate plan from two software companies ? Just an honest question, no insinuations.
Well, I think so called marketing from software companies could maybe be that aggresive (that they can have some specific deals with people/institutions receiving generous discounts)... I don´t know about how the discussion goes. It would be an interesting topic to lift up. Are there huge rebate plans for instituions / schools / - and how are (generally) the conditions to receive these?
Here in Sweden I know that Steinberg has rather hefty rebates of up to 50% for students and academic institutions, but they don´t state any exclusive conditions for the academic institutions. I think Digidesign (Avid) has about the same deals. Institutions & associations that are not academic might be another thing with... (just raising perspectives, know nothing about this really)
All the best, Björn Eriksson
The important point here, it's that it doesn't cost anything to put pd
or supercollider on your mac or pc. you download it, install it and
use it! here we go.
so why those places (institutions, festival...etc), people... decided
to refuse art project that use free software (free and libre) or
create facilities, studios...space for artists, musicians,
students...etc that don't include those softwares? (specially in the
case of BEK, there are 100% aware of the existence of those software
as piksel & bek was one entity before).
it sound like a position against free software (more or less clear
depend the people/institutions...).
Obviously there is different vision of the world, I dunno about
revolution (not sure about that one either as sevy said) but it looks
like that there is people out there that are pissed off of the free
software (specially the freshly floss art community - around 5 to 8
years more or less) community excluding the artists and programmers
from the proprietary software community (is there such community?)
from their institutions(?), festivals, conferences...etc.
It could looks like a vendetta (unconscious?) related to some
frustration of not being part of the BUZZ ;-) (trying to make a bigger
one by refusing free software)...
Interesting threat indeed, many of you had heard already some max/msp
users complaining of not being able to come and present their things
in some of the festival/symposium/gig/conference...etc out there that
promote free software...(strongly recommended?)
Do you know any sociologist working on some of those issues? sound
like a very rich subject!!
cheers
Julien
Hello, interesting thread indeed...
2012/1/4 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca
Le 2012-01-03 à 21:47:00, Pagano, Patrick a écrit :
Here is btw another call about a Pd workshop BEK held back in 2005.
http://www.bek.no/projects/35-**visiblesoundaudibleimage?**locale=enhttp://www.bek.no/projects/35-visiblesoundaudibleimage?locale=enbut that was 7 years
ago...So, why don't you give more recent examples, to show some kind of continuity ? I know that in seven years, there can be a lot of change of personnel (and thus mentality) in an art centre... I mean, from my own personal experience (5200 km away from BEK).
The reason I put this was just because I wanted to see if they had anything about Pure Data at all in BEK so I put "Pure Data" in the search window on the main page at bek.no and that was one of few entry that showed up in the search result. I didn´t spend much time on that - antd didnt compare with other things thay might have done with open source resources. Also agrees and knows institutions and arts center changes with the staff involved.
Found this about the equipment/softwares in some studio of theirs - and really they don´t seem to have Pd or other open source resources there: http://bek.no/pages/fascilities?locale=en
Here is what they state under "sound" and "other":
*Sound* Ableton Live Amadeus Cubase Logic Pro Max4Live Soundbooth Wave Editor Wavelab *Other* Photoshop CS5 Illustrator CS5 Indesign CS5 Compressor iShowU HD Pro Max Msp Jitter
Also, preferably, something with more hours... that's 25 hours, probably
minus food time, let's say 20 hours. That's better than most workshops, but there have been significantly longer ones.
In a way it would be cool to just send back this e-mail exchanges to the
call-makers? - so they see how stupid this call is - and anti-productive.
Is it stupid or is it just a generous rebate plan from two software companies ? Just an honest question, no insinuations.
Well, I think so called marketing from software companies could maybe be that aggresive (that they can have some specific deals with people/institutions receiving generous discounts)... I don´t know about how the discussion goes. It would be an interesting topic to lift up. Are there huge rebate plans for instituions / schools / - and how are (generally) the conditions to receive these?
Here in Sweden I know that Steinberg has rather hefty rebates of up to 50% for students and academic institutions, but they don´t state any exclusive conditions for the academic institutions. I think Digidesign (Avid) has about the same deals. Institutions & associations that are not academic might be another thing with... (just raising perspectives, know nothing about this really)
All the best, Björn Eriksson
Yes, agrees Julien, it´s a position against free softwares. Probably a political position. (unconcious or not)
anyway - (and I know it was 7 years ago)
copypaste from BEK site what Derek and Sara brought up at BEK back in 2005 at the Pd workshop:
Workshop details:
Day one
Our decision to use Pure Data has been motivated by several factors. First and foremost is the need for a modular environment where audio and video processing is possible without the intrusion of negative elements such as a predetermined Graphical User Environment, cross-platform issues and restrictive licenses. We will discuss these issues, and why it is more important than ever that artists take Free + Open Source Software seriously as tools for creative expression.
********************** end copypaste
Maybe these issues are even more than ever ever important now 7 years later?
Maybe someone from BEK should speak up and clearify a little around their politics on software uses? Maybe it´s not here in this thread "the revolution" starts but I think it is always necessary to go to the source of the problem and really try to find out what is going on. Not a very very big deal maybe, but clearly this keeps us many on the Pd list a bit emotional about the blogpost call they did put up. (and obviously some people already have had some exchanges with the call makers in Milan already, so maybe that is already "researched" well enough). It´s not about the conflictual situation, it is more about the understanding, as I see it. If they prefer at BEK or other institutions to NOT work with open softwares, then it is really well to just know that. As I see it.
I don´t know any sociologists working on these issues. Google gives me the name of Yewin Lin as someone in this field. Here is a pdf adressing some of the issues http://www.ylin.org/sociology_FLOSS.pdf , and here is the website of her: http://www.ylin.org/
Surely this must be a rather big field - also with a lot of different perspectives on it - so would be cool if there is some more pointers someone has about these things.
All the best, /Björn Eriksson
On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 9:56 PM, APO33 info@apo33.org wrote:
The important point here, it's that it doesn't cost anything to put pd or
supercollider on your mac or pc. you download it, install it and use it! here we go.
so why those places (institutions, festival...etc), people... decided to
refuse art project that use free software (free and libre) or create facilities, studios...space for artists, musicians, students...etc that don't include those softwares? (specially in the case of BEK, there are 100% aware of the existence of those software as piksel & bek was one entity before).
it sound like a position against free software (more or less clear depend
the people/institutions...).
Obviously there is different vision of the world, I dunno about
revolution (not sure about that one either as sevy said) but it looks like that there is people out there that are pissed off of the free software (specially the freshly floss art community - around 5 to 8 years more or less) community excluding the artists and programmers from the proprietary software community (is there such community?) from their institutions(?), festivals, conferences...etc.
It could looks like a vendetta (unconscious?) related to some frustration
of not being part of the BUZZ ;-) (trying to make a bigger one by refusing free software)...
Interesting threat indeed, many of you had heard already some max/msp
users complaining of not being able to come and present their things in some of the festival/symposium/gig/conference...etc out there that promote free software...(strongly recommended?)
Do you know any sociologist working on some of those issues? sound like a
very rich subject!!
cheers
Julien
Hello, interesting thread indeed...
2012/1/4 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca
Le 2012-01-03 à 21:47:00, Pagano, Patrick a écrit :
Here is btw another call about a Pd workshop BEK held back in 2005.
http://www.bek.no/projects/35-**visiblesoundaudibleimage?**locale=en<
http://www.bek.no/projects/35-visiblesoundaudibleimage?locale=en%3Ebut that was 7 years ago...
So, why don't you give more recent examples, to show some kind of continuity ? I know that in seven years, there can be a lot of change of personnel (and thus mentality) in an art centre... I mean, from my own personal experience (5200 km away from BEK).
The reason I put this was just because I wanted to see if they had
anything
about Pure Data at all in BEK so I put "Pure Data" in the search window on the main page at bek.no and that was one of few entry that showed up in the search result. I didn´t spend much time on that - antd didnt compare with other things thay might have done with open source resources. Also agrees and knows institutions and arts center changes with the staff involved.
Found this about the equipment/softwares in some studio of theirs - and really they don´t seem to have Pd or other open source resources there: http://bek.no/pages/fascilities?locale=en
Here is what they state under "sound" and "other":
*Sound*
Ableton Live Amadeus Cubase Logic Pro Max4Live Soundbooth Wave Editor Wavelab *Other*
Photoshop CS5 Illustrator CS5 Indesign CS5 Compressor iShowU HD Pro Max Msp Jitter
Also, preferably, something with more hours... that's 25 hours, probably
minus food time, let's say 20 hours. That's better than most workshops,
but
there have been significantly longer ones.
In a way it would be cool to just send back this e-mail exchanges to
the
call-makers? - so they see how stupid this call is - and
anti-productive.
Is it stupid or is it just a generous rebate plan from two software companies ? Just an honest question, no insinuations.
Well, I think so called marketing from software companies could maybe be that aggresive (that they can have some specific deals with people/institutions receiving generous discounts)... I don´t know about
how
the discussion goes. It would be an interesting topic to lift up. Are
there
huge rebate plans for instituions / schools / - and how are (generally)
the
conditions to receive these?
Here in Sweden I know that Steinberg has rather hefty rebates of up to
50%
for students and academic institutions, but they don´t state any
exclusive
conditions for the academic institutions. I think Digidesign (Avid) has about the same deals. Institutions & associations that are not academic might be another thing with... (just raising perspectives, know nothing about this really)
All the best, Björn Eriksson
-- APO33 space of research and experimentation http://www.apo33.org info@apo33.org
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
.....again.....loosers try to keep alive....moneymaking is
gone...saving their lives....shed them....they have no weapens
anymore....we are 99%....we are going on.. let them RIP.
lets keep on working not wasting time
der.brandt
Zitat von "Björn Eriksson" miulew@gmail.com:
Yes, agrees Julien, it´s a position against free softwares. Probably a political position. (unconcious or not)
anyway - (and I know it was 7 years ago)
copypaste from BEK site what Derek and Sara brought up at BEK back in 2005 at the Pd workshop:
Workshop details:
Day one
- Introduction: Why PD & Why Free + Open Source Software?
Our decision to use Pure Data has been motivated by several factors. First and foremost is the need for a modular environment where audio and video processing is possible without the intrusion of negative elements such as a predetermined Graphical User Environment, cross-platform issues and restrictive licenses. We will discuss these issues, and why it is more important than ever that artists take Free + Open Source Software seriously as tools for creative expression.
********************** end copypaste
Maybe these issues are even more than ever ever important now 7 years later?
Maybe someone from BEK should speak up and clearify a little around their politics on software uses? Maybe it´s not here in this thread "the revolution" starts but I think it is always necessary to go to the source of the problem and really try to find out what is going on. Not a very very big deal maybe, but clearly this keeps us many on the Pd list a bit emotional about the blogpost call they did put up. (and obviously some people already have had some exchanges with the call makers in Milan already, so maybe that is already "researched" well enough). It´s not about the conflictual situation, it is more about the understanding, as I see it. If they prefer at BEK or other institutions to NOT work with open softwares, then it is really well to just know that. As I see it.
I don´t know any sociologists working on these issues. Google gives me the name of Yewin Lin as someone in this field. Here is a pdf adressing some of the issues http://www.ylin.org/sociology_FLOSS.pdf , and here is the website of her: http://www.ylin.org/
Surely this must be a rather big field - also with a lot of different perspectives on it - so would be cool if there is some more pointers someone has about these things.
All the best, /Björn Eriksson
On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 9:56 PM, APO33 info@apo33.org wrote:
The important point here, it's that it doesn't cost anything to put pd or
supercollider on your mac or pc. you download it, install it and use it! here we go.
so why those places (institutions, festival...etc), people... decided to
refuse art project that use free software (free and libre) or create facilities, studios...space for artists, musicians, students...etc that don't include those softwares? (specially in the case of BEK, there are 100% aware of the existence of those software as piksel & bek was one entity before).
it sound like a position against free software (more or less clear depend
the people/institutions...).
Obviously there is different vision of the world, I dunno about
revolution (not sure about that one either as sevy said) but it looks like that there is people out there that are pissed off of the free software (specially the freshly floss art community - around 5 to 8 years more or less) community excluding the artists and programmers from the proprietary software community (is there such community?) from their institutions(?), festivals, conferences...etc.
It could looks like a vendetta (unconscious?) related to some frustration
of not being part of the BUZZ ;-) (trying to make a bigger one by refusing free software)...
Interesting threat indeed, many of you had heard already some max/msp
users complaining of not being able to come and present their things in some of the festival/symposium/gig/conference...etc out there that promote free software...(strongly recommended?)
Do you know any sociologist working on some of those issues? sound like a
very rich subject!!
cheers
Julien
Hello, interesting thread indeed...
2012/1/4 Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca
Le 2012-01-03 à 21:47:00, Pagano, Patrick a écrit :
Here is btw another call about a Pd workshop BEK held back in 2005.
http://www.bek.no/projects/35-**visiblesoundaudibleimage?**locale=en<
http://www.bek.no/projects/35-visiblesoundaudibleimage?locale=en%3Ebut that was 7 years ago...
So, why don't you give more recent examples, to show some kind of continuity ? I know that in seven years, there can be a lot of change of personnel (and thus mentality) in an art centre... I mean, from my own personal experience (5200 km away from BEK).
The reason I put this was just because I wanted to see if they had
anything
about Pure Data at all in BEK so I put "Pure Data" in the search window on the main page at bek.no and that was one of few entry that showed up in the search result. I didn´t spend much time on that - antd didnt compare with other things thay might have done with open source resources. Also agrees and knows institutions and arts center changes with the staff involved.
Found this about the equipment/softwares in some studio of theirs - and really they don´t seem to have Pd or other open source resources there: http://bek.no/pages/fascilities?locale=en
Here is what they state under "sound" and "other":
*Sound*
Ableton Live Amadeus Cubase Logic Pro Max4Live Soundbooth Wave Editor Wavelab *Other*
Photoshop CS5 Illustrator CS5 Indesign CS5 Compressor iShowU HD Pro Max Msp Jitter
Also, preferably, something with more hours... that's 25 hours, probably
minus food time, let's say 20 hours. That's better than most workshops,
but
there have been significantly longer ones.
In a way it would be cool to just send back this e-mail exchanges to
the
call-makers? - so they see how stupid this call is - and
anti-productive.
Is it stupid or is it just a generous rebate plan from two software companies ? Just an honest question, no insinuations.
Well, I think so called marketing from software companies could maybe be that aggresive (that they can have some specific deals with people/institutions receiving generous discounts)... I don´t know about
how
the discussion goes. It would be an interesting topic to lift up. Are
there
huge rebate plans for instituions / schools / - and how are (generally)
the
conditions to receive these?
Here in Sweden I know that Steinberg has rather hefty rebates of up to
50%
for students and academic institutions, but they don´t state any
exclusive
conditions for the academic institutions. I think Digidesign (Avid) has about the same deals. Institutions & associations that are not academic might be another thing with... (just raising perspectives, know nothing about this really)
All the best, Björn Eriksson
-- APO33 space of research and experimentation http://www.apo33.org info@apo33.org
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
Le 2012-01-04 à 20:01:00, Björn Eriksson a écrit :
Here in Sweden I know that Steinberg has rather hefty rebates of up to 50% for students and academic institutions,
Max+MSP+Jitter used to be somewhat close to 1000 $, perhaps 800 $, I don't recall. I think I recall that the academic discount was well over 50 %. But many people would remember a lot more than I do, because I never used MAX.
What I see on their website now, though, is that Max+MSP+Jitter now sells for 400 $, and academic price is 250 $, a rebate of 37,5 %.
but they don´t state any exclusive conditions for the academic institutions.
It's very much probable that certain deals happen that are not stated on the website... I mean, it's very probable for any company. But that doesn't mean that those deals are exclusive. I don't know how often there are exclusive deals.
OTOH, there might be rabid fans just like Apple has people who feel sophisticated for waiting in line at -20⁰C for hours just to get the last iCantHelpIt 3000, and they don't get rebates for doing it, not even a black turtleneck. With the frequency with which we see Apple computers in movies and on tv in the last 15 years or more, it's also hard to imagine that all that product placement was really paid for.
Now imagine what can happen to intense fans of certain products when they get into positions of power, such as professorships and other forms of teaching that involve large fees, high reputations and a grading system in which the leader has lots of margin of manoeuvre to determine who win and who don't, without much departemental supervision.
| Mathieu BOUCHARD ----- téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 ----- Montréal, QC