I've tried getting into around with pd a couple of times before, this is my first concerted time. I've worked with a bunch of flow-charty programming environments in the past (Unreal Engine's kismet is the slickest I've come across - http://odedge.com/forums/ut3_kismet_04.jpg ) - pure data is taking a bit of getting used to (most of this is due to the fact that it does special things, some things feel a bit more avoidable, other things feel frivolously subjective :P ). Here're some of the things that stuck out for me (some might be due to ignorance on my part, I'd love to have things cleared up :) ):
1 - Inlets/outlets too small for me to accurately click on (touchpad) - checking on pd-dev, they can be visually reskinned, but their actual clickable size can't be changed. [ so I guess this one has been responded to, but might as well repeat it ] 2 - If I have an object selected (that's to say pressing buttons to edit text in it) I can't find any key-combination that will delete it - I have to deselect it, then press the mouse down on it, then, while holding the mouse button down, press backspace? (this is an uncomfortable manipulation on a laptop w/ touchpad) - on OSX at least, a shortcut like cmd+backspace would be quite idiomatic for this. 3 - I can drag lines from outlets to inlets, but not from inlets to outlets. 4 - is there a shortcut for deleting connections? something like ctrl+click would save me a lot of time. 5 - is there a way to type numbers directly into a number box? clicking+dragging, or pumping them in via a message, doesn't feel good to me. 6 - shortcut for opening help of selected item would be...convenient for me
I'm still working through the tutorials, and am enjoying the experience overall :)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2011-08-23 14:16, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
1 - Inlets/outlets too small for me to accurately click on (touchpad) - checking on pd-dev, they can be visually reskinned, but their actual clickable size can't be changed. [ so I guess this one has been responded to, but might as well repeat it ]
true.
i'm a long term user of Pd, and i usually don't use touchpads (with Pd, but in general as well) as they are a pain. it could well be that Pd could be optimized more for touchpads (the first thing i did when giving a workshop at PdCon 2 weeks ago was ask for a mouse)
2 - If I have an object selected (that's to say pressing buttons to edit text in it) I can't find any key-combination that will delete it - I have to deselect it, then press the mouse down on it, then, while holding the mouse button down, press backspace? (this is an uncomfortable manipulation on a laptop w/ touchpad) - on OSX at least, a shortcut like cmd+backspace would be quite idiomatic for this.
you can do that with a gui-plugin :-) however, your description is deliberatly awkward. e.g. there is no reason to explicitely "deselect" the object. you don't have to "press backspace while holding mouse down".
it is enough to "select" the object (drag the lasso over it), and once it is selected, press backspace (with mouse up or down)
3 - I can drag lines from outlets to inlets, but not from inlets to outlets.
i think this is actually a good thing. you can also not send data from inlets to outlets.
4 - is there a shortcut for deleting connections? something like ctrl+click would save me a lot of time.
sure?
i mean, i understand that it is more ergonomic to just hold "ctrl" and then click all those connections you want to delete rather than having to click-backspace every connection. you save a lot of clicks (well, keypresses), but i doubt that the _speedup_ would be significant.
5 - is there a way to type numbers directly into a number box? clicking+dragging, or pumping them in via a message, doesn't feel good to me.
click on the number box and type the numberbox. this is a runmode operation (that's why you probably missed it)
6 - shortcut for opening help of selected item would be...convenient for me
would be nice.
thanks for all those input!
fmadsr IOhannes
(sorry that you're getting this twice, IOhannes, I hit reply rather than reply to all the first time)
you can do that with a gui-plugin :-)
however, your description is deliberatly awkward. e.g. there is no reason to explicitely "deselect" the object. you don't have to "press backspace while holding mouse down".
it is enough to "select" the object (drag the lasso over it), and once it is selected, press backspace (with mouse up or down)
Ah, I didn't know that there was a difference between clicking on and drag-selecting. Enlightening!
3 - I can drag lines from outlets to inlets, but not from inlets to outlets.
i think this is actually a good thing. you can also not send data from inlets to outlets.
I acknowledge that we have a difference of opinion here, and can't think of a persuasive argument. Would be a good subject for user experience testing :P
i mean, i understand that it is more ergonomic to just hold "ctrl" and
then click all those connections you want to delete rather than having to click-backspace every connection. you save a lot of clicks (well, keypresses), but i doubt that the _speedup_ would be significant.
It's slightly physically unpleasant - going between a touchpad and backspace with my right hand is a little awkward.
5 - is there a way to type numbers directly into a number box?
clicking+dragging, or pumping them in via a message, doesn't feel good to me.
click on the number box and type the numberbox. this is a runmode operation (that's why you probably missed it)
Wow. Thanks for this. Possibly editmode, but also because there's no indication that the box contents are editable by pressing keys (no caret, &c.). Is there a reason it's disabled in editmode?
Thanks for your responses :)
S
2011/8/23 Stephen Lavelle analytic@gmail.com
(sorry that you're getting this twice, IOhannes, I hit reply rather than reply to all the first time)
you can do that with a gui-plugin :-)
however, your description is deliberatly awkward. e.g. there is no reason to explicitely "deselect" the object. you don't have to "press backspace while holding mouse down".
it is enough to "select" the object (drag the lasso over it), and once it is selected, press backspace (with mouse up or down)
Ah, I didn't know that there was a difference between clicking on and drag-selecting. Enlightening!
3 - I can drag lines from outlets to inlets, but not from inlets to outlets.
i think this is actually a good thing. you can also not send data from inlets to outlets.
I acknowledge that we have a difference of opinion here, and can't think of a persuasive argument. Would be a good subject for user experience testing :P
It may be good for didactic reasons to have the patching consistent with the logic behind it in that way. But from a purely practical standpoint, it could save some cursor-miles if we could connect from outlets to inlets too.
i mean, i understand that it is more ergonomic to just hold "ctrl" and
then click all those connections you want to delete rather than having to click-backspace every connection. you save a lot of clicks (well, keypresses), but i doubt that the _speedup_ would be significant.
It's slightly physically unpleasant - going between a touchpad and backspace with my right hand is a little awkward.
5 - is there a way to type numbers directly into a number box?
clicking+dragging, or pumping them in via a message, doesn't feel good
to
me.
click on the number box and type the numberbox. this is a runmode operation (that's why you probably missed it)
Wow. Thanks for this. Possibly editmode, but also because there's no indication that the box contents are editable by pressing keys (no caret, &c.). Is there a reason it's disabled in editmode?
Thanks for your responses :)
S
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
2011/8/23 tim vets timvets@gmail.com
2011/8/23 Stephen Lavelle analytic@gmail.com
(sorry that you're getting this twice, IOhannes, I hit reply rather than reply to all the first time)
you can do that with a gui-plugin :-)
however, your description is deliberatly awkward. e.g. there is no reason to explicitely "deselect" the object. you don't have to "press backspace while holding mouse down".
it is enough to "select" the object (drag the lasso over it), and once it is selected, press backspace (with mouse up or down)
Ah, I didn't know that there was a difference between clicking on and drag-selecting. Enlightening!
3 - I can drag lines from outlets to inlets, but not from inlets to outlets.
i think this is actually a good thing. you can also not send data from inlets to outlets.
I acknowledge that we have a difference of opinion here, and can't think of a persuasive argument. Would be a good subject for user experience testing :P
It may be good for didactic reasons to have the patching consistent with the logic behind it in that way. But from a purely practical standpoint, it could save some cursor-miles if we could connect from outlets to inlets too.
I meant 'from inlets to outlets' of course...
i mean, i understand that it is more ergonomic to just hold "ctrl" and
then click all those connections you want to delete rather than having to click-backspace every connection. you save a lot of clicks (well, keypresses), but i doubt that the _speedup_ would be significant.
It's slightly physically unpleasant - going between a touchpad and backspace with my right hand is a little awkward.
5 - is there a way to type numbers directly into a number box?
clicking+dragging, or pumping them in via a message, doesn't feel good
to
me.
click on the number box and type the numberbox. this is a runmode operation (that's why you probably missed it)
Wow. Thanks for this. Possibly editmode, but also because there's no indication that the box contents are editable by pressing keys (no caret, &c.). Is there a reason it's disabled in editmode?
Thanks for your responses :)
S
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 03:09:04PM +0100, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
click on the number box and type the numberbox. this is a runmode operation (that's why you probably missed it)
Wow. Thanks for this. Possibly editmode, but also because there's no indication that the box contents are editable by pressing keys (no caret, &c.). Is there a reason it's disabled in editmode?
You can do it from editmode by ctrl-clicking the numberbox and then typing (ctrl key puts you in run mode while it is held down).
Cheers,
Chris.
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
On 2011-08-23 14:16, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
3 - I can drag lines from outlets to inlets, but not from inlets to outlets.
i think this is actually a good thing. you can also not send data from inlets to outlets.
But you can send data to outlets from inlets. I'm saying the same thing that you do except backwards. Since that part of English/French/etcætera is commutative, mouse operations could be commutative in the same manner as well.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
1 - right. You can't fix this without refactoring the canvas_motion stuff in g_editor.c. I'm still not sure why these events are handled in c and not with tk bindings.
2 - There isn't a key combination that will delete it (and doesn't cmd-Backspace just delete the previous word anyway?). The best would be to have <ctrl-a> select all text, then you could just do <ctrl-a> and backspace.
3 - Hm, I never thought about that one. Btw- you also can't connect an object's outlet to one of its inlets with the mouse (though you can do it in other ways).
4 - Nope. There are lots of ways this could be improved. (Shift-drag for bounding box around wires instead of boxes, then Backspace, would be one way-- off the top of my head.) Elegant patch editing is not currently a part of Pd-- even the "Autopatch" feature in the "Edit" menu assumes that all objects only have a single inlet and a signal outlet.
5 - click in runmode (but there isn't any visual feedback).
6 - I guess you could add a key binding, but right-click and choose "Help" seems perfectly fine to me.
-Jonathan
From: Stephen Lavelle analytic@gmail.com To: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 8:16 AM Subject: [PD] notes/questions from a beginner
I've tried getting into around with pd a couple of times before, this is my first concerted time. I've worked with a bunch of flow-charty programming environments in the past (Unreal Engine's kismet is the slickest I've come across - http://odedge.com/forums/ut3_kismet_04.jpg ) - pure data is taking a bit of getting used to (most of this is due to the fact that it does special things, some things feel a bit more avoidable, other things feel frivolously subjective :P ). Here're some of the things that stuck out for me (some might be due to ignorance on my part, I'd love to have things cleared up :) ):
1 - Inlets/outlets too small for me to accurately click on (touchpad) - checking on pd-dev, they can be visually reskinned, but their actual clickable size can't be changed. [ so I guess this one has been responded to, but might as well repeat it ] 2 - If I have an object selected (that's to say pressing buttons to edit text in it) I can't find any key-combination that will delete it - I have to deselect it, then press the mouse down on it, then, while holding the mouse button down, press backspace? (this is an uncomfortable manipulation on a laptop w/ touchpad) - on OSX at least, a shortcut like cmd+backspace would be quite idiomatic for this. 3 - I can drag lines from outlets to inlets, but not from inlets to outlets. 4 - is there a shortcut for deleting connections? something like ctrl+click would save me a lot of time. 5 - is there a way to type numbers directly into a number box? clicking+dragging, or pumping them in via a message, doesn't feel good to me. 6 - shortcut for opening help of selected item would be...convenient for me
I'm still working through the tutorials, and am enjoying the experience overall :) _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
1 - Inlets/outlets too small for me to accurately click on (touchpad) - checking on pd-dev, they can be visually reskinned, but their actual clickable size can't be changed. [ so I guess this one has been responded to, but might as well repeat it ]
I once had written a zoom feature for pd, but it used a much different framework, so, it can't be ported to regular branches of pd (vanilla, extended, L2ork).
However, it would be possible to make one using a wrapper around TkCanvas objects, so that they pretend being in one set of coordinates while being in another set. It's not a small task.
If I were to do it, I'd use the poe.tcl framework, and I'd start from the unfinished tkzinc wrapper that you both can find in the DesireData distribution, and I'd look again at what «def Canvas item» does in DesireData. There are other ways, but that example gives you the tricks you need to know.
4 - is there a shortcut for deleting connections? something like ctrl+click would save me a lot of time.
it's click,delete instead.
5 - is there a way to type numbers directly into a number box? clicking+dragging, or pumping them in via a message, doesn't feel good to me.
click,digits,return.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
Looks like you already implemented a lot of the features in DD that I've been thinking about:
decent zoom capability
customizable fonts
balloon tips (although I hate balloons and used a Firefox-style notification area which can also be accessed by the user)
ttk::notebook in a centralized "Preferences" window
canvas/wire/box/etc. colors
snapping to grid
editmode crosshairs
Questions:
for customizable fonts, why did you let the user specify the size? If you just have a hardcoded box height and character width (for, say, DejaVu Sans Mono) and automatically size any custom font to fit those specs, then you can guarantee that the graphical diagram will be pixel exact across platforms, with the only variable being the _exact_ font size. (And since the font metrics are the only thing that cannot be guaranteed to be the same across platforms, then it should be fitted to the boxes, and not the other way around.) Granted you'd have extra space at the right side of the box when variable-width fonts are used, but that's a small aesthetic price to pay for guaranteed vertical wire connections on ancillary inlets.
what's the current status of Desire Data? There are a great deal of features that would be good to port to (any flavor of) 0.43, but I'm not sure how the work of porting stacks up against the work of just updating/bugfixing DD.
has anyone used tkzinc? On the one hand, all the new feature requests I've seen for future versions of tk canvas have the caveat that they are already implemented in tkzinc, (item grouping, transparency, full text rotation, etc.) but it seems like an unmaintained library at this point.
Since I now have a copy of DD compiled, might as well try out the keyboard patching magic... :)
-Jonathan
From: Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca To: Stephen Lavelle analytic@gmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [PD] notes/questions from a beginner
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
1 - Inlets/outlets too small for me to accurately click on (touchpad) - checking on pd-dev, they can be visually reskinned, but their actual clickable size can't be changed. [ so I guess this one has been responded to, but might as well repeat it ]
I once had written a zoom feature for pd, but it used a much different framework, so, it can't be ported to regular branches of pd (vanilla, extended, L2ork).
However, it would be possible to make one using a wrapper around TkCanvas objects, so that they pretend being in one set of coordinates while being in another set. It's not a small task.
If I were to do it, I'd use the poe.tcl framework, and I'd start from the unfinished tkzinc wrapper that you both can find in the DesireData distribution, and I'd look again at what «def Canvas item» does in DesireData. There are other ways, but that example gives you the tricks you need to know.
4 - is there a shortcut for deleting connections? something like ctrl+click would save me a lot of time.
it's click,delete instead.
5 - is there a way to type numbers directly into a number box? clicking+dragging, or pumping them in via a message, doesn't feel good to me.
click,digits,return.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 23:10, Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]
- has anyone used tkzinc? On the one hand, all the new feature requests
I've seen for future versions of tk canvas have the caveat that they are already implemented in tkzinc, (item grouping, transparency, full text rotation, etc.) but it seems like an unmaintained library at this point.
It does seem unmaintained but to what extent is it unfinished/buggy?
Andras
Not sure yet-- I tried looking at http://bugzilla.tkzinc.org but it timed out.
The screenshots look neat. I suppose I could give it a test drive.
From http://www.tkzinc.org/tkzinc/pmwiki.php?n=Main.Download:
"Tkzinc is available for Unix, Windows and Mac OS X platforms under the LGPL license. The latest stable version is 3.3.6+ (November, 2009)." -Jonathan
From: András Murányi muranyia@gmail.com To: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [PD] notes/questions from a beginner
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 23:10, Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]
- has anyone used tkzinc? On the one hand, all the new feature requests I've seen for future versions of tk canvas have the caveat that they are already implemented in tkzinc, (item grouping, transparency, full text rotation, etc.) but it seems like an unmaintained library at this point.
It does seem unmaintained but to what extent is it unfinished/buggy?
Andras
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hm... tried "demos/zinc-widget", and got a crash with demo #2 under "Use of open GL" when I tried to zoom in on the logo. -Jonathan
From: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com To: András Murányi muranyia@gmail.com; pd-list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [PD] notes/questions from a beginner
Not sure yet-- I tried looking at http://bugzilla.tkzinc.org but it timed out.
The screenshots look neat. I suppose I could give it a test drive.
From http://www.tkzinc.org/tkzinc/pmwiki.php?n=Main.Download:
"Tkzinc is available for Unix, Windows and Mac OS X platforms under the
LGPL license. The latest stable version is 3.3.6+ (November, 2009)."
-Jonathan
From: András Murányi muranyia@gmail.com To: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [PD] notes/questions from a beginner
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 23:10, Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]
- has anyone used tkzinc? On the one hand, all the new feature requests I've seen for future versions of tk canvas have the caveat that they are already implemented in tkzinc, (item grouping, transparency, full text rotation, etc.) but it seems like an unmaintained library at this point.
It does seem unmaintained but to what extent is it unfinished/buggy?
Andras
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, András Murányi wrote:
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 23:10, Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com wrote: [...]
- has anyone used tkzinc? On the one hand, all the new feature requests I've seen for future versions of tk canvas have the caveat that they are already implemented in
tkzinc, (item grouping, transparency, full text rotation, etc.) but it seems like an unmaintained library at this point. It does seem unmaintained but to what extent is it unfinished/buggy?
The biggest problem with TkZinc is not what looks like unfinished stuff or bugs, it's that although its API looks a lot like the TkCanvas that Pd uses, it's not compatible enough.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
----- Original Message -----
From: Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca To: András Murányi muranyia@gmail.com Cc: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [PD] notes/questions from a beginner
On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, András Murányi wrote:
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 23:10, Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com
wrote:
[...]
- has anyone used tkzinc? On the one hand, all the new feature requests
I've seen for future versions of tk canvas have the caveat that they are already implemented in
tkzinc, (item grouping, transparency, full text rotation, etc.) but it
seems like an unmaintained library at this point.
It does seem unmaintained but to what extent is it unfinished/buggy?
The biggest problem with TkZinc is not what looks like unfinished stuff or bugs, it's that although its API looks a lot like the TkCanvas that Pd uses, it's not compatible enough.
I think I must have sent my last message only to András, but I looked around at the tkzinc demos and found at least one obvious bug in the latest version. Additionally there was documentation that said rotation would work without using opengl, but on two machine I experienced a crash with the corresponding demo if I compiled without enabling gl support. (Worked fine with opengl enable, though.)
Additionally, one of the demos showing off graphics interaction and transparency was _extremely_ sluggish just moving a few rectangles around on the screen. Add to that another of the demos showing an air traffic control interface where the interval between graphics updates was about 1sec, and I would say I don't think the tkzinc canvas was designed with efficiency in mind.
But the grouping stuff and sensitivity levels are very cool. As is the svg tiger.
All I could think of is adding these gems to the "Put" menu array dialog:
Array Properties
Name: array1
Size: 100
[*] Save contents
Draw as: [] Points [] Polygon [] Bezier curve [*] Svg tigers
Put array into: [] New graph [] Last graph [*] Svg tiger
-Jonathan
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
4 - is there a shortcut for deleting connections? something like ctrl+click would save me a lot of time.
BTW, if you select a set of objects, then cut it, then paste it, copies of the objects will reappear where the originals were, but they will be fully disconnected from the part of the patch that was not cut.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 13:28 -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
4 - is there a shortcut for deleting connections? something like ctrl+click would save me a lot of time.
BTW, if you select a set of objects, then cut it, then paste it, copies of the objects will reappear where the originals were, but they will be fully disconnected from the part of the patch that was not cut.
And on Pd-extended, the pasted objects will be shifted down and to the right, so you can see them.
.hc
Le 2011-09-15 à 15:45:00, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 13:28 -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
4 - is there a shortcut for deleting connections? something like ctrl+click would save me a lot of time.
BTW, if you select a set of objects, then cut it, then paste it, copies of the objects will reappear where the originals were, but they will be fully disconnected from the part of the patch that was not cut.
And on Pd-extended, the pasted objects will be shifted down and to the right, so you can see them.
We're talking cut+paste, not copy+paste, so, what you say does not apply, because the originals are gone, thus you don't have to distinguish the new objects from the originals.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
On 08/23/2011 02:16 PM, Stephen Lavelle wrote:
2 - If I have an object selected (that's to say pressing buttons to edit text in it) I can't find any key-combination that will delete it
how could you distinguish between 'delete text' from 'delete object' then ? IMHO best would be "hitting RETURN" when text is edited makes object selected (like in completion-plugin) and then hit BACKSPACE -> done.
4 - is there a shortcut for deleting connections? something like ctrl+click would save me a lot of time.
(amazing) DD style keyboard objects/connections selection is the solution. that's not an easy task though.. or maybe like max: ALT+click/drag selects connections as well... oh but you need the mouse.. grr.
6 - shortcut for opening help of selected item would be...convenient for me
yeah, ALT+H on a (keyboard) selected object would open its help file.. that would be sweet =)
cheers, _y
On 08/26/2011 10:37 AM, IOhannes zmölnig wrote:
On 08/26/2011 01:04 AM, yvan volochine wrote:
yeah, ALT+H
Alt-H?? all systems i know use "F1" for help, except apple which uses "Cmd-?"
whatever shortcut is fine, the point is not having to use the mouse.
on a (keyboard) selected object would open its help file.. that would be sweet =)
esp. when doing "Ctrl-a, F1"
this would have to be checked of course ;)
cheers, _y
----- Original Message -----
From: yvan volochine yvan.pd@gmail.com To: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 5:11 AM Subject: Re: [PD] notes/questions from a beginner
On 08/26/2011 10:37 AM, IOhannes zmölnig wrote:
On 08/26/2011 01:04 AM, yvan volochine wrote:
yeah, ALT+H
Alt-H?? all systems i know use "F1" for help, except apple which uses
"Cmd-?"
On most of the software I've used "F1" is a shortcut for general help for the program-- not for specific results based on what happens to be selected inside the program. Case in point: Supercollider, which has "F1" for a help browser and some other key bindings for getting class help based on what's selected in the editor.
whatever shortcut is fine, the point is not having to use the mouse.
on a (keyboard) selected object would open its help file.. that would be sweet =)
esp. when doing "Ctrl-a, F1"
Which is a good reason why "F1" usually doesn't give variable results based on the state of editor.
As for "<Control-a>, <Control-h>", it could open all the help patches (similar to what <Cmd-i> does-- or at least did-- on a Mac).
this would have to be checked of course ;)
cheers, _y
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On 08/26/2011 04:51 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
yeah, ALT+H
Alt-H?? all systems i know use "F1" for help, except apple which uses
"Cmd-?"
On most of the software I've used "F1" is a shortcut for general help for the program-- not for specific results based on what happens to be selected inside the program.
indeed, and there are good chances that ALT+H opens the Help menu (if any in the menubar) which has an underlined 'H'. maybe Ctrl-Shift-H ?
Case in point: Supercollider, which has "F1" for a help browser
depends on your interface. on emacs (scel) it's C-c C-h =)
cheers, _y
----- Original Message -----
From: yvan volochine yvan.pd@gmail.com To: pd-list pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 5:11 AM Subject: Re: [PD] notes/questions from a beginner
On 08/26/2011 10:37 AM, IOhannes zmölnig wrote:
On 08/26/2011 01:04 AM, yvan volochine wrote:
yeah, ALT+H
Alt-H?? all systems i know use "F1" for help, except apple which uses
"Cmd-?"
whatever shortcut is fine, the point is not having to use the mouse.
Please don't use "F1" for this purpose.
on a (keyboard) selected object would open its help file.. that would be sweet =)
esp. when doing "Ctrl-a, F1"
this would have to be checked of course ;)
cheers, _y
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Fri, 26 Aug 2011, IOhannes zmölnig wrote:
On 08/26/2011 01:04 AM, yvan volochine wrote:
yeah, ALT+H
Alt-H?? all systems i know use "F1" for help, except apple which uses "Cmd-?"
WordPerfect for DOS used F3 for help.
I'm pretty sure I encountered a programme that put help on Ctrl+F5 or Alt+F9 or whatever, but I don't recall what it was.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
----- Original Message -----
From: Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca To: IOhannes zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 10:03 PM Subject: Re: [PD] notes/questions from a beginner
On Fri, 26 Aug 2011, IOhannes zmölnig wrote:
On 08/26/2011 01:04 AM, yvan volochine wrote:
yeah, ALT+H
Alt-H?? all systems i know use "F1" for help, except apple which uses
"Cmd-?"
WordPerfect for DOS used F3 for help.
I'm pretty sure I encountered a programme that put help on Ctrl+F5 or Alt+F9 or whatever, but I don't recall what it was.
Not all programs use the "F1" binding (Firefox doesn't seem to), but if they do, it's for a static program-wide point of entry that a user can depend on even if he/she doesn't understand anything else about the interface staring back at them.
"Static" is key here. The whole point of a standard interface detail like that is so that you don't have to assume that users know anything specific about your program in order for them to get help. So if a pd user has just selected an object in edit mode, then gets confused and wants to go back to that "F1" help entry point, but you bring up the selected object's help patch instead, you have just defeated the purpose of having an "F1" entry point.
It'd be like toggling what "Help -> About" points to based on whether or not an object is selected.
-Jonathan
_______________________________________________________________________ | Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Fri, 26 Aug 2011, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
"Static" is key here. The whole point of a standard interface detail like that is so that you don't have to assume that users know anything specific about your program in order for them to get help. So if a pd user has just selected an object in edit mode, then gets confused and wants to go back to that "F1" help entry point, but you bring up the selected object's help patch instead, you have just defeated the purpose of having an "F1" entry point.
I think that I recall that some programmes used Shift+F1 for contextual help, both by analogy with F1, and to leave the plain F1 reserved for non-contextual bindings.
| Mathieu Bouchard ---- tél: +1.514.383.3801 ---- Villeray, Montréal, QC
-
András Murányi -
Chris McCormick -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
hardoff goes bananas -
IOhannes m zmoelnig -
IOhannes zmölnig
-
Jonathan Wilkes -
Mathieu Bouchard -
Stephen Lavelle -
tim vets -
yvan volochine