Is it possible to integrate Pd with Ableton Live in a way similar to Max4Live, as a Live/Pd user (newbie really) this will be a very important issue in my work. As far as i know, Max4live includes many instruments that can be opened up in a Max canvas (similar to Pd) environment for editing, as well as allowing additional access to the inner workings of Live, http://www.ableton.com/maxforlive. I just wanted to verify if there is (or going to be) any movement to allow for such integration. i am already aware of Jack for sending audio directly from pd to live and vice versa(not sure about midi capabilities), but i'm refering to truly open possibilities that this type of integration will allow.
Thanks, Jeff
you can use a pd patch with max, using the pd~ object. so you can imagine pd4max4live... ;-)
Cyrille
Jeffrey Concepcion a écrit :
Is it possible to integrate Pd with Ableton Live in a way similar to Max4Live, as a Live/Pd user (newbie really) this will be a very important issue in my work. As far as i know, Max4live includes many instruments that can be opened up in a Max canvas (similar to Pd) environment for editing, as well as allowing additional access to the inner workings of Live, http://www.ableton.com/maxforlive. I just wanted to verify if there is (or going to be) any movement to allow for such integration. i am already aware of Jack for sending audio directly from pd to live and vice versa(not sure about midi capabilities), but i'm refering to truly open possibilities that this type of integration will allow.
Thanks, Jeff
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For sure but anyway max4live is much more than audio communication, it's a perfect integration or mix of two paradigms, where ableton live takes the more relevant advantages of traditional ergonomy and powerfull features developed for production: ergonomy mixing, editing, touching, saving not only sound bits but also -this is the point - control parameters, with no difference at all between the ones from live or max... This make production much more easy, faster and intuitive than any combination of actual existing opensource environment. In fact, to me, Ableton is actually providing all the ergonomy relevant for production which where not developped by Cycling74 but that every maxer were waiting for, and particularly a powerfull timeline strongly connecte to Max environment: this only a fusion and I think that commercial companies have done a real advance here (it was certainly a hard job to do that in short time, even if we were waiting for it since the beginning of Max - let say v. 0.2 ;) So, I suggest to not minimise this advance. To me, this step as big as the one did Digidesign when releasing the first version of Protools (which was not only considering audio features, but ergonomy, a so important point when talking about musical instruments...) - or the wellknown "Debian for everybody"... this require time, and, as you know, time is... So, the question is: how long should we wait to make it opensource ? I'm optimist even if we had to wait more or less 20 years for a opensource realease - Ardour or so - and linux is so young !). I'm patient and learned to be a philosophe, I still have the same problem for Patchwork (PW, PWGL or OpenMusic) working in linux ;)
Fred
cyrille henry wrote:
you can use a pd patch with max, using the pd~ object. so you can imagine pd4max4live... ;-)
Cyrille
Jeffrey Concepcion a écrit :
Is it possible to integrate Pd with Ableton Live in a way similar to Max4Live, as a Live/Pd user (newbie really) this will be a very important issue in my work. As far as i know, Max4live includes many instruments that can be opened up in a Max canvas (similar to Pd) environment for editing, as well as allowing additional access to the inner workings of Live, http://www.ableton.com/maxforlive. I just wanted to verify if there is (or going to be) any movement to allow for such integration. i am already aware of Jack for sending audio directly from pd to live and vice versa(not sure about midi capabilities), but i'm refering to truly open possibilities that this type of integration will allow.
Thanks, Jeff
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On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Jeffrey Concepcion jeffreyconcepcion@gmail.com wrote:
i am already aware of Jack for sending audio directly from pd to live and vice versa(not sure about midi capabilities), but i'm refering to truly open possibilities that this type of integration will allow.
I think you are asking on the wrong list... This question should rather be directed to the Ableton Live developers.
I really do not want to appear as a troll and do not want to open a can worms either but after reading the above quoted sentence I was not sure what you meant by "open". http://cec.concordia.ca/econtact/11_3/behles_ableton.html explains one point of view about what open means in Ableton context and I believe that jackd is actually a more open solution than M4L appears to be (albeit less user-friendly to some extent but that's debatable). I have not tried M4L so my knowledge of it is rather inexistent but while driving home last night I heard someone on the radio explaining more-or-less how it works. Far from "open", if I understood correctly. I guess you should follow Cyrille's suggestion, it sounds like a reasonable compromise.
On the other hand, I think that M4L idea is brilliant, especially as a marketing maneuver.
Out of curiosity, how different is M4L from Pluggo (I reckon Pluggo is discontinued, or am I wrong again?) and could not Pluggo be used in that context?
Thanks (and sorry if this happens to be off-topic. Feel free to respond privately)
./MiS
pdmaxisadoraflashliveunity-a-sauras.
From: pd-list-bounces@iem.at [pd-list-bounces@iem.at] On Behalf Of Michal Seta [mis@artengine.ca] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:55 PM To: Jeffrey Concepcion Cc: pd-list Subject: Re: [PD] Max4Live... How about Pd4Live?
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Jeffrey Concepcion jeffreyconcepcion@gmail.com wrote:
i am already aware of Jack for sending audio directly from pd to live and vice versa(not sure about midi capabilities), but i'm refering to truly open possibilities that this type of integration will allow.
I think you are asking on the wrong list... This question should rather be directed to the Ableton Live developers.
I really do not want to appear as a troll and do not want to open a can worms either but after reading the above quoted sentence I was not sure what you meant by "open". http://cec.concordia.ca/econtact/11_3/behles_ableton.html explains one point of view about what open means in Ableton context and I believe that jackd is actually a more open solution than M4L appears to be (albeit less user-friendly to some extent but that's debatable). I have not tried M4L so my knowledge of it is rather inexistent but while driving home last night I heard someone on the radio explaining more-or-less how it works. Far from "open", if I understood correctly. I guess you should follow Cyrille's suggestion, it sounds like a reasonable compromise.
On the other hand, I think that M4L idea is brilliant, especially as a marketing maneuver.
Out of curiosity, how different is M4L from Pluggo (I reckon Pluggo is discontinued, or am I wrong again?) and could not Pluggo be used in that context?
Thanks (and sorry if this happens to be off-topic. Feel free to respond privately)
./MiS
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I don't really know what Max4Live is, but I can say you've been able
to send/ receive audio to/from Pd using Jack for years. I believe
that the Pd jack implementation supports at least 64 jack connections,
so if you use another Jack-enabled app, you can have up to 64 audio
connections between them. People do this together with Ardour and
soft synths, I saw a very nice demo of this in 2007 by Lluis Carbonell.
The nice part of Max4Live is the GUI integration. You could do that
with Pd the way Sven Koenig does: he tiles his windows so Ableton is
on the top half of the screen, and Pd is on the bottom half.
.hc
On Nov 13, 2009, at 6:18 PM, Jeffrey Concepcion wrote:
Is it possible to integrate Pd with Ableton Live in a way similar to
Max4Live, as a Live/Pd user (newbie really) this will be a very
important issue in my work. As far as i know, Max4live includes many
instruments that can be opened up in a Max canvas (similar to Pd)
environment for editing, as well as allowing additional access to
the inner workings of Live, http://www.ableton.com/maxforlive. I
just wanted to verify if there is (or going to be) any movement to
allow for such integration. i am already aware of Jack for sending
audio directly from pd to live and vice versa(not sure about midi
capabilities), but i'm refering to truly open possibilities that
this type of integration will allow.Thanks, Jeff
-- www.avmachinists.org Puerto Rico based Art Collective/ Non-Profit Org _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
'You people have such restrictive dress for women,’ she said, hobbling
away in three inch heels and panty hose to finish out another pink-
collar temp pool day. - “Hijab Scene #2", by Mohja Kahf
i like the convergence but i do prefer pd over max/msp too gem&pdp over jitter but i will certainly will have to explore it and see what shakes
From: pd-list-bounces@iem.at [pd-list-bounces@iem.at] On Behalf Of Hans-Christoph Steiner [hans@at.or.at] Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:23 PM To: Jeffrey Concepcion Cc: pd-list Subject: Re: [PD] Max4Live... How about Pd4Live?
I don't really know what Max4Live is, but I can say you've been able to send/ receive audio to/from Pd using Jack for years. I believe that the Pd jack implementation supports at least 64 jack connections, so if you use another Jack-enabled app, you can have up to 64 audio connections between them. People do this together with Ardour and soft synths, I saw a very nice demo of this in 2007 by Lluis Carbonell.
The nice part of Max4Live is the GUI integration. You could do that with Pd the way Sven Koenig does: he tiles his windows so Ableton is on the top half of the screen, and Pd is on the bottom half.
.hc
On Nov 13, 2009, at 6:18 PM, Jeffrey Concepcion wrote:
Is it possible to integrate Pd with Ableton Live in a way similar to Max4Live, as a Live/Pd user (newbie really) this will be a very important issue in my work. As far as i know, Max4live includes many instruments that can be opened up in a Max canvas (similar to Pd) environment for editing, as well as allowing additional access to the inner workings of Live, http://www.ableton.com/maxforlive. I just wanted to verify if there is (or going to be) any movement to allow for such integration. i am already aware of Jack for sending audio directly from pd to live and vice versa(not sure about midi capabilities), but i'm refering to truly open possibilities that this type of integration will allow.
Thanks, Jeff
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'You people have such restrictive dress for women,’ she said, hobbling away in three inch heels and panty hose to finish out another pink-collar temp pool day. - “Hijab Scene #2", by Mohja Kahf
The Ableton / max integration is pretty awesome, and it will not be possible to integrate pd into ableton without the ableton source code or some difficult (and illegal) reverse engineering. And as far as "open" goes, ardour is more open without any integration with any other app (except, as Hans-Christof mentions, pervasively using jack to share audio) than live would be with both max and pd integration.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I don't really know what Max4Live is, but I can say you've been able to send/ receive audio to/from Pd using Jack for years. I believe that the Pd jack implementation supports at least 64 jack connections, so if you use another Jack-enabled app, you can have up to 64 audio connections between them. People do this together with Ardour and soft synths, I saw a very nice demo of this in 2007 by Lluis Carbonell.
The nice part of Max4Live is the GUI integration. You could do that with Pd the way Sven Koenig does: he tiles his windows so Ableton is on the top half of the screen, and Pd is on the bottom half.
On Nov 13, 2009, at 6:18 PM, Jeffrey Concepcion wrote:
Is it possible to integrate Pd with Ableton Live in a way similar to Max4Live, as a Live/Pd user (newbie really) this will be a very important issue in my work. As far as i know, Max4live includes many instruments that can be opened up in a Max canvas (similar to Pd) environment for editing, as well as allowing additional access to the inner workings of Live, http://www.ableton.com/maxforlive. I just wanted to verify if there is (or going to be) any movement to allow for such integration. i am already aware of Jack for sending audio directly from pd to live and vice versa(not sure about midi capabilities), but i'm refering to truly open possibilities that this type of integration will allow.
To Michal: i see your point on the "openness", and thanks for that link. i doubt Ableton will release it's source code, at least until they figure out how to "open Live", as Gerhard mentioned, and still have enough income for 100 employees. It'll be a good day when Live users will be able to customize it's GUI as necessary. As far as Pluggo goes, it has been discontinued but reappears in Max4Live :o, .
To Hans: Jack is definitely a great tool but, like i said, i don't know how it handles midi, or how about OSC? i have to read more on the subject before i can have an actual opinion.
To justin: Can ardour be customized as a performance tool (which is abletons key feature IMO)
Thanks for your input, fellas.
Jeff
Jeffrey Concepcion wrote: ...
To justin: Can ardour be customized as a performance tool (which is abletons key feature IMO)
No need for customization to use it that way, actually. It does not have the range of features that ableton live has, but I have used it successfuly as a source of realtime tweaked automations / a virtual mixing board / loop recorder and player.
One thing it has that in my knowledge actually exceeds what ableton offers is the versatility of the way buses / tracks can be inter-routed. Any number of tracks and buses can be mixed into the input of any others (each track and bus of course having configurable pre / post effects), without the artificial limits that I have seen with ableton live.
I made a set of ladspa plugins a while back to allow controling puredata parameters from ardour automations, it has some definite limitations usability wise but it is available from http://code.google.com/p/noisesmith-linux-audio/ or direct download my last (but not very recent) version from http://noisesmith-linux-audio.googlecode.com/files/ladosc.tar.bz2
It uses osc to send the parameter data so the ardour and pd processes can be running on two different machines.
The thing that impressed me the most about Max4Live (haven't tried it, just seen some videos) is that you can receive parameter changes of Live's controls within Max and you can send parameter changes to just about everything from Max to Live. So, you can have one automation control another, or have resizing one sample trigger a different control, etc. Sequencers don't have to control midi in the Max patch, they can control anything you route it to.
I tried doing this many different ways using Pd/Ardour, but I always found it too cumbersome and just recorded audio instead of automation. This is very limiting if you want to re-use automation recordings. It is of course possible with Pd/Ardour and Midi, just very cumbersome and bug-prone.
I suppose having Pd directly in Live would only be slightly easier than directing Pd through Jack and into Live (by the way, where did the Jack-VST plug-in go?? I've been looking for this and it is not included in the jackosx package) and you wouldn't get all the interface controls that Ableton gave to Max. I do remember hearing about a Live/python SDK, so if you could make a patch that gave access to those controls, I can see it being just as powerful, but without all the nice GUI objects that Max has.
Rich
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 4:41 AM, Justin Glenn Smith noisesmith@gmail.comwrote:
Jeffrey Concepcion wrote: ...
To justin: Can ardour be customized as a performance tool (which is abletons key feature IMO)
No need for customization to use it that way, actually. It does not have the range of features that ableton live has, but I have used it successfuly as a source of realtime tweaked automations / a virtual mixing board / loop recorder and player.
One thing it has that in my knowledge actually exceeds what ableton offers is the versatility of the way buses / tracks can be inter-routed. Any number of tracks and buses can be mixed into the input of any others (each track and bus of course having configurable pre / post effects), without the artificial limits that I have seen with ableton live.
I made a set of ladspa plugins a while back to allow controling puredata parameters from ardour automations, it has some definite limitations usability wise but it is available from http://code.google.com/p/noisesmith-linux-audio/ or direct download my last (but not very recent) version from http://noisesmith-linux-audio.googlecode.com/files/ladosc.tar.bz2
It uses osc to send the parameter data so the ardour and pd processes can be running on two different machines.
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I think you can all forget pd4live. after all, it's a commercial company.
When I asked Gerhard about it (a bit as a joke because I knew the answer),
he replied something like BLAHGRGAHGAGGGRRG!
which doesn't mean that a not-so-deep-but-similar integration can be made,
using osc, jack, or whatever you can do (never worked with Live). or
between pd and another program, and still get the same result. or program
the live part in pd, and you'll have pd4pd.
To Michal: i see your point on the "openness", and thanks for that link. i doubt Ableton will release it's source code, at least until they figure out
how to "open Live", as Gerhard mentioned, and still have enough income for 100 employees. It'll be a good day when Live users will be able to customize it's GUI as necessary. As far as Pluggo goes, it has been discontinued
but reappears in Max4Live :o, .To Hans: Jack is definitely a great tool but, like i said, i don't know how it handles midi, or how about OSC? i have to read more on the subject
before i can have an actual opinion.To justin: Can ardour be customized as a performance tool (which is abletons key feature IMO)
Thanks for your input, fellas.
Jeff
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 1:18 PM, João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com wrote:
I think you can all forget pd4live. after all, it's a commercial company. When I asked Gerhard about it (a bit as a joke because I knew the answer), he replied something like BLAHGRGAHGAGGGRRG!
which doesn't mean that a not-so-deep-but-similar integration can be made, using osc, jack, or whatever you can do (never worked with Live). or between pd and another program, and still get the same result. or program the live part in pd, and you'll have pd4pd.
Yea, tried that, there went about 2 years using a buggy, ugly, awkward sequencer for doing standard rhythmic stuff, instead of just using a tried-and-true piece of software. I constantly had to stop thinking about music in order to fix my pd sequencer, or add some common feature. Live is really put together well, so many things that you take for granted until you actually try to implement something similar yourself. I'm not saying it does everything or even close, but it does the simple stuff really well and saves the end-user/programmer from having to worry about it.
To Michal:
i see your point on the "openness", and thanks for that link. i doubt Ableton will release it's source code, at least until they figure out how to "open Live", as Gerhard mentioned, and still have enough income for 100 employees. It'll be a good day when Live users will be able to customize it's GUI as necessary. As far as Pluggo goes, it has been discontinued but reappears in Max4Live :o, .
To Hans: Jack is definitely a great tool but, like i said, i don't know how it handles midi, or how about OSC? i have to read more on the subject before i can have an actual opinion.
To justin: Can ardour be customized as a performance tool (which is abletons key feature IMO)
Thanks for your input, fellas.
Jeff
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Ardour and Ableton are really targetted at different things. Ardour
is a DAW for working in a recording studio, Ableton is a live
performance tool. It would be great if there was something like
Ableton that was free and based around Jack. Anyone know of anything?
.hc
On Nov 13, 2009, at 10:21 PM, Jeffrey Concepcion wrote:
To Michal: i see your point on the "openness", and thanks for that link. i
doubt Ableton will release it's source code, at least until they
figure out how to "open Live", as Gerhard mentioned, and still have
enough income for 100 employees. It'll be a good day when Live users
will be able to customize it's GUI as necessary. As far as Pluggo
goes, it has been discontinued but reappears in Max4Live :o, .To Hans: Jack is definitely a great tool but, like i said, i don't know how
it handles midi, or how about OSC? i have to read more on the
subject before i can have an actual opinion.To justin: Can ardour be customized as a performance tool (which is abletons
key feature IMO)Thanks for your input, fellas.
Jeff
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Using ReBirth is like trying to play an 808 with a long stick. - David Zicarelli
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 12:43 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at wrote:
It would be great if there was something like Ableton that was free and based around Jack. Anyone know of anything?
http://gabe.is-a-geek.org/composite/
it is in the planning stage...
./MiS
Michal Seta wrote:
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 12:43 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at wrote:
It would be great if there was something like Ableton that was free and based around Jack. Anyone know of anything?
http://gabe.is-a-geek.org/composite/
it is in the planning stage...
My somewhat hackish workaround was by using one running instance of ardour for each set of loops, using ladspa plugins to send automation events to pd via OSC that follow the looping, with audio routing between pd and the ardour instances as appropriate for interprocessing of the audio signals between the two, via jack.
Yes in effect Composite looks like a good start I'd like to test it asap, but actually I don't find in the project the features (I do not consider "GUI") which impressed Rich (and me) for some ideas that are not so clear until now: it needs some practice to make it clearer (in a explicit way, to few time to evaluate), Max4live is an intergation of 20 years of different cultures of computer music. If one consider what permits Max (or Pd), Max4Live is a system in a system, it's a new release of Max: Max X. And OSX is nothing but NextStep :D
Fred
Michal Seta wrote:
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 12:43 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at wrote:
It would be great if there was something like Ableton that was free and based around Jack. Anyone know of anything?
http://gabe.is-a-geek.org/composite/
it is in the planning stage...
./MiS
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On Sun, 15 Nov 2009, Michal Seta wrote:
http://gabe.is-a-geek.org/composite/ it is in the planning stage...
I hope that the guy has as much fun implementing, as he has planning.
There are lots of projects that starts with a spec and then... it's not fun anymore. It's often not even the fault of the spec.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
I heard that cash makes it more fun.
~Kyle
On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.cawrote:
On Sun, 15 Nov 2009, Michal Seta wrote:
http://gabe.is-a-geek.org/composite/
it is in the planning stage...
I hope that the guy has as much fun implementing, as he has planning.
There are lots of projects that starts with a spec and then... it's not fun anymore. It's often not even the fault of the spec.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
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In France we use to say "plus on est de fous plus on rit" (the more silly persons we are, the more fun we have") !
Fred
Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
I heard that cash makes it more fun.
~Kyle
On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Mathieu Bouchard <matju@artengine.ca mailto:matju@artengine.ca> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Nov 2009, Michal Seta wrote: http://gabe.is-a-geek.org/composite/ it is in the planning stage... I hope that the guy has as much fun implementing, as he has planning. There are lots of projects that starts with a spec and then... it's not fun anymore. It's often not even the fault of the spec. _ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801 _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@iem.at> mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list--
http://plenum.tumblr.com http://myspace.com/plenummusic
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On Mon, 16 Nov 2009, Fred Voisin wrote:
In France we use to say "plus on est de fous plus on rit" (the more silly persons we are, the more fun we have") !
On dit ça chez moi aussi, mais pour passer à travers un tel projet, il faut savoir se passer de ce dicton.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
-
cyrille henry -
Fred Voisin -
fred-ordi
-
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Jeffrey Concepcion -
João Pais -
Justin Glenn Smith -
Kyle Klipowicz -
Mathieu Bouchard -
Michal Seta -
Pagano, Patrick -
Rich E