Hello,
I am curious as to what type of structures everyone uses for controling data. There are probably millions of ways of answering this and there will always be new ways of thinking about it. As much as I try to avoid it I inevitably find myself putting one or two types of random components in a patch to control a variable paramater somewhere. This is because I want to get some numbers running through the system. This seems to be the quickest way to do this. With the patch I usually only interface with a mouse, and so that means if I plan on having multiple things happen, I need a way to automate them. I have buit a step sequencer, and a data recorder that will record atoms to a table and play it back in the same order at variable speeds. But I had a someone suggest that I look into chaotic systems as opposed to random systems. I am not sure what a chaotic system means though? It seems as though the way I am looking at it is more black and white, like there is either complete structure, or complete randomness. Can someone help me get out of this box I have put myself in????
Bradon~
Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Hi brandon,
In fact I was thinking about chaotic systems as I was reading the first part of your message. chaos is an interesting subject, and we can have systems that go all the way from chaotic to periodic, to even a fixed point by the change of a single variable.
I suppose the question is, what do you really want it to do? Do you want structure or randomness? Chaos is not random because its not diffuse, there is structure in that some numbers are more likely to occur than others. I just made some fractal plots today actually, to give you an idea about how complex the structure is... (attached)
The current release of chaos has 4 attractors, 2 3D and 2 2D. lorenz, rossler, ikeda, and henon. lorenz and rossler come from fuild dynamics models. henon from astrophysics and I'm not sure about ikeda. Right now you have to tweak the variables yourself to generate something from chaos to periodicity. The next release of chaos (coming soon) has (I think 15 new attractors) and allows you to search for variable sets with a certain amount of chaos your looking for (Thanks to Michael McGonagle).
Anyhow the current version is in CVS or you can get it from www.ekran.org/ben/research/chaos.tgz (includes windows and OSX binaries + source)
Anyhow if you do a search on chaotic and strange attractors you'll find lots of info.
Oh and a last note:
According to Benoit Mandlebrot, the fractal patterns we observe in nature are due to differential equations. These equations are the foundation of what is known as chaos mathematics.
chaotic systems are models of complex natural systems.
Some other techniques for generating a number of controls from one would be:
the PSO object I will soon release. It creates a population of random particles that try and imitate the input. You can control as many particles as you want, in as many dimentions.
Onother similar option is to chain a bunch of my x-y controllers together, then each controller tries to follow the previous, so you have a train of controllers following your movement. The more (slave) controllers you have, the more abstracted their movement will be in relation to your own gesture.
Anyhow play around with a few things and find out what does what you need.
good luck.
Ben
Hello,
I am curious as to what type of structures everyone uses for controling data. There are probably millions of ways of answering this and there will always be new ways of thinking about it. As much as I try to avoid it I inevitably find myself putting one or two types of random components in a patch to control a variable paramater somewhere. This is because I want to get some numbers running through the system. This seems to be the quickest way to do this. With the patch I usually only interface with a mouse, and so that means if I plan on having multiple things happen, I need a way to automate them. I have buit a step sequencer, and a data recorder that will record atoms to a table and play it back in the same order at variable speeds. But I had a someone suggest that I look into chaotic systems as opposed to random systems. I am not sure what a chaotic system means though? It seems as though the way I am looking at it is more black and white, like there is either complete structure, or complete randomness. Can someone help me get out of this box I have put myself in????
Bradon~
Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
My naive way of creating pseudorandom systems is to have a bunch of "LFOs" running at different speeds. The more "LFOs" you have, the more "random" it gets, even though it's still somewhat cyclical.
On Sat, Aug 09, 2003 at 04:13:08PM -0700, Bradon Webb wrote:
Hello,
I am curious as to what type of structures everyone uses for controling data. There are probably millions of ways of answering this and there will always be new ways of thinking about it. As much as I try to avoid it I inevitably find myself putting one or two types of random components in a patch to control a variable paramater somewhere. This is because I want to get some numbers running through the system. This seems to be the quickest way to do this. With the patch I usually only interface with a mouse, and so that means if I plan on having multiple things happen, I need a way to automate them. I have buit a step sequencer, and a data recorder that will record atoms to a table and play it back in the same order at variable speeds. But I had a someone suggest that I look into chaotic systems as opposed to random systems. I am not sure what a chaotic system means though? It seems as though the way I am looking at it is more black and white, like there is either complete structure, or complete randomness. Can someone help me get out of this box I have put myself in????
Bradon~
Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
Hallo, matthijs@devdsp.net hat gesagt: // matthijs@devdsp.net wrote:
My naive way of creating pseudorandom systems is to have a bunch of "LFOs" running at different speeds. The more "LFOs" you have, the more "random" it gets, even though it's still somewhat cyclical.
You also might want to have a look at Markov chains theory. Basically those are random variations that have a memory of their past. There are some simple examples of that in the docs, but I'm still waiting for Mark "Junklight" Williamson to release his Markov objects, he talked about here once (hint, hint: mark, do you copy?? ;)
ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
Where would those examples be exactly? A (quick - ok) scan of the docs/ directory yields nothing?
On Sun, Aug 10, 2003 at 12:50:00PM +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, matthijs@devdsp.net hat gesagt: // matthijs@devdsp.net wrote:
My naive way of creating pseudorandom systems is to have a bunch of "LFOs" running at different speeds. The more "LFOs" you have, the more "random" it gets, even though it's still somewhat cyclical.
You also might want to have a look at Markov chains theory. Basically those are random variations that have a memory of their past. There are some simple examples of that in the docs, but I'm still waiting for Mark "Junklight" Williamson to release his Markov objects, he talked about here once (hint, hint: mark, do you copy?? ;)
ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
Hallo, matthijs@devdsp.net hat gesagt: // matthijs@devdsp.net wrote:
Where would those examples be exactly? A (quick - ok) scan of the docs/ directory yields nothing?
Here they are in: /usr/lib/pd/doc/2.control.examples/21.markov.chain.pd
ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
i've had some good results sequencing, in fact handing alot of my event automation over to markov chains at times. being so easily 'weight-able' it's a good place to get over 'randomness' and start gardening tendency and wildness into event structures. phenomenologically speaking, even randomness can become repetitive.
frank, you mentioned markov objects? yes i remember and always *coughint* wondered what happened to that >>**!PROMISE!**<< mark made about releasing them..
de/
pps. the chaos extern looks v' nice. thx ben.
On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:16:04 +0200 Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
//Hallo, //matthijs@devdsp.net hat gesagt: // matthijs@devdsp.net wrote: // //> Where would those examples be exactly? A (quick - ok) scan of the docs/ //> directory yields nothing? // //Here they are in: ///usr/lib/pd/doc/2.control.examples/21.markov.chain.pd // //ciao //-- // Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__ // //_______________________________________________ //PD-list mailing list //PD-list@iem.at //http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list // //
//-->
nick -> delire home -> http://selectparks.net key -> http://selectparks.net/jkey.txt
i've had some good results sequencing, in fact handing alot of my event automation over to markov chains at times. being so easily 'weight-able' it's a good place to get over 'randomness' and start gardening tendency and wildness into event structures. phenomenologically speaking, even randomness can become repetitive.
frank, you mentioned markov objects? yes i remember and always *coughint* wondered what happened to that >>**!PROMISE!**<< mark made about releasing them..
de/
pps. the chaos extern looks v' nice. thx ben.
On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:16:04 +0200 Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
//Hallo, //matthijs@devdsp.net hat gesagt: // matthijs@devdsp.net wrote: // //> Where would those examples be exactly? A (quick - ok) scan of the docs/ //> directory yields nothing? // //Here they are in: ///usr/lib/pd/doc/2.control.examples/21.markov.chain.pd // //ciao //-- // Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__ // //_______________________________________________ //PD-list mailing list //PD-list@iem.at //http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list // //
//-->
nick -> delire home -> http://selectparks.net key -> http://selectparks.net/jkey.txt
Thanks!
Being the dumb ass that I am, I of course neglected to look in the control examples folder.
It looks pretty cool, btw - something I'd really like to sink my teeth in.
On Sun, Aug 10, 2003 at 02:16:04PM +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, matthijs@devdsp.net hat gesagt: // matthijs@devdsp.net wrote:
Where would those examples be exactly? A (quick - ok) scan of the docs/ directory yields nothing?
Here they are in: /usr/lib/pd/doc/2.control.examples/21.markov.chain.pd
ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
-
ben＠ekran.org -
Bradon Webb -
delire -
Frank Barknecht -
matthijs＠devdsp.net -
Søren Bovbjerg