Let's keep this on the list, it could be helpful to others. On Wednesday, Apr 7, 2004, at 19:39 America/New_York, chun lee wrote:
Hi there:
Thanks for your reply:)
What happened to #2? ;) Anyway, this depends on where and how you installed Pd. If you used the installer, then the externals are installed into /usr/local/lib/pd/extra.
Ya, #2 was deleted cause it sounded a bit silly..... Anyway, I figured
out the externals are all at '/usr/local/lib/pd/extra' but the folder is
hidden in the Finder. Is there a way that I can gain access to these folders
via the Finder? Or could I use the Terminal to copy the /extra folder to somewhere that I have access to and then change the file path in Pd? I
will give it a try...
There are two ways that I know to open hidden folders with the GUI.
First in the Open panel, you can just type it and hit enter. Or from
the Terminal.app, you can do: "open /usr/local/lib/pd/extra"
.hc
pdb is a great resource, but unfortunately, since it has to be
manually updated, it doesn't get updated much. So it shouldn't be taken as definitive. The easiest way to find out what objects are installed on your computer is to look in the above mentioned externals directory..hc
Ok, now I know.
Many thanks
Yours
CHUN
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an
idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps
it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the
possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of
it."
- Thomas Jefferson
Hi,
A Mac user suggested that it would be more "mac like" to put the whole Pd distribution into one single Application directory instead of using the unix file system standard.
I think technically it is feasable, what do you think about producing the Mac packages that way ?
Guenter
On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Let's keep this on the list, it could be helpful to others.
On Wednesday, Apr 7, 2004, at 19:39 America/New_York, chun lee wrote:
Hi there:
Thanks for your reply:)
What happened to #2? ;) Anyway, this depends on where and how you installed Pd. If you used the installer, then the externals are installed into /usr/local/lib/pd/extra.
Ya, #2 was deleted cause it sounded a bit silly..... Anyway, I figured out the externals are all at '/usr/local/lib/pd/extra' but the folder is hidden in the Finder. Is there a way that I can gain access to these folders via the Finder? Or could I use the Terminal to copy the /extra folder to somewhere that I have access to and then change the file path in Pd? I will give it a try...
There are two ways that I know to open hidden folders with the GUI. First in the Open panel, you can just type it and hit enter. Or from the Terminal.app, you can do: "open /usr/local/lib/pd/extra"
.hc
pdb is a great resource, but unfortunately, since it has to be manually updated, it doesn't get updated much. So it shouldn't be taken as definitive. The easiest way to find out what objects are installed on your computer is to look in the above mentioned externals directory.
.hc
Ok, now I know.
Many thanks
Yours
CHUN
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it."
- Thomas Jefferson
A Mac user suggested that it would be more "mac like" to put the whole Pd distribution into one single Application directory instead of using the unix file system standard.
Hi Guenter, there's already the uPDated package which conforms to the OSX way of things.
best, Thomas
On Thursday, Apr 8, 2004, at 05:26 America/New_York, Thomas Grill wrote:
A Mac user suggested that it would be more "mac like" to put the whole Pd distribution into one single Application directory instead of using the unix file system standard.
Hi Guenter, there's already the uPDated package which conforms to the OSX way of
things.
The uPDated package does have a double-clickable .app package, but I
would not say that it conforms to the MacOS X way. First off, when it
launches, there are two icons, one for the Platypus system that it uses
with a Pd icon, and one for the Wish Shell with the standard Wish Shell
icon. This is actually more confusing than just having the Wish Shell
icon running because clicking on the Pd icon doesn't take you to Pd,
but just the launcher, which seems to do nothing once Wish Shell is
running. Plus, Pd is still labeled "Wish" once its running. It also
suffers from MacOS X not wanting to show the /doc/ directory.
The AppMain.tcl script is the way things need to be done in order to
have Pd behave like a MacOS X application. Check out this nice, free
sound editor to see an good example of AppMain.tcl in action:
http://www.speech.kth.se/wavesurfer/ Actually, it is probably a good
place to look to see how a number of GUI things should be done with
Tcl, things like key bindings, etc.
.hc
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are
deliberately throwing it away
to benefit those who profit from scarcity."
-John Gilmore
On Thursday, Apr 8, 2004, at 10:11 America/New_York, Hans-Christoph
Steiner wrote:
On Thursday, Apr 8, 2004, at 05:26 America/New_York, Thomas Grill
wrote:A Mac user suggested that it would be more "mac like" to put the
whole Pd distribution into one single Application directory instead of using the unix file system standard.Hi Guenter, there's already the uPDated package which conforms to the OSX way of
things.The uPDated package does have a double-clickable .app package, but I
would not say that it conforms to the MacOS X way. First off, when it
launches, there are two icons, one for the Platypus system that it
uses with a Pd icon, and one for the Wish Shell with the standard Wish
Shell icon. This is actually more confusing than just having the Wish
Shell icon running because clicking on the Pd icon doesn't take you to
Pd, but just the launcher, which seems to do nothing once Wish Shell
is running. Plus, Pd is still labeled "Wish" once its running. It
also suffers from MacOS X not wanting to show the /doc/ directory.The AppMain.tcl script is the way things need to be done in order to
have Pd behave like a MacOS X application. Check out this nice, free
sound editor to see an good example of AppMain.tcl in action:
http://www.speech.kth.se/wavesurfer/ Actually, it is probably a
good place to look to see how a number of GUI things should be done
with Tcl, things like key bindings, etc.
I just downloaded the new version of Wavesurfer, and it now displays
"Wishkit" as the name of the app under MacOS X, which is unfortunate.
I am pretty sure it used to say "Wavesurfer".
The way they have done the console, using tkcon, is quite nice and I
think should be replicated in Pd. Its a fully featured console that
also will show all the messages.
.hc
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to
realize his wishes.
Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish.
-William Carlos Williams
hi
The uPDated package does have a double-clickable .app package, but I would not say that it conforms to the MacOS X way. First off, when it launches, there are two icons, one for the Platypus system that it uses with a Pd icon, and one for the Wish Shell with the standard Wish Shell icon. This is actually more confusing than just having the Wish Shell icon running because clicking on the Pd icon doesn't take you to Pd, but just the launcher, which seems to do nothing once Wish Shell is running.
I have this fixed now, I'll upload it soon, it's still hacky although, it is done by killing one of the processes in the script ;)
Plus, Pd is still labeled "Wish" once its running.
and this is not fixed
It also suffers from MacOS X not wanting to show the /doc/ directory.
oop, this should be fixed in the version on the server
The AppMain.tcl script is the way things need to be done in order to have Pd behave like a MacOS X application.
you're right, but I couldn't figure how to doit the wavesurfer way without modifying the pd source. The paltypus way has its advantages:
- you can switch your pd version without recompiling (s long as it
works with your tcl/tk)
- you can do stuff in the startup script. The new version has a quite
cool feature: it scans directories recursively, so that you can install externals, abstractons, libraries and help files via drag and drop :)
...
gerard
On Thursday, Apr 8, 2004, at 12:47 America/New_York, 0001 wrote:
hi
The uPDated package does have a double-clickable .app package, but I
would not say that it conforms to the MacOS X way. First off, when
it launches, there are two icons, one for the Platypus system that it
uses with a Pd icon, and one for the Wish Shell with the standard
Wish Shell icon. This is actually more confusing than just having
the Wish Shell icon running because clicking on the Pd icon doesn't
take you to Pd, but just the launcher, which seems to do nothing once
Wish Shell is running.I have this fixed now, I'll upload it soon, it's still hacky although,
it is done by killing one of the processes in the script ;)Plus, Pd is still labeled "Wish" once its running.
and this is not fixed
Its not hard to fix IIRC, I think you just change then name of the app
in the Info.plist that is in the Wish Shell.app.
It also suffers from MacOS X not wanting to show the /doc/ directory.
oop, this should be fixed in the version on the server
How did you fix this?
The AppMain.tcl script is the way things need to be done in order to
have Pd behave like a MacOS X application.you're right, but I couldn't figure how to doit the wavesurfer way
without modifying the pd source.
I think there is a quick hack which might work, which is launching a
.term file from AppMain.tcl to open a terminal in Terminal.app. The
console can either stay in the Terminal.app window, or it could just
launch Pd with a built-in console.
The paltypus way has its advantages:
- you can switch your pd version without recompiling (s long as it
works with your tcl/tk)
- you can do stuff in the startup script. The new version has a quite
cool feature: it scans directories recursively, so that you can
install externals, abstractons, libraries and help files via drag and
drop :)
I think in the short term, the Platypus way is fine. But I think for
the long run, we should figure out AppMain.tcl and get in as part of Pd.
...I plan on making a standalone app the "platypus" way, kinda like
a "tigital distro", with gem and stuff I use...How about working with me to include Gem/etc in the standard distro?
Having one working distro would be much better than three
half-working distros.one thing that could be nice is doing a "visual" pd distro with gem,
pdp and gridflow all together : O
It would be nice to have all of the code out there that people have
written for Pd in a distro (as long as its manageable, of course).
.hc
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an
idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps
it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the
possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of
it."
- Thomas Jefferson
Plus, Pd is still labeled "Wish" once its running.
and this is not fixed
Its not hard to fix IIRC, I think you just change then name of the app in the Info.plist that is in the Wish Shell.app.
well curiously I just hacked it the dirty way again XD, using a symlink. but I'll try this way better.
It also suffers from MacOS X not wanting to show the /doc/ directory.
oop, this should be fixed in the version on the server
How did you fix this?
with a symlink also, pd looks for ../doc
I think there is a quick hack which might work, which is launching a .term file from AppMain.tcl to open a terminal in Terminal.app. The console can either stay in the Terminal.app window, or it could just launch Pd with a built-in console.
but pd tries to launch the Wish shell no?
I think in the short term, the Platypus way is fine. But I think for the long run, we should figure out AppMain.tcl and get in as part of Pd.
isn't pd.tk a bit like our AppMain.tcl ? I supose it should be the opposite of what it is now: tcl launching pd and not pd launching tcl
... gerard
On Thursday, Apr 8, 2004, at 14:32 America/New_York, 0001 wrote:
Plus, Pd is still labeled "Wish" once its running.
and this is not fixed
Its not hard to fix IIRC, I think you just change then name of the
app in the Info.plist that is in the Wish Shell.app.well curiously I just hacked it the dirty way again XD, using a
symlink. but I'll try this way better.It also suffers from MacOS X not wanting to show the /doc/
directory.oop, this should be fixed in the version on the server
How did you fix this?
with a symlink also, pd looks for ../doc
Hmm, I don't entirely get it based on this description, but I'll take a
look at the next uPDated.app when you release it.
I think there is a quick hack which might work, which is launching a
.term file from AppMain.tcl to open a terminal in Terminal.app. The
console can either stay in the Terminal.app window, or it could just
launch Pd with a built-in console.but pd tries to launch the Wish shell no?
I could be wrong, but I think that there was a way to specify which
Wish Shell.app pd opens. But its been a while since I looked at it.
I think in the short term, the Platypus way is fine. But I think for
the long run, we should figure out AppMain.tcl and get in as part of
Pd.isn't pd.tk a bit like our AppMain.tcl ? I supose it should be the opposite of what it is now: tcl launching
pd and not pd launching tcl
Right, that sounds familiar.
.hc ________________________________________________________________________ ____
There is no way to peace, peace is the way.
-A.J. Muste
Hmm, I don't entirely get it based on this description, but I'll take a look at the next uPDated.app when you release it.
well in short it is not a problem in OSX, it was just my fault (starting the impd executable in a diferent directory than the pd standard directory tree) but it should work in the current version, the blue one. if it doesn't I have a problem :)
but pd tries to launch the Wish shell no?
I could be wrong, but I think that there was a way to specify which Wish Shell.app pd opens. But its been a while since I looked at it.
when I looked at it all I saw was that you could set your $HOME directory, and it looks there first. But maybe I was too quick. but the problem is that the shell would be started already when running AppMain.tcl no? so what we'd need is to tell pd not to start Wish.app
... gerard
On Thursday, Apr 8, 2004, at 15:19 America/New_York, 0001 wrote:
Hmm, I don't entirely get it based on this description, but I'll take
a look at the next uPDated.app when you release it.well in short it is not a problem in OSX, it was just my fault
(starting the impd executable in a diferent directory than the pd
standard directory tree) but it should work in the current version, the blue one. if it doesn't
I have a problem :)but pd tries to launch the Wish shell no?
I could be wrong, but I think that there was a way to specify which
Wish Shell.app pd opens. But its been a while since I looked at it.when I looked at it all I saw was that you could set your $HOME
directory, and it looks there first. But maybe I was too quick. but the problem is that the shell would be started already when
running AppMain.tcl no? so what we'd need is to tell pd not to start
Wish.app
Yes, this is probably the correct way to do it, but I think it might be
possible, but a nasty hack, to have AppMain.tcl launch pd.term, then
Tcl/Wish would exit, then pd.term would launch pd, which would in turn
launch the same Wish Shell.app that started the whole process. Not
clean, but it could work. It could also possibly be done with a shell
script or even an AppleScript instead of the pd.term file.
I think this would still prevent Pd from getting along with the Dock
fully. But it could be a stepping stone to a proper AppMain.tcl setup,
which would behave like a normal MacOS X .app in terms of the Dock as
well as so many other things.
.hc
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are
deliberately throwing it away
to benefit those who profit from scarcity."
-John Gilmore
Yes, this is probably the correct way to do it, but I think it might be possible, but a nasty hack, to have AppMain.tcl launch pd.term, then Tcl/Wish would exit, then pd.term would launch pd, which would in turn launch the same Wish Shell.app that started the whole process.
Not clean, but it could work. It could also possibly be done with a shell script or even an AppleScript instead of the pd.term file.
what's this, a contest ? I thought the point was to make it clean :D
On Thu, 8 Apr 2004, Thomas Grill wrote:
A Mac user suggested that it would be more "mac like" to put the whole Pd distribution into one single Application directory instead of using the unix file system standard.
Hi Guenter, there's already the uPDated package which conforms to the OSX way of things.
Ah, well, good to know (I am not going to ask why we need three packages for OSX).
Guenter
best, Thomas
(I am not going to ask why we need three packages for OSX).
maybe because it's not easy to make it behave mac-like without modifying the source and making it work diferent than in win32 or linux but if you think it, currently miller distributes binaries for all platforms, hans does his installers and there are linux packages for several distros ... variety is not that bad at this level, i's worse to mantain different branches of the source. I think if / when the impd branch gets into the main devel it may be a good moment to think about it.
...
gerard
On Apr 8, 2004, at 4:39 AM, guenter geiger wrote:
A Mac user suggested that it would be more "mac like" to put the whole Pd distribution into one single Application directory instead of using the unix file system standard.
I think technically it is feasable, what do you think about producing the Mac packages that way ?
hey guenter,
...yeh, not only desirably and technically feasable, but already done several times over ;-) I came up with "pd++.app" ( http://homepage.mac.com/tigital ) because pd needed to be correctly registered with the window manager in order to get window events working when using Gem (think dragging the gemwin around, grabbing the mouse/keyboard)...it also has a popup text entry to allow entry of flags at startup (but this seems to bork the .pdrc functionality)...anyway, it was just a sketch to get the gem stuff correct...
...more promising is stuff like uPDated, which is a wrapped up version of impd ( http://pure-data.iem.at/Members/gerard/uPDated ) using a script building application called Platypus...this is really the way to go, I think, because it now allows tcl/tk/wish shell to be bundle inside also, so you really have a "place anywhere" double clickable application...well, ya still need to have the documentation/example patches somewhere...
...I plan on making a standalone app the "platypus" way, kinda like a "tigital distro", with gem and stuff I use...
l8r, jamie
On Thursday, Apr 8, 2004, at 09:28 America/New_York, James Tittle II
wrote:
On Apr 8, 2004, at 4:39 AM, guenter geiger wrote:
A Mac user suggested that it would be more "mac like" to put the whole Pd distribution into one single Application directory instead of using the unix file system standard.
I think technically it is feasable, what do you think about producing the Mac packages that way ?
hey guenter,
...yeh, not only desirably and technically feasable, but already done
several times over ;-) I came up with "pd++.app" (
http://homepage.mac.com/tigital ) because pd needed to be correctly
registered with the window manager in order to get window events
working when using Gem (think dragging the gemwin around, grabbing the
mouse/keyboard)...it also has a popup text entry to allow entry of
flags at startup (but this seems to bork the .pdrc
functionality)...anyway, it was just a sketch to get the gem stuff
correct......more promising is stuff like uPDated, which is a wrapped up version
of impd ( http://pure-data.iem.at/Members/gerard/uPDated ) using a
script building application called Platypus...this is really the way
to go, I think, because it now allows tcl/tk/wish shell to be bundle
inside also, so you really have a "place anywhere" double clickable
application...well, ya still need to have the documentation/example
patches somewhere......I plan on making a standalone app the "platypus" way, kinda like a
"tigital distro", with gem and stuff I use...
Actually, I think that using the AppMain.tcl would be a much better way
to go. You won't have the two icon problem, you can also include Wish
Shell.app and Tcl/Tk inside, it seems to be the 'official' Tcl/Tk way
to make a MacOS X double-clickable app according to Jim Ingham, you can
do standard MacOS X file type assignments, and it requires no new
software only what we are already using. You can apparently also use
ProjectBuilder to make Tcl apps in this way. Wish Shell.app is an
example.
A number of other applications are using the AppMain.tcl already,
(Wavesurfer, TkCVS) so there are a number examples to work from.
.hc
There is no way to peace, peace is the way.
-A.J. Muste
On Thursday, Apr 8, 2004, at 09:28 America/New_York, James Tittle II
wrote:
On Apr 8, 2004, at 4:39 AM, guenter geiger wrote:
A Mac user suggested that it would be more "mac like" to put the whole Pd distribution into one single Application directory instead of using the unix file system standard.
I think technically it is feasable, what do you think about producing the Mac packages that way ?
hey guenter,
...yeh, not only desirably and technically feasable, but already done
several times over ;-) I came up with "pd++.app" (
http://homepage.mac.com/tigital ) because pd needed to be correctly
registered with the window manager in order to get window events
working when using Gem (think dragging the gemwin around, grabbing the
mouse/keyboard)...it also has a popup text entry to allow entry of
flags at startup (but this seems to bork the .pdrc
functionality)...anyway, it was just a sketch to get the gem stuff
correct......more promising is stuff like uPDated, which is a wrapped up version
of impd ( http://pure-data.iem.at/Members/gerard/uPDated ) using a
script building application called Platypus...this is really the way
to go, I think, because it now allows tcl/tk/wish shell to be bundle
inside also, so you really have a "place anywhere" double clickable
application...well, ya still need to have the documentation/example
patches somewhere......I plan on making a standalone app the "platypus" way, kinda like a
"tigital distro", with gem and stuff I use...
How about working with me to include Gem/etc in the standard distro?
Having one working distro would be much better than three half-working
distros. On a basic level, Gem just needs to be able to be compiled on
via a Makefile issuing commands. Then the whole thing can be built by
typing "make darwin_app". I've got almost everything in the Pd CVS
working in this way, it would be great to have Gem added to this.
.hc
"Information wants to be free." -Stewart Brand
On Apr 8, 2004, at 10:41 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
How about working with me to include Gem/etc in the standard distro?
Having one working distro would be much better than three half-working distros. On a basic level, Gem just needs to be able to be compiled on via a Makefile issuing commands. Then the whole thing can be built by typing "make darwin_app". I've got almost everything in the Pd CVS working in this way, it would be great to have Gem added to this.
...sounds good to me, because we'll need several versions anyway: G3, G4, G5 versions of pd, impd with all the goodies...of course, it may be possible to make loadable .dylibs of the different targets, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms...
...I believe chris already uses a makefile only build system...perhaps with the impending Gem release, we can import it to the pd externals repository?
l8r, jamie
On Thursday, Apr 8, 2004, at 12:47 America/New_York, James Tittle II wrote:
On Apr 8, 2004, at 10:41 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
How about working with me to include Gem/etc in the standard distro?
Having one working distro would be much better than three half-working distros. On a basic level, Gem just needs to be able to be compiled on via a Makefile issuing commands. Then the whole thing can be built by typing "make darwin_app". I've got almost everything in the Pd CVS working in this way, it would be great to have Gem added to this....sounds good to me, because we'll need several versions anyway: G3, G4, G5 versions of pd, impd with all the goodies...of course, it may be possible to make loadable .dylibs of the different targets, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms...
...I believe chris already uses a makefile only build system...
I doesn't have to be a Makefile, there just has to be a way of compiling only from the command line, then that can be added to the packages/darwin_app Makefile.
perhaps with the impending Gem release, we can import it to the pd externals repository?
Where is the GEM CVS currently? gem.iem.at? I think it would only be worth moving back to the pure-data.sf.net CVS if y'all were going to use that to develop from. But it might make sense to import 'releases' to Pd CVS, then keep the development separate. We could then import the GEM code using the external vendor method, and fix bugs in the 'release' in Pd CVS using branching and merging to stay up to date with newer releases.
.hc
http://at.or.at/hans/
I came up with "pd++.app" ( http://homepage.mac.com/tigital ) because pd needed to be correctly registered with the window manager in order to get window events working when using Gem (think dragging the gemwin around, grabbing the mouse/keyboard)...
geez, didn't know that. it'd be nice to have gem without the spinning beach ball
...I plan on making a standalone app the "platypus" way, kinda like a "tigital distro", with gem and stuff I use...
How about working with me to include Gem/etc in the standard distro?
Having one working distro would be much better than three half-working distros.
one thing that could be nice is doing a "visual" pd distro with gem, pdp and gridflow all together : O
Work is already underway to do that, but there are problems. There are
two things left that need to be done in order to make this work.
- MacOS X tries to be too smart and treats .app directories in a
special way, so you can't browse them. This means that if the pd/doc/
directory is in the .app directory, then when you try to read the docs
in Pd, it just shows you the Application. A workaround to this needs
to be found
- An "AppMail.tcl" script needs to be written in order to make Pd.app
function like a double-clickable app. Here's a howto:
http://www.ling.lu.se/persons/Johan/tcl/
I won't have time to work on these until July. But if someone figures
out these two issues, then it will be easy to do the rest.
.hc
On Thursday, Apr 8, 2004, at 04:39 America/New_York, guenter geiger
wrote:
Hi,
A Mac user suggested that it would be more "mac like" to put the whole Pd distribution into one single Application directory instead of using the unix file system standard.
I think technically it is feasable, what do you think about producing the Mac packages that way ?
Guenter
On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Let's keep this on the list, it could be helpful to others.
On Wednesday, Apr 7, 2004, at 19:39 America/New_York, chun lee wrote:
Hi there:
Thanks for your reply:)
What happened to #2? ;) Anyway, this depends on where and how you installed Pd. If you used the installer, then the externals are installed into /usr/local/lib/pd/extra.
Ya, #2 was deleted cause it sounded a bit silly..... Anyway, I
figured out the externals are all at '/usr/local/lib/pd/extra' but the folder is hidden in the Finder. Is there a way that I can gain access to these folders via the Finder? Or could I use the Terminal to copy the /extra folder to somewhere that I have access to and then change the file path in Pd?
I will give it a try...There are two ways that I know to open hidden folders with the GUI. First in the Open panel, you can just type it and hit enter. Or from the Terminal.app, you can do: "open /usr/local/lib/pd/extra"
.hc
pdb is a great resource, but unfortunately, since it has to be manually updated, it doesn't get updated much. So it shouldn't be taken as definitive. The easiest way to find out what objects are installed
on your computer is to look in the above mentioned externals directory..hc
Ok, now I know.
Many thanks
Yours
CHUN
__ ____
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into
the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it."- ThomasJefferson
"Information wants to be free." -Stewart Brand
-
0001 -
guenter geiger -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
James Tittle II -
Thomas Grill