This is a long shot but does anybody have familiarity with the Processing application?
cheers, andy
padawan12 wrote:
This is a long shot but does anybody have familiarity with the Processing application?
I've made some stuff with it in the past. I also used it to teach java some years ago.
It's an interesting project with a large user base. But it's not a programming language as it is stated on the website. Underneath, there's a java library used to simplify some aspect of programming a graphical, interactive applet that gets bundled with your code. In fact, when you compile your program, you end up with a plain java applet that you can put on a web page.
c.
cheers, andy
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On Oct 5, 2006, at 5:50 AM, Cesare Marilungo wrote:
padawan12 wrote:
This is a long shot but does anybody have familiarity with the Processing application?
I've made some stuff with it in the past. I also used it to teach
java some years ago.It's an interesting project with a large user base. But it's not a
programming language as it is stated on the website. Underneath,
there's a java library used to simplify some aspect of programming
a graphical, interactive applet that gets bundled with your code.
In fact, when you compile your program, you end up with a plain
java applet that you can put on a web page.
Its like a java sandbox. It makes java easier, but I have to say
that the error messages are work than regular Java since there is a
layer of obfuscation.
Also, I think they should have used a Number object instead of ints
and floats, since its meant for people to learn programming.
Explaining what a float is to someone who barely does math is a pain
in the ass.
.hc
c.
cheers, andy
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On Thu, 12 Oct 2006, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Also, I think they should have used a Number object instead of ints and floats, since its meant for people to learn programming. Explaining what a float is to someone who barely does math is a pain in the ass.
Eventually, even if you force people to use only floats, you still have to explain how they work. It's just that at the level of teaching that you do, you are able to sweep the topic under the carpet, and the carpet is thick enough that you can pretend that there's no lump in it, until some student stumbles upon it and breaks his/her jaw, but by that time you're usually gone.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
I agree that you will have to explain the difference to them at some point if they really try and do any serious project with Processing, and furthermore: if you want to learn basic programming, there's some minimum level of math that you need, or you just aren't going to succeed. Learning the difference between an integer and a float is precisely the kind of thing an introductory program SHOULD teach. I believe it is introduced on the first day of most any programming class, like "intro to java" or "intro to C++".
I guess the problem is more, that many artists hate math and never thought they would need it. And in the US, that's in many cases the fault of a horrible public school system. Even I, though I have reasonable mathematical skills, stopped doing math way too early (at beginning calculus) - because back then (12 years ago) I never knew I'd be doing digital audio that required more advanced math stuff. No math teacher ever mentioned that there might be direct musical applications for math, and besides, I was a jazz piano player back then.
It would be interesting to use PD to teach some math stuff actually - I'd like to see some kind of basic fft tutorial so I can explain Mathieu's posts on doing fft in PD, for instance! ;-)
~David
On 10/13/06, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Also, I think they should have used a Number object instead of ints and floats, since its meant for people to learn programming. Explaining what a float is to someone who barely does math is a pain in the ass.
Eventually, even if you force people to use only floats, you still have to explain how they work. It's just that at the level of teaching that you do, you are able to sweep the topic under the carpet, and the carpet is thick enough that you can pretend that there's no lump in it, until some student stumbles upon it and breaks his/her jaw, but by that time you're usually gone.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
I find this all fascinating to think about...
I to was schooled in the US and with US methods. It was a private education (Jesuit) but subjects seldom crossed disciplinary borders.
I was always interested in computers and art but never really saw (or was educated in) how connections could be made between the two..
Art was painting and drawing...
Math art was cheesy fractals...
Math itself was boring as hell...
I've been struggling these past few years trying to catch up on my education by educating myself in math so that i CAN do interactive arts. It is a major struggle and I feel no natural ability in it - only sore eyes..
I have been using pd for several years (mostly using other peoples patches to manipulate audio - gran synth etc) but have lately been creating my own patch/programs (just got pd compiled and running on linux!!)..
I am wondering about resources for artists that are for 'post-mfa' artists who what to educate themselves in the multimedia arts - artists who (unfortunately) were taught the traditions of art (painting, drawing sculpture) but yearn for something more contemporary...
What the hell is a 'float' anyway? Can the definition be summed up in a concise paragraph in laymen terminology rather that computer/math academically wrapped lingo?
BTW Are there math classes using pd to teach math and bridge math and the arts in high-schools? it would be an interesting research study for an educational researcher no?
Sorry for the ramble I am just very interested in the discussion...
cheers mark
--- David Powers cyborgk@gmail.com wrote:
I agree that you will have to explain the difference to them at some point if they really try and do any serious project with Processing, and furthermore: if you want to learn basic programming, there's some minimum level of math that you need, or you just aren't going to succeed. Learning the difference between an integer and a float is precisely the kind of thing an introductory program SHOULD teach. I believe it is introduced on the first day of most any programming class, like "intro to java" or "intro to C++".
I guess the problem is more, that many artists hate math and never thought they would need it. And in the US, that's in many cases the fault of a horrible public school system. Even I, though I have reasonable mathematical skills, stopped doing math way too early (at beginning calculus) - because back then (12 years ago) I never knew I'd be doing digital audio that required more advanced math stuff. No math teacher ever mentioned that there might be direct musical applications for math, and besides, I was a jazz piano player back then.
It would be interesting to use PD to teach some math stuff actually - I'd like to see some kind of basic fft tutorial so I can explain Mathieu's posts on doing fft in PD, for instance! ;-)
~David
On 10/13/06, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Also, I think they should have used a Number
object instead of ints and
floats, since its meant for people to learn
programming. Explaining
what a float is to someone who barely does math
is a pain in the ass.
Eventually, even if you force people to use only
floats, you still have to
explain how they work. It's just that at the level
of teaching that you
do, you are able to sweep the topic under the
carpet, and the carpet is
thick enough that you can pretend that there's no
lump in it, until some
student stumbles upon it and breaks his/her jaw,
but by that time you're
usually gone.
_____________________ ...
| Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 -
| Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC
Canada
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
mark edward grimm | m.f.a | ed.m
megrimm.net | socialmediagroup.org & .com
meg156@columbia.edu | 585.509.8703
______________________________
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, mark edward grimm wrote:
What the hell is a 'float' anyway? Can the definition be summed up in a concise paragraph in laymen terminology
It's an integer multiplied by a power of two. That's about as layman as it can reasonably get. In Pd the integer is between 2^23 and 2^24 and the power of two is between 2^-149 and 2^106.
rather that computer/math academically wrapped lingo?
depends on how intolerant you are...
BTW Are there math classes using pd to teach math and bridge math and the arts in high-schools?
It's already rather difficult to get universities to do anything about pd, so anything about high-schools is currently out of the question...
it would be an interesting research study for an educational researcher no?
not ever since BASIC/LOGO was replaced by Microsoft Works...
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Hallo, Mathieu Bouchard hat gesagt: // Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, mark edward grimm wrote:
What the hell is a 'float' anyway? Can the definition be summed up in a concise paragraph in laymen terminology
It's an integer multiplied by a power of two.
I'd add: "... and which is displayed to the user as a decimal number."
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Mathieu Bouchard hat gesagt: // Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, mark edward grimm wrote:
What the hell is a 'float' anyway? Can the definition be summed up in a concise paragraph in laymen terminology
It's an integer multiplied by a power of two.
I'd add: "... and which is displayed to the user as a decimal number."
Well no, that's really not a requirement at all. But you could insert the word "often".
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, mark edward grimm wrote:
What the hell is a 'float' anyway? Can the definition be summed up in a concise paragraph in laymen terminology
It's an integer multiplied by a power of two. That's about as layman as it can reasonably get. In Pd the integer is between 2^23 and 2^24 and the power of two is between 2^-149 and 2^106.
It's not exactly an integer since it's supposed to be a fixed point number between 1 and just less than 2, multiplied by a power of two. The term 'float' is short for 'floating point', which means the number can have the decimal point anywhere in the number, not just at one position. In the float the binary point starts out at the left and the power effectively moves it. The thing about the laity is that they are free to learn on their own and can thereby acquire even more knowledge than those who have gone through the system which only tells them what it wants them to know.
For example this is the representation of the number 1.5 X 2^20 =
1572864 (aka UNITBIT32) in
IEEE Standard 754 Double Precision Storage Format (double):
63 62 52 51 32
31 0
+--------+----------------+-------------------+------------------------------+
| s 1bit | e[62:52] 11bit | f[51:32] 20bit | f[31:0]
32bit |
+--------+----------------+-------------------+------------------------------+
B0-------------->B1---------->B2----->B3----->B4----->B5----->B6----->B7----->
0 10000010011
1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Martin
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, Martin Peach wrote:
It's an integer multiplied by a power of two. That's about as layman as it can reasonably get. In Pd the integer is between 2^23 and 2^24 and the power of two is between 2^-149 and 2^106.
It's not exactly an integer since it's supposed to be a fixed point number between 1 and just less than 2, multiplied by a power of two.
did you realize that your definition and my definition are equivalent ?
why do you think that i say that the multiplicator is between 2^-149 and 2^106, instead of 2^-127 to 2^129 ? (note: that is an off-by-one error, so I really meant 2^-150 to 2^105)
In the float the binary point starts out at the left and the power effectively moves it.
It can "start" anywhere you want, provided that the relation between "characteristic" and "exponent" is appropriately chosen...
The thing about the laity is that they are free to learn on their own and can thereby acquire even more knowledge than those who have gone through the system which only tells them what it wants them to know.
Exactly. This allows me to teach floats in an alternative way that doesn't involve putting the binary point to the left.
For example this is the representation of the number 1.5 X 2^20 = 1572864 (aka UNITBIT32) in IEEE Standard 754 Double Precision Storage Format (double):
I was only talking about single precision floats, because that's the only thing that PureData supports today.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, Martin Peach wrote:
It's an integer multiplied by a power of two. That's about as layman as it can reasonably get. In Pd the integer is between 2^23 and 2^24 and the power of two is between 2^-149 and 2^106.
It's not exactly an integer since it's supposed to be a fixed point number between 1 and just less than 2, multiplied by a power of two.
did you realize that your definition and my definition are equivalent ?
Yes. What I meant was that the number is not an integer in the mathematical sense. A float in memory is three integers packed together into 32 bits, and of those integers is missing its most significant bit.
why do you think that i say that the multiplicator is between 2^-149 and 2^106, instead of 2^-127 to 2^129 ? (note: that is an off-by-one error, so I really meant 2^-150 to 2^105)
In the float the binary point starts out at the left and the power effectively moves it.
It can "start" anywhere you want, provided that the relation between "characteristic" and "exponent" is appropriately chosen...
But once you have chosen the relation you can't move the binary point. It's a fixed point number. If the point has to move the number is called denormal. Normalizing usually means fitting something into a range of 0-1, so it makes sense that a normalized float is using a number close to 1 rather than 2^23, but otherwise it makes no difference.
The thing about the laity is that they are free to learn on their own and can thereby acquire even more knowledge than those who have gone through the system which only tells them what it wants them to know.
Exactly. This allows me to teach floats in an alternative way that doesn't involve putting the binary point to the left.
For example this is the representation of the number 1.5 X 2^20 = 1572864 (aka UNITBIT32) in IEEE Standard 754 Double Precision Storage Format (double):
I was only talking about single precision floats, because that's the only thing that PureData supports today.
Internally pd uses doubles, for example in osc~.c. A double works just like a float but uses twice as much space so it can represent more numbers.
Martin
Martin Peach wrote:
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
I was only talking about single precision floats, because that's the only thing that PureData supports today.
Internally pd uses doubles, for example in osc~.c. A double works just
??
pd's type for a numeric value is "t_float" (which is usually a 32bit "float") pd's type for sample values is "t_sample" (which is usually a 32bit "float")
see m_pd.h for more information.
mf.adr IOhannes
PS: if some object or another "internally" (this is: within the object's personal world) uses "double" (or "struct arrayscheiss") is not to be confused with what pd (as interpreter) uses "internally" (this is: for communication between several objects.)
PPS: if only objects (externals/internals) would use "t_float" and esp. "t_sample" throughout...
IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
Martin Peach wrote:
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
I was only talking about single precision floats, because that's the only thing that PureData supports today.
Internally pd uses doubles, for example in osc~.c. A double works just
??
It really is hard for me to write unambiguous prose. I meant to say that the c language code that most of pd is written in occasionally uses doubles as well as floats, although it does not use doubles (or even integers) in its public interface.
Martin
pd's type for a numeric value is "t_float" (which is usually a 32bit "float") pd's type for sample values is "t_sample" (which is usually a 32bit "float")
see m_pd.h for more information.
mf.adr IOhannes
PS: if some object or another "internally" (this is: within the object's personal world) uses "double" (or "struct arrayscheiss") is not to be confused with what pd (as interpreter) uses "internally" (this is: for communication between several objects.)
PPS: if only objects (externals/internals) would use "t_float" and esp. "t_sample" throughout...
I find this all fascinating to think about...
I to was schooled in the US and with US methods. It was a private education (Jesuit) but subjects seldom crossed disciplinary borders.
I was always interested in computers and art but never really saw (or was educated in) how connections could be made between the two..
Art was painting and drawing...
Math art was cheesy fractals...
Math itself was boring as hell...
I've been struggling these past few years trying to catch up on my education by educating myself in math so that i CAN do interactive arts. It is a major struggle and I feel no natural ability in it - only sore eyes..
I have been using pd for several years (mostly using other peoples patches to manipulate audio - gran synth etc) but have lately been creating my own patch/programs (just got pd compiled and running on linux!!)..
I am wondering about resources for artists that are for 'post-mfa' artists who what to educate themselves in the multimedia arts - artists who (unfortunately) were taught the traditions of art (painting, drawing sculpture) but yearn for something more contemporary...
What the hell is a 'float' anyway? Can the definition be summed up in a concise paragraph in laymen terminology rather that computer/math academically wrapped lingo?
BTW Are there math classes using pd to teach math and bridge math and the arts in high-schools? it would be an interesting research study for an educational researcher no?
Sorry for the ramble I am just very interested in the discussion...
cheers mark
--- David Powers cyborgk@gmail.com wrote:
I agree that you will have to explain the difference to them at some point if they really try and do any serious project with Processing, and furthermore: if you want to learn basic programming, there's some minimum level of math that you need, or you just aren't going to succeed. Learning the difference between an integer and a float is precisely the kind of thing an introductory program SHOULD teach. I believe it is introduced on the first day of most any programming class, like "intro to java" or "intro to C++".
I guess the problem is more, that many artists hate math and never thought they would need it. And in the US, that's in many cases the fault of a horrible public school system. Even I, though I have reasonable mathematical skills, stopped doing math way too early (at beginning calculus) - because back then (12 years ago) I never knew I'd be doing digital audio that required more advanced math stuff. No math teacher ever mentioned that there might be direct musical applications for math, and besides, I was a jazz piano player back then.
It would be interesting to use PD to teach some math stuff actually - I'd like to see some kind of basic fft tutorial so I can explain Mathieu's posts on doing fft in PD, for instance! ;-)
~David
On 10/13/06, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Also, I think they should have used a Number
object instead of ints and
floats, since its meant for people to learn
programming. Explaining
what a float is to someone who barely does math
is a pain in the ass.
Eventually, even if you force people to use only
floats, you still have to
explain how they work. It's just that at the level
of teaching that you
do, you are able to sweep the topic under the
carpet, and the carpet is
thick enough that you can pretend that there's no
lump in it, until some
student stumbles upon it and breaks his/her jaw,
but by that time you're
usually gone.
_____________________ ...
| Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 -
| Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC
Canada
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
mark edward grimm | m.f.a | ed.m
megrimm.net | socialmediagroup.org & .com
meg156@columbia.edu | 585.509.8703
______________________________
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, David Powers wrote:
I guess the problem is more, that many artists hate math and never thought they would need it.
Actually they've been only exposed to math as a kind of drudgery and hoops to jump through to get good marks. After the fun is thus killed, this bad impression is socially reinforced, confirmed, encouraged, and even cool. It's cool to not know any math. There are many people proud to not know any math.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada