well there is quite many pd-related sites already, i thought
why pdpedia is needed ?
As a primo-supporter of the idea in France, let me try to explain. There are main reasons:
1/ there is no dictionnary or lexicon about the 3000 objects/externals/abstraction usable in PD. Most of the ressources about those components are spread over a hundred sites, and help patches are not made to explain all about one component.
2/ the actual documentation is static. Once made, (most of the time) by the developper and published somewhere on the web, there are few possibilities for the community to correct, complete, translate or improve the quality of this documentation.
3/ the actual documentation is mainly in English ==> impossible to persuade some schools to use open source software in many countries without localised documentation ( I have seen this case many times in France).
4/ most of the coders are not good documenters. Sometimes they don't document ( exept the help patch), because they don't like this work, or because they don't know how to do it clean. The pedagogic aspect of a documentation is important for newbies. As in Wikipedia, everyone should have the possibility to improve one of the 3000 components in a few clicks, and publish it instantaneously to all the community.
5/ there is no tool to know which object/external/abstraction is available for the use people need for their patch. Learning the 3000 components needs a life or autistic capacities. Pdpedia will have both a category portal and a search engine.
The pdpedia project is to build a living/open/collective/multilingual encyclopedy about each of the actual 3000 possible components in a PD patch. Each page of PDpedia can welcome many rubriques as those we have published here for test last year http://pdpedia.dreamhosters.com/index.php?title=Menu (not completed, and for test only)
Many advantages output from a wikipedia-like process:
-The users can be contributors of the documentation. -The users can be translators of the documentation. -The pdpedia file can be (automatically) embbeded in each new pd release or nightly build giving the possibility to have a complete doc offline. -The pdpedia database can be easily edited in paper or booklets with wikimedia tools. -The pdpedia database server engine could in the future "understand" text patches and translate them into images. -Reversely, a click on a patch image in your browser could open the patch in PD ?
and many other possibilities. But for my opinion, the main advantage is that the users collaborate to make the best clear and useful documentation, like in wikipedia.
JN
PS. just in case, the pdpedia.org DNS has been bought for one year by our non-profit org last october, and we offer it to PD community if needed. Otherwise, the name will be automatically deleted in one month.
On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 10:54:13AM +0200, JNM wrote:
well there is quite many pd-related sites already, i thought
why pdpedia is needed ?
As a primo-supporter of the idea in France, let me try to explain. There are main reasons:
1/ there is no dictionnary or lexicon about the 3000 objects/externals/abstraction usable in PD. Most of the ressources about those components are spread over a hundred sites, and help patches are not made to explain all about one component.
2/ the actual documentation is static. Once made, (most of the time) by the developper and published somewhere on the web, there are few possibilities for the community to correct, complete, translate or improve the quality of this documentation.
3/ the actual documentation is mainly in English ==> impossible to persuade some schools to use open source software in many countries without localised documentation ( I have seen this case many times in France).
yeah.. i didn't find ANY even just info article in russian ..so i'll try hard to get something done.... but might take my a while
4/ most of the coders are not good documenters. Sometimes they don't document ( exept the help patch), because they don't like this work, or because they don't know how to do it clean. The pedagogic aspect of a documentation is important for newbies. As in Wikipedia, everyone should have the possibility to improve one of the 3000 components in a few clicks, and publish it instantaneously to all the community.
5/ there is no tool to know which object/external/abstraction is available for the use people need for their patch. Learning the 3000 components needs a life or autistic capacities. Pdpedia will have both a category portal and a search engine.
may it can have some search for the puredata.info/Members/* as well, like an extra section, some stuff there might be helpful, but not for such a general use ..
The pdpedia project is to build a living/open/collective/multilingual encyclopedy about each of the actual 3000 possible components in a PD patch. Each page of PDpedia can welcome many rubriques as those we have published here for test last year http://pdpedia.dreamhosters.com/index.php?title=Menu (not completed, and for test only)
Many advantages output from a wikipedia-like process:
-The users can be contributors of the documentation. -The users can be translators of the documentation. -The pdpedia file can be (automatically) embbeded in each new pd release or nightly build giving the possibility to have a complete doc offline. -The pdpedia database can be easily edited in paper or booklets with wikimedia tools. -The pdpedia database server engine could in the future "understand" text patches and translate them into images. -Reversely, a click on a patch image in your browser could open the patch in PD ?
yeah, the idea of an offline doc collection is great. it could be cool to conver them in manpage-like format, and a have little broser embedded in pd ...
and many other possibilities. But for my opinion, the main advantage is that the users collaborate to make the best clear and useful documentation, like in wikipedia.
i might do some docs in russian, once i get few things sorted around it ..
JN
PS. just in case, the pdpedia.org DNS has been bought for one year by our non-profit org last october, and we offer it to PD community if needed. Otherwise, the name will be automatically deleted in one month.
--
Jean-Noël Montagné http://www.artsens.org http://www.craslab.org http://www.fluxtation.org
With that site: http://puredata.lynksee.com/wiki/Documentaci%C3%B3n_sobre_Pure_Data we began with same idea but focused in spanish language. If pdpedia go ahead we can add our documentation to new wiki.
Is a great idea.
5/ there is no tool to know which object/external/abstraction is available for the use people need for their patch. Learning the 3000 components needs a life or autistic capacities. Pdpedia will have both a category portal and a search engine.
Yes!. I did know a person expert in all feautures of pd. I think there are many way for to research in pd environment, so a good documentation really help to choose the right way.
On 06/09/2007, at 10.54, JNM wrote:
ild0012 wrote:
why pdpedia is needed ?
As a primo-supporter of the idea in France, let me try to explain. There are main reasons: (snip)
There a a lot of good ideas there - agreed. Just got a^Htwo questions.
Why can't those issues be solved by using *-help.pd files (or
allabout-*.pd files if needed be) as how the PDDP tried to do it? -
As i see it, the only (but very likely very important) new this is
the multilingual issue, which i don't see why couldn't be solved
in .pd doman.
If the real problem is, that people (that write good documentation)
can't be asked to submit edited versions of existing (or non
existing) help files to the PDDP cvs folder, then maybe a easier way
to submit would solve the problem?
- the help patches are not easily searcheable and 2) you can only
search for objects that are on your computer, but what if you search for an object that has a certain feature and is maybe in a library that you don't have yet. 3) pd patches cannot have meta information. it is more difficult to script into them and get information out of them than it is from websites. 4) history showed, that almost noone ever changed a helppatch and reposted it to the repository. at least not the majority of users, with a web based solution this will be much easier. 5) you can have links, images, videos, better structure in wikipedia than in pd. - you can not have the interaction feeling you have in pd, though. therefore the help patches will be the first reference. marius.
Steffen wrote:
On 06/09/2007, at 10.54, JNM wrote:
ild0012 wrote:
why pdpedia is needed ?
As a primo-supporter of the idea in France, let me try to explain. There are main reasons: (snip)
There a a lot of good ideas there - agreed. Just got a^Htwo questions.
Why can't those issues be solved by using *-help.pd files (or
allabout-*.pd files if needed be) as how the PDDP tried to do it? -
As i see it, the only (but very likely very important) new this is
the multilingual issue, which i don't see why couldn't be solved
in .pd doman.If the real problem is, that people (that write good documentation)
can't be asked to submit edited versions of existing (or non
existing) help files to the PDDP cvs folder, then maybe a easier way
to submit would solve the problem?
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Steffen a écrit :
On 06/09/2007, at 10.54, JNM wrote:
ild0012 wrote:
why pdpedia is needed ?
As a primo-supporter of the idea in France, let me try to explain. There are main reasons: (snip)
There a a lot of good ideas there - agreed. Just got a^Htwo questions.
Why can't those issues be solved by using *-help.pd files (or
allabout-*.pd files if needed be) as how the PDDP tried to do it? -
As i see it, the only (but very likely very important) new this is
the multilingual issue, which i don't see why couldn't be solved
in .pd doman.If the real problem is, that people (that write good documentation)
can't be asked to submit edited versions of existing (or non
existing) help files to the PDDP cvs folder, then maybe a easier way
to submit would solve the problem?
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hello, I hope I'm not so far from the subject, but what about adding "clickable" links option into the console for getting the documentation of objects, and patches, at first creation, and first occuring error?
Patrice Colet wrote:
Hello, I hope I'm not so far from the subject, but what about adding "clickable" links option into the console for getting the documentation of objects, and patches, at first creation, and first occuring error?
I think it would be to much console output, although some libraries do a printout when they are initiated. but the link idea is good and already included in the pddp helpfiles. the link will show up in the help patch. the object that creates links is called pddplink. marius.
On Sep 6, 2007, at 11:25 AM, Steffen wrote:
On 06/09/2007, at 10.54, JNM wrote:
ild0012 wrote:
why pdpedia is needed ?
As a primo-supporter of the idea in France, let me try to explain. There are main reasons: (snip)
There a a lot of good ideas there - agreed. Just got a^Htwo questions.
Why can't those issues be solved by using *-help.pd files (or allabout-*.pd files if needed be) as how the PDDP tried to do it? - As i see it, the only (but very likely very important) new this is the multilingual issue, which i don't see why couldn't be solved in .pd doman.
If the real problem is, that people (that write good documentation) can't be asked to submit edited versions of existing (or non existing) help files to the PDDP cvs folder, then maybe a easier way to submit would solve the problem?
Hopefully the pdpedia will spur the creation of better help patches.
I certainly hope the pdpedia does not replace the effort to make
better help patches, I don't think that's anyone's intention. The
core idea of the pdpedia is that it's a place where the community can
easily contribute.
Plus I think it will be very helpful to get the documentation
translated into other languages. Then we don't have to wait for
localized comment support.
.hc
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an
idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps
it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into
the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess
himself of it. - Thomas Jefferson
Well said, that's quite a list you wrote.
If you want you could direct the pdpedia.org to my server,
blinky.at.or.at. It will also be accessible using wiki.puredata.info
and wiki.puredata.org, so the pdpedia.org isn't really needed, if
you don't want to pay for it.
.hc
On Sep 6, 2007, at 4:54 AM, JNM wrote:
well there is quite many pd-related sites already, i thought
why pdpedia is needed ?
As a primo-supporter of the idea in France, let me try to explain. There are main reasons:
1/ there is no dictionnary or lexicon about the 3000 objects/externals/abstraction usable in PD. Most of the ressources about those components are spread over a hundred sites, and help patches are not made to explain all about one component.
2/ the actual documentation is static. Once made, (most of the time) by the developper and published somewhere on the web, there are few possibilities for the community to correct, complete, translate or improve the quality of this documentation.
3/ the actual documentation is mainly in English ==> impossible to persuade some schools to use open source software in many countries without localised documentation ( I have seen this case many times in France).
4/ most of the coders are not good documenters. Sometimes they don't document ( exept the help patch), because they don't like this work, or because they don't know how to do it clean. The pedagogic aspect of a documentation is important for newbies. As in Wikipedia, everyone should have the possibility to improve one of the 3000 components in a few clicks, and publish it instantaneously to all the community.
5/ there is no tool to know which object/external/abstraction is available for the use people need for their patch. Learning the 3000 components needs a life or autistic capacities. Pdpedia will have both a category portal and a search engine.
The pdpedia project is to build a living/open/collective/multilingual encyclopedy about each of the actual 3000 possible components in a PD patch. Each page of PDpedia can welcome many rubriques as those we have published here for test last year http://pdpedia.dreamhosters.com/index.php?title=Menu (not completed, and for test only)
Many advantages output from a wikipedia-like process:
-The users can be contributors of the documentation. -The users can be translators of the documentation. -The pdpedia file can be (automatically) embbeded in each new pd release or nightly build giving the possibility to have a complete doc offline. -The pdpedia database can be easily edited in paper or booklets with wikimedia tools. -The pdpedia database server engine could in the future "understand" text patches and translate them into images. -Reversely, a click on a patch image in your browser could open the patch in PD ?
and many other possibilities. But for my opinion, the main advantage is that the users collaborate to make the best clear and useful documentation, like in wikipedia.
JN
PS. just in case, the pdpedia.org DNS has been bought for one year by our non-profit org last october, and we offer it to PD community if needed. Otherwise, the name will be automatically deleted in one month.
--
Jean-Noël Montagné http://www.artsens.org http://www.craslab.org http://www.fluxtation.org
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
Access to computers should be unlimited and total. - the hacker ethic
-
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
ild0012＠londonmet.ac.uk -
JNM -
marius schebella -
Patrice Colet -
Steffen -
Vircy Parker