2017-12-07 12:04 GMT-02:00 Christof Ressi christof.ressi@gmx.at:

Now when I think of it, when I switched from Pd-extended to Pd vanilla a couple of years ago I was first annoyed by the bigger font size. So it's really just a matter of getting used to it. Just one question: on Windows (and also Linux?) the font weight defaults to bold (as opposed to Pd extended). Is this on purpose and is this the same on MacOS?

It is not the same at all on macOS! And this has also been a matter of dicussion here on the list. That is if we should get them all consistently the same. But before we deal with that, it was necessary to do this part of the process anyway. So after this we can make a decision on that.

I'm arguing we should have them all with normal weight instead of bold by default. Because it'd be consistent also with Pd Extended and Purr Data. I find bold specially hard on the eyes when checking documentation and help files. I remember there were different points of view, as always, but not that much or strong rejection to making it normal weight. But anyway, this should be a new discussion with as much people involved as possible for the next release.

cheers

wouldn't t is not on purpose, I'd say this happened

Anyway, thanks for the great work!!!

...

If everyone ends up hating this, we could just go back to Courier on all

platforms. At least then we wouldn't have to ship a font....

or what about Comic Sans MS? :-p

*Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 07. Dezember 2017 um 14:40 Uhr *Von:* "Dan Wilcox" danomatika@gmail.com *An:* "Lucas Cordiviola" lucarda27@hotmail.com, "Christof Ressi" < christof.ressi@gmx.at> *Cc:* Pd-List pd-list@lists.iem.at *Betreff:* Re: [PD] Fw: Re: [PD-announce] Pd 0.48-1 test version released Yes, the sizes are a little smaller/tighter and come from Pd-extended. Things work best with DejaVu Sans Mono so rendering should be the same using the same font. For more info, see: https://github.com/pure- data/pure-data/pull/159

If everyone ends up hating this, we could just go back to Courier on all platforms. At least then we wouldn't have to ship a font....

Note: DejaVu Sans Mono is the default font but it's not currently shipped with or loaded by Pd on Windows yet. There is some extra work needed for this and it seemed important to fix the sizing issues on macOS first. I wrote up some info about the fonts in https://github.com/pure- data/pure-data/blob/master/font/README.txt

Also, zooming now works for all guis, the inlets & outlets are the same height, lots of little drawing bugs were fixed (VU scale not completly hidden), etc etc etc.

On Dec 5, 2017, at 7:35 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote:

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:14:59 +0000 From: Lucas Cordiviola lucarda27@hotmail.com To: "pd-list@lists.iem.at" pd-list@lists.iem.at, Christof Ressi christof.ressi@gmx.at Subject: Re: [PD] Fw: Re: [PD-announce] Pd 0.48-1 test version released Message-ID: BLUPR01MB552BC5EB5950BA429B62D5FA63D0@BLUPR01MB552.prod.exchangelabs.com

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Christof,

Yes this changes were totally intentional, and are for good IMO, now patches render the same on all platforms!.

They were well tested, see: https://github.com/pure- data/pure-data/pull/227

: - )

---

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2017-12-08 10:30 GMT-02:00 Christof Ressi christof.ressi@gmx.at:

thanks. just to make sure: the font weight doesn't have any influence on the object sizes, right? in that case it would be only a matter of personal preference. maybe it could be an option in Pd?

what do you mean? Don't have any default setting and ask before hand what is the option the user wants?

And well, currently it is an option already. You can set it with a startup flag.

But my point is that I think it should have the same default option consistently accross platforms one way or another.

cheers

...

But anyway, this should be a new discussion with as much people involved

as possible for the next release.

agreed.

*Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 07. Dezember 2017 um 17:57 Uhr *Von:* "Alexandre Torres Porres" porres@gmail.com *An:* "Christof Ressi" christof.ressi@gmx.at *Cc:* "Dan Wilcox" danomatika@gmail.com, pd-list pd-list@iem.at

*Betreff:* Re: [PD] Fw: Re: [PD-announce] Pd 0.48-1 test version released

2017-12-07 12:04 GMT-02:00 Christof Ressi christof.ressi@gmx.at:

...

Now when I think of it, when I switched from Pd-extended to Pd vanilla a couple of years ago I was first annoyed by the bigger font size. So it's really just a matter of getting used to it. Just one question: on Windows (and also Linux?) the font weight defaults to bold (as opposed to Pd extended). Is this on purpose and is this the same on MacOS?

It is not the same at all on macOS! And this has also been a matter of dicussion here on the list. That is if we should get them all consistently the same. But before we deal with that, it was necessary to do this part of the process anyway. So after this we can make a decision on that.

I'm arguing we should have them all with normal weight instead of bold by default. Because it'd be consistent also with Pd Extended and Purr Data. I find bold specially hard on the eyes when checking documentation and help files. I remember there were different points of view, as always, but not that much or strong rejection to making it normal weight. But anyway, this should be a new discussion with as much people involved as possible for the next release.

cheers

wouldn't t is not on purpose, I'd say this happened

...

Anyway, thanks for the great work!!!

...

If everyone ends up hating this, we could just go back to Courier on

all platforms. At least then we wouldn't have to ship a font....

or what about Comic Sans MS? :-p

*Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 07. Dezember 2017 um 14:40 Uhr *Von:* "Dan Wilcox" danomatika@gmail.com *An:* "Lucas Cordiviola" lucarda27@hotmail.com, "Christof Ressi" < christof.ressi@gmx.at> *Cc:* Pd-List pd-list@lists.iem.at *Betreff:* Re: [PD] Fw: Re: [PD-announce] Pd 0.48-1 test version released Yes, the sizes are a little smaller/tighter and come from Pd-extended. Things work best with DejaVu Sans Mono so rendering should be the same using the same font. For more info, see: https://github.com/pure- data/pure-data/pull/159

If everyone ends up hating this, we could just go back to Courier on all platforms. At least then we wouldn't have to ship a font....

Note: DejaVu Sans Mono is the default font but it's not currently shipped with or loaded by Pd on Windows yet. There is some extra work needed for this and it seemed important to fix the sizing issues on macOS first. I wrote up some info about the fonts in https://github.com/pure- data/pure-data/blob/master/font/README.txt

Also, zooming now works for all guis, the inlets & outlets are the same height, lots of little drawing bugs were fixed (VU scale not completly hidden), etc etc etc.

On Dec 5, 2017, at 7:35 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote:

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:14:59 +0000 From: Lucas Cordiviola lucarda27@hotmail.com To: "pd-list@lists.iem.at" pd-list@lists.iem.at, Christof Ressi christof.ressi@gmx.at Subject: Re: [PD] Fw: Re: [PD-announce] Pd 0.48-1 test version released Message-ID: <BLUPR01MB552BC5EB5950BA429B62D5FA63D0@BLUPR01MB552.prod.exchangelabs.com

...

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Christof,

Yes this changes were totally intentional, and are for good IMO, now patches render the same on all platforms!.

They were well tested, see: https://github.com/pure- data/pure-data/pull/227

: - )

---

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On 12/08/2017 02:00 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:

But my point is that I think it should have the same default option consistently accross platforms one way or another.

so to keep the disruption at a minimum, i'd suggest to change the default to *bold* on OSX, rather than to *normal* on all other platforms (W32, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Hurd, ...)

gfmdars IOhannes

@ Dan

I think TWAPI works on any windows machine. I'm not against that we do it your way but does that means it will work on all windows versions? Will you be able to test that? I'm saying this just to save your time. We can use TWAPI now and you have plenty of time to find something better some future sunday afternoon.

Here the PR (it didn't took me 10minutes): https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/270

Here is a Test version (also it didn't took me 10minutes): http://lucarda.com.ar/x/dejavu/pd-dejavu-test-w32.zip

Is working on win8.1 & win10 (I don't have a win7 atm to test)

Can you test it on a win7 machine?

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 12/12/2017 8:15 AM, Dan Wilcox wrote: You misunderstand me.

I'm not against something that #1 works and is #2 maintainable. I'm not sure that this fix is either yet. You can, of course, do some testing and prove that it meets #1 and #2. I naturally do *not* speak for Miller who largely ends up responsible for many of these things, but I'm really just trying to be similarly skeptical towards solutions that involve adding all sorts of *this* and *that*.

#1 Works:

TWAPI is a precompiled TCL/TK library for the Windows API, does the binary you've included work for *all* versions of Windows versions that Pd users are likely to have (or at least most)? The catch should handle most problems but if *lots* of people are using Windows 7 and this doesn't actually work on Windows 7 but works for *you* on say Windows 10, then maybe it's not a real fix yet? I know the windows api has been historically stable but I don't know about C libs & TCL libs complied against it.

#2 Maintainable:

How often does TWAPI change? Is it stable? Who will keep track of updating the binary copy in the Pd repo?

(#3) Also, I'm against requiring an entire single-platform library for essentially 2 loading calls. This is really one of my more main reasons to be skeptical as, once again, we can write our *own* tiny C TCL binding library just for Pd which loads the fonts and is only built & loaded on Windows. I've found documentation and sample code on doing this, I just have not been able to find the time to get to it yet. I feel this approach would be more maintainable and understandable in the longer run even if it's not a 10 minute solution.

We have been moving in steps: getting Pd to build in autotools on Windows leads directly to building a tiny font loading library. :) Step by step...

On Dec 7, 2017, at 6:40 PM, Lucas Cordiviola <lucarda27@hotmail.commailto:lucarda27@hotmail.com> wrote:

Note: DejaVu Sans Mono is the default font but it's not currently shipped with or loaded by Pd on Windows yet. There is some extra work needed for this

I got work on this, see:

http://lucarda.com.ar/x/dejavu/readme.html

@Dan

Do I make a PR and we forget about it?

Is not a big deal and you always opposed it. I think an other method will be always postponed and will make it by 0.57-9test3.

: -)

--

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 12/7/2017 10:40 AM, Dan Wilcox wrote: Yes, the sizes are a little smaller/tighter and come from Pd-extended. Things work best with DejaVu Sans Mono so rendering should be the same using the same font. For more info, see: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/159

If everyone ends up hating this, we could just go back to Courier on all platforms. At least then we wouldn't have to ship a font....

Note: DejaVu Sans Mono is the default font but it's not currently shipped with or loaded by Pd on Windows yet. There is some extra work needed for this and it seemed important to fix the sizing issues on macOS first. I wrote up some info about the fonts in https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/blob/master/font/README.txt

Also, zooming now works for all guis, the inlets & outlets are the same height, lots of little drawing bugs were fixed (VU scale not completly hidden), etc etc etc.

On Dec 5, 2017, at 7:35 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.atmailto:pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote:

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:14:59 +0000 From: Lucas Cordiviola <lucarda27@hotmail.commailto:lucarda27@hotmail.com> To: "pd-list@lists.iem.atmailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at" <pd-list@lists.iem.atmailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at>, Christof Ressi <christof.ressi@gmx.atmailto:christof.ressi@gmx.at> Subject: Re: [PD] Fw: Re: [PD-announce] Pd 0.48-1 test version released Message-ID: <BLUPR01MB552BC5EB5950BA429B62D5FA63D0@BLUPR01MB552.prod.exchangelabs.commailto:BLUPR01MB552BC5EB5950BA429B62D5FA63D0@BLUPR01MB552.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Christof,

Yes this changes were totally intentional, and are for good IMO, now patches render the same on all platforms!.

They were well tested, see: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/227

: - )

Dan Wilcox @danomatikahttp://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.comhttp://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.comhttp://robotcowboy.com/

Dan Wilcox @danomatikahttp://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.comhttp://danomatika.com robotcowboy.comhttp://robotcowboy.com

I don't think asking a couple legitimate questions is paranoia. When adding any kind of library to a software project, you always want to balance what the library provides with having another dependency. It can be easy to add the kitchen sink but hard to maintain it.

Since it's a TCL extension, worse case is that it can't be loaded and Pd runs fine without it. So less of a worry in some ways as compared to a C library.

enohp ym morf tnes

Dan Wilcox danomatika.com robotcowboy.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:43 PM, Lucas Cordiviola lucarda27@hotmail.com wrote:

@Dan

more:

Why are you paranoid about TWAPI ? Is open source. Is up and running since 2007, last update november 2017.

Developers surely had tested that it works from win7 to win10.

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

...

On 12/12/2017 1:57 PM, Lucas Cordiviola wrote: @ Dan

I think TWAPI works on any windows machine. I'm not against that we do it your way but does that means it will work on all windows versions? Will you be able to test that? I'm saying this just to save your time. We can use TWAPI now and you have plenty of time to find something better some future sunday afternoon.

Here the PR (it didn't took me 10minutes): https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/270

Here is a Test version (also it didn't took me 10minutes): http://lucarda.com.ar/x/dejavu/pd-dejavu-test-w32.zip

Is working on win8.1 & win10 (I don't have a win7 atm to test)

Can you test it on a win7 machine?

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

...

On 12/12/2017 8:15 AM, Dan Wilcox wrote: You misunderstand me.

I'm not against something that #1 works and is #2 maintainable. I'm not sure that this fix is either yet. You can, of course, do some testing and prove that it meets #1 and #2. I naturally do *not* speak for Miller who largely ends up responsible for many of these things, but I'm really just trying to be similarly skeptical towards solutions that involve adding all sorts of *this* and *that*.

#1 Works:

TWAPI is a precompiled TCL/TK library for the Windows API, does the binary you've included work for *all* versions of Windows versions that Pd users are likely to have (or at least most)? The catch should handle most problems but if *lots* of people are using Windows 7 and this doesn't actually work on Windows 7 but works for *you* on say Windows 10, then maybe it's not a real fix yet? I know the windows api has been historically stable but I don't know about C libs & TCL libs complied against it.

#2 Maintainable:

How often does TWAPI change? Is it stable? Who will keep track of updating the binary copy in the Pd repo?

(#3) Also, I'm against requiring an entire single-platform library for essentially 2 loading calls. This is really one of my more main reasons to be skeptical as, once again, we can write our *own* tiny C TCL binding library just for Pd which loads the fonts and is only built & loaded on Windows. I've found documentation and sample code on doing this, I just have not been able to find the time to get to it yet. I feel this approach would be more maintainable and understandable in the longer run even if it's not a 10 minute solution.

We have been moving in steps: getting Pd to build in autotools on Windows leads directly to building a tiny font loading library. :) Step by step...

...

On Dec 7, 2017, at 6:40 PM, Lucas Cordiviola lucarda27@hotmail.com wrote:

...

Note: DejaVu Sans Mono is the default font but it's not currently shipped with or loaded by Pd on Windows yet. There is some extra work needed for this

I got work on this, see:

http://lucarda.com.ar/x/dejavu/readme.html
@Dan

Do I make a PR and we forget about it?

Is not a big deal and you always opposed it. I think an other method will be always postponed and will make it by 0.57-9test3.

: -)

-- Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

...

On 12/7/2017 10:40 AM, Dan Wilcox wrote: Yes, the sizes are a little smaller/tighter and come from Pd-extended. Things work best with DejaVu Sans Mono so rendering should be the same using the same font. For more info, see: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/159

If everyone ends up hating this, we could just go back to Courier on all platforms. At least then we wouldn't have to ship a font....

Note: DejaVu Sans Mono is the default font but it's not currently shipped with or loaded by Pd on Windows yet. There is some extra work needed for this and it seemed important to fix the sizing issues on macOS first. I wrote up some info about the fonts in https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/blob/master/font/README.txt

Also, zooming now works for all guis, the inlets & outlets are the same height, lots of little drawing bugs were fixed (VU scale not completly hidden), etc etc etc.

...

On Dec 5, 2017, at 7:35 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote:

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:14:59 +0000 From: Lucas Cordiviola lucarda27@hotmail.com To: "pd-list@lists.iem.at" pd-list@lists.iem.at, Christof Ressi christof.ressi@gmx.at Subject: Re: [PD] Fw: Re: [PD-announce] Pd 0.48-1 test version released Message-ID: BLUPR01MB552BC5EB5950BA429B62D5FA63D0@BLUPR01MB552.prod.exchangelabs.com

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Christof,

Yes this changes were totally intentional, and are for good IMO, now patches render the same on all platforms!.

They were well tested, see: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/227

: - )

---

Dan Wilcox @danomatika danomatika.com robotcowboy.com

---

Dan Wilcox @danomatika danomatika.com robotcowboy.com

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Ooops, I dont know why this mail went to the junk folder yesterday.

In any case TWAPI is not a dependency. Pd will use ”Courier” if TWAPI fails (or if it is not present) or if the fonts are missing.

Please give this PR a chance on 0.48-1, is immune on Linux and macOS, and fail-proof on Windows. IOhannes has reviewed and approved it.

https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/270

Here is a Pd 0.48.1-test3 to test functionality and dis-functionality:

http://lucarda.com.ar/x/dejavu/pd-dejavu-test-w32.zip

--

Lucarda

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 12/12/2017 7:41 PM, Miller Puckette wrote:

Me, I'm paranoid :)

I haven't looked at TWAPI yet, but in general there would have to be a compelling reason to add a dependency to Pd. I'm trying to make sure everything that goes in there will still be running 30-ish years in the future.

cheers Miller

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 11:21:29PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:

...

I don't think asking a couple legitimate questions is paranoia. When adding any kind of library to a software project, you always want to balance what the library provides with having another dependency. It can be easy to add the kitchen sink but hard to maintain it.

Since it's a TCL extension, worse case is that it can't be loaded and Pd runs fine without it. So less of a worry in some ways as compared to a C library.

enohp ym morf tnes

Dan Wilcox danomatika.com robotcowboy.com

...

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:43 PM, Lucas Cordiviola lucarda27@hotmail.com wrote:

@Dan

more:

Why are you paranoid about TWAPI ? Is open source. Is up and running since 2007, last update november 2017.

Developers surely had tested that it works from win7 to win10.

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

...

On 12/12/2017 1:57 PM, Lucas Cordiviola wrote: @ Dan

I think TWAPI works on any windows machine. I'm not against that we do it your way but does that means it will work on all windows versions? Will you be able to test that? I'm saying this just to save your time. We can use TWAPI now and you have plenty of time to find something better some future sunday afternoon.

Here the PR (it didn't took me 10minutes): https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/270

Here is a Test version (also it didn't took me 10minutes): http://lucarda.com.ar/x/dejavu/pd-dejavu-test-w32.zip

Is working on win8.1 & win10 (I don't have a win7 atm to test)

Can you test it on a win7 machine?

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

...

On 12/12/2017 8:15 AM, Dan Wilcox wrote: You misunderstand me.

I'm not against something that #1 works and is #2 maintainable. I'm not sure that this fix is either yet. You can, of course, do some testing and prove that it meets #1 and #2. I naturally do *not* speak for Miller who largely ends up responsible for many of these things, but I'm really just trying to be similarly skeptical towards solutions that involve adding all sorts of *this* and *that*.

#1 Works:

TWAPI is a precompiled TCL/TK library for the Windows API, does the binary you've included work for *all* versions of Windows versions that Pd users are likely to have (or at least most)? The catch should handle most problems but if *lots* of people are using Windows 7 and this doesn't actually work on Windows 7 but works for *you* on say Windows 10, then maybe it's not a real fix yet? I know the windows api has been historically stable but I don't know about C libs & TCL libs complied against it.

#2 Maintainable:

How often does TWAPI change? Is it stable? Who will keep track of updating the binary copy in the Pd repo?

(#3) Also, I'm against requiring an entire single-platform library for essentially 2 loading calls. This is really one of my more main reasons to be skeptical as, once again, we can write our *own* tiny C TCL binding library just for Pd which loads the fonts and is only built & loaded on Windows. I've found documentation and sample code on doing this, I just have not been able to find the time to get to it yet. I feel this approach would be more maintainable and understandable in the longer run even if it's not a 10 minute solution.

We have been moving in steps: getting Pd to build in autotools on Windows leads directly to building a tiny font loading library. :) Step by step...

...

On Dec 7, 2017, at 6:40 PM, Lucas Cordiviola lucarda27@hotmail.com wrote:

> Note: DejaVu Sans Mono is the default font but it's not currently shipped with or loaded by Pd on Windows yet. There is some extra work needed for this I got work on this, see:

http://lucarda.com.ar/x/dejavu/readme.html @Dan

Do I make a PR and we forget about it?

Is not a big deal and you always opposed it. I think an other method will be always postponed and will make it by 0.57-9test3.

: -)

-- Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas. > On 12/7/2017 10:40 AM, Dan Wilcox wrote: > Yes, the sizes are a little smaller/tighter and come from Pd-extended. Things work best with DejaVu Sans Mono so rendering should be the same using the same font. For more info, see: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/159 > > If everyone ends up hating this, we could just go back to Courier on all platforms. At least then we wouldn't have to ship a font.... > > Note: DejaVu Sans Mono is the default font but it's not currently shipped with or loaded by Pd on Windows yet. There is some extra work needed for this and it seemed important to fix the sizing issues on macOS first. I wrote up some info about the fonts in https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/blob/master/font/README.txt > > Also, zooming now works for all guis, the inlets & outlets are the same height, lots of little drawing bugs were fixed (VU scale not completly hidden), etc etc etc. > >> On Dec 5, 2017, at 7:35 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote: >> >> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:14:59 +0000 >> From: Lucas Cordiviola lucarda27@hotmail.com >> To: "pd-list@lists.iem.at" pd-list@lists.iem.at, Christof Ressi >> christof.ressi@gmx.at >> Subject: Re: [PD] Fw: Re: [PD-announce] Pd 0.48-1 test version >> released >> Message-ID: >> BLUPR01MB552BC5EB5950BA429B62D5FA63D0@BLUPR01MB552.prod.exchangelabs.com >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi Christof, >> >> Yes this changes were totally intentional, and are for good IMO, now patches render the same on all platforms!. >> >> They were well tested, see: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/227 >> >> >> : - ) > -------- > Dan Wilcox > @danomatika > danomatika.com > robotcowboy.com > > >

---

Dan Wilcox @danomatika danomatika.com robotcowboy.com

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Good.

I'm glad that we talked about it and find answers to our legitimate questions.

Since it's a TCL extension, worse case is that it can't be loaded and Pd runs fine without it. So less of a worry in some ways as compared to a C library.

So you are starting to like the TWAPI thing?

Could you review the PR and approve or disapprove it, or request changes?

I don't have anything left to say on this issue.

: )

Lucarda.

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 12/12/2017 7:21 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote: I don't think asking a couple legitimate questions is paranoia. When adding any kind of library to a software project, you always want to balance what the library provides with having another dependency. It can be easy to add the kitchen sink but hard to maintain it.

Since it's a TCL extension, worse case is that it can't be loaded and Pd runs fine without it. So less of a worry in some ways as compared to a C library.

enohp ym morf tnes

Dan Wilcox danomatika.comhttp://danomatika.com robotcowboy.comhttp://robotcowboy.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:43 PM, Lucas Cordiviola <lucarda27@hotmail.commailto:lucarda27@hotmail.com> wrote:

@Dan

more:

Why are you paranoid about TWAPIhttp://twapi.magicsplat.com/ ? Is open source. Is up and running since 2007, last update november 2017.

Developers surely had tested that it works from win7 to win10.

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 12/12/2017 1:57 PM, Lucas Cordiviola wrote:

@ Dan

I think TWAPI works on any windows machine. I'm not against that we do it your way but does that means it will work on all windows versions? Will you be able to test that? I'm saying this just to save your time. We can use TWAPI now and you have plenty of time to find something better some future sunday afternoon.

Here the PR (it didn't took me 10minutes): https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/270

Here is a Test version (also it didn't took me 10minutes): http://lucarda.com.ar/x/dejavu/pd-dejavu-test-w32.zip

Is working on win8.1 & win10 (I don't have a win7 atm to test)

Can you test it on a win7 machine?

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 12/12/2017 8:15 AM, Dan Wilcox wrote: You misunderstand me.

I'm not against something that #1 works and is #2 maintainable. I'm not sure that this fix is either yet. You can, of course, do some testing and prove that it meets #1 and #2. I naturally do *not* speak for Miller who largely ends up responsible for many of these things, but I'm really just trying to be similarly skeptical towards solutions that involve adding all sorts of *this* and *that*.

#1 Works:

TWAPI is a precompiled TCL/TK library for the Windows API, does the binary you've included work for *all* versions of Windows versions that Pd users are likely to have (or at least most)? The catch should handle most problems but if *lots* of people are using Windows 7 and this doesn't actually work on Windows 7 but works for *you* on say Windows 10, then maybe it's not a real fix yet? I know the windows api has been historically stable but I don't know about C libs & TCL libs complied against it.

#2 Maintainable:

How often does TWAPI change? Is it stable? Who will keep track of updating the binary copy in the Pd repo?

(#3) Also, I'm against requiring an entire single-platform library for essentially 2 loading calls. This is really one of my more main reasons to be skeptical as, once again, we can write our *own* tiny C TCL binding library just for Pd which loads the fonts and is only built & loaded on Windows. I've found documentation and sample code on doing this, I just have not been able to find the time to get to it yet. I feel this approach would be more maintainable and understandable in the longer run even if it's not a 10 minute solution.

We have been moving in steps: getting Pd to build in autotools on Windows leads directly to building a tiny font loading library. :) Step by step...

On Dec 7, 2017, at 6:40 PM, Lucas Cordiviola <lucarda27@hotmail.commailto:lucarda27@hotmail.com> wrote:

Note: DejaVu Sans Mono is the default font but it's not currently shipped with or loaded by Pd on Windows yet. There is some extra work needed for this

I got work on this, see:

http://lucarda.com.ar/x/dejavu/readme.html

@Dan

Do I make a PR and we forget about it?

Is not a big deal and you always opposed it. I think an other method will be always postponed and will make it by 0.57-9test3.

: -)

--

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 12/7/2017 10:40 AM, Dan Wilcox wrote: Yes, the sizes are a little smaller/tighter and come from Pd-extended. Things work best with DejaVu Sans Mono so rendering should be the same using the same font. For more info, see: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/159

If everyone ends up hating this, we could just go back to Courier on all platforms. At least then we wouldn't have to ship a font....

Note: DejaVu Sans Mono is the default font but it's not currently shipped with or loaded by Pd on Windows yet. There is some extra work needed for this and it seemed important to fix the sizing issues on macOS first. I wrote up some info about the fonts in https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/blob/master/font/README.txt

Also, zooming now works for all guis, the inlets & outlets are the same height, lots of little drawing bugs were fixed (VU scale not completly hidden), etc etc etc.

On Dec 5, 2017, at 7:35 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.atmailto:pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote:

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:14:59 +0000 From: Lucas Cordiviola <lucarda27@hotmail.commailto:lucarda27@hotmail.com> To: "pd-list@lists.iem.atmailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at" <pd-list@lists.iem.atmailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at>, Christof Ressi <christof.ressi@gmx.atmailto:christof.ressi@gmx.at> Subject: Re: [PD] Fw: Re: [PD-announce] Pd 0.48-1 test version released Message-ID: <BLUPR01MB552BC5EB5950BA429B62D5FA63D0@BLUPR01MB552.prod.exchangelabs.commailto:BLUPR01MB552BC5EB5950BA429B62D5FA63D0@BLUPR01MB552.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Christof,

Yes this changes were totally intentional, and are for good IMO, now patches render the same on all platforms!.

They were well tested, see: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/227

: - )

Dan Wilcox @danomatikahttp://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.comhttp://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.comhttp://robotcowboy.com/

Dan Wilcox @danomatikahttp://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.comhttp://danomatika.com robotcowboy.comhttp://robotcowboy.com

Pd-list@lists.iem.atmailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Ok. No need to rush.

Thanks!

: )

Lucarda.

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 12/12/2017 7:58 PM, Miller Puckette wrote:

I can give it a look - but I doubt I'll manage to get it into 0.48-1 - I can really only manage bug fixes ATM.

cheers M

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 10:52:09PM +0000, Lucas Cordiviola wrote:

...

Good.

I'm glad that we talked about it and find answers to our legitimate questions.

Since it's a TCL extension, worse case is that it can't be loaded and Pd runs fine without it. So less of a worry in some ways as compared to a C library.

So you are starting to like the TWAPI thing?

Could you review the PR and approve or disapprove it, or request changes?

I don't have anything left to say on this issue.

: )

Lucarda.

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 12/12/2017 7:21 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote: I don't think asking a couple legitimate questions is paranoia. When adding any kind of library to a software project, you always want to balance what the library provides with having another dependency. It can be easy to add the kitchen sink but hard to maintain it.

Since it's a TCL extension, worse case is that it can't be loaded and Pd runs fine without it. So less of a worry in some ways as compared to a C library.

enohp ym morf tnes

Dan Wilcox danomatika.comhttp://danomatika.com robotcowboy.comhttp://robotcowboy.com

On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:43 PM, Lucas Cordiviola <lucarda27@hotmail.commailto:lucarda27@hotmail.com> wrote:

@Dan

more:

Why are you paranoid about TWAPIhttp://twapi.magicsplat.com/ ? Is open source. Is up and running since 2007, last update november 2017.

Developers surely had tested that it works from win7 to win10.

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 12/12/2017 1:57 PM, Lucas Cordiviola wrote:

@ Dan

I think TWAPI works on any windows machine. I'm not against that we do it your way but does that means it will work on all windows versions? Will you be able to test that? I'm saying this just to save your time. We can use TWAPI now and you have plenty of time to find something better some future sunday afternoon.

Here the PR (it didn't took me 10minutes): https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/270

Here is a Test version (also it didn't took me 10minutes): http://lucarda.com.ar/x/dejavu/pd-dejavu-test-w32.zip

Is working on win8.1 & win10 (I don't have a win7 atm to test)

Can you test it on a win7 machine?

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 12/12/2017 8:15 AM, Dan Wilcox wrote: You misunderstand me.

I'm not against something that #1 works and is #2 maintainable. I'm not sure that this fix is either yet. You can, of course, do some testing and prove that it meets #1 and #2. I naturally do *not* speak for Miller who largely ends up responsible for many of these things, but I'm really just trying to be similarly skeptical towards solutions that involve adding all sorts of *this* and *that*.

#1 Works:

TWAPI is a precompiled TCL/TK library for the Windows API, does the binary you've included work for *all* versions of Windows versions that Pd users are likely to have (or at least most)? The catch should handle most problems but if *lots* of people are using Windows 7 and this doesn't actually work on Windows 7 but works for *you* on say Windows 10, then maybe it's not a real fix yet? I know the windows api has been historically stable but I don't know about C libs & TCL libs complied against it.

#2 Maintainable:

How often does TWAPI change? Is it stable? Who will keep track of updating the binary copy in the Pd repo?

(#3) Also, I'm against requiring an entire single-platform library for essentially 2 loading calls. This is really one of my more main reasons to be skeptical as, once again, we can write our *own* tiny C TCL binding library just for Pd which loads the fonts and is only built & loaded on Windows. I've found documentation and sample code on doing this, I just have not been able to find the time to get to it yet. I feel this approach would be more maintainable and understandable in the longer run even if it's not a 10 minute solution.

We have been moving in steps: getting Pd to build in autotools on Windows leads directly to building a tiny font loading library. :) Step by step...

On Dec 7, 2017, at 6:40 PM, Lucas Cordiviola <lucarda27@hotmail.commailto:lucarda27@hotmail.com> wrote:

Note: DejaVu Sans Mono is the default font but it's not currently shipped with or loaded by Pd on Windows yet. There is some extra work needed for this

I got work on this, see:

http://lucarda.com.ar/x/dejavu/readme.html

@Dan

Do I make a PR and we forget about it?

Is not a big deal and you always opposed it. I think an other method will be always postponed and will make it by 0.57-9test3.

: -)

--

Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.

On 12/7/2017 10:40 AM, Dan Wilcox wrote: Yes, the sizes are a little smaller/tighter and come from Pd-extended. Things work best with DejaVu Sans Mono so rendering should be the same using the same font. For more info, see: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/159

If everyone ends up hating this, we could just go back to Courier on all platforms. At least then we wouldn't have to ship a font....

Note: DejaVu Sans Mono is the default font but it's not currently shipped with or loaded by Pd on Windows yet. There is some extra work needed for this and it seemed important to fix the sizing issues on macOS first. I wrote up some info about the fonts in https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/blob/master/font/README.txt

Also, zooming now works for all guis, the inlets & outlets are the same height, lots of little drawing bugs were fixed (VU scale not completly hidden), etc etc etc.

On Dec 5, 2017, at 7:35 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.atmailto:pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote:

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:14:59 +0000 From: Lucas Cordiviola <lucarda27@hotmail.commailto:lucarda27@hotmail.com> To: "pd-list@lists.iem.atmailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at" <pd-list@lists.iem.atmailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at>, Christof Ressi <christof.ressi@gmx.atmailto:christof.ressi@gmx.at> Subject: Re: [PD] Fw: Re: [PD-announce] Pd 0.48-1 test version released Message-ID: <BLUPR01MB552BC5EB5950BA429B62D5FA63D0@BLUPR01MB552.prod.exchangelabs.commailto:BLUPR01MB552BC5EB5950BA429B62D5FA63D0@BLUPR01MB552.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Christof,

Yes this changes were totally intentional, and are for good IMO, now patches render the same on all platforms!.

They were well tested, see: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/227

: - )

---

Dan Wilcox @danomatikahttp://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.comhttp://danomatika.com/ robotcowboy.comhttp://robotcowboy.com/

---

Dan Wilcox @danomatikahttp://twitter.com/danomatika danomatika.comhttp://danomatika.com robotcowboy.comhttp://robotcowboy.com

---

Pd-list@lists.iem.atmailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list