There was a short discussion of interfaces a while back, and I brought up touchscreens, and some people didn't understand why I would want one. I hope this sums it up:
http://ted.com/tedtalks/tedtalksplayer.cfm?key=j_han&flashEnabled=1
-Chuckk
I KNEW this had to have something to do with Jeff Han. Brilliant technology. As I understand it, Apple Computer has gotten involved financially with this. I'd love to see it implemented!
~Kyle
On 11/7/06, Chuckk Hubbard badmuthahubbard@gmail.com wrote:
There was a short discussion of interfaces a while back, and I brought up touchscreens, and some people didn't understand why I would want one. I hope this sums it up:
http://ted.com/tedtalks/tedtalksplayer.cfm?key=j_han&flashEnabled=1
-Chuckk
-- "Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." -Theodore Roosevelt
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Am 08.11.2006 um 05:46 schrieb Kyle Klipowicz:
I KNEW this had to have something to do with Jeff Han. Brilliant
technology. As I understand it, Apple Computer has gotten involved
financially with this. I'd love to see it implemented!
Actually this is fairly easy to implement. There are a number of
descriptions floating around in the net.
Basically you need a transparent acrylic panel, IR emitters, a beamer
and a fast camera, minor drilling and assembling skills and a multi-
blob video tracker.
I'm currently trying to build such a system.
greetings, Thomas
-- Thomas Grill http://grrrr.org
I think that the most difficult (and useful) thing to do would be some sort of book keeping to track individual fingers. Maybe some sort of gloves or fingertip sensors? That would make things very flexible.
It sounds neat that you're doing an implementation. Please post any satisfying results to the list!
~Kyle
On 11/8/06, Thomas Grill gr@grrrr.org wrote:
Am 08.11.2006 um 05:46 schrieb Kyle Klipowicz:
I KNEW this had to have something to do with Jeff Han. Brilliant technology. As I understand it, Apple Computer has gotten involved financially with this. I'd love to see it implemented!
Actually this is fairly easy to implement. There are a number of descriptions floating around in the net. Basically you need a transparent acrylic panel, IR emitters, a beamer and a fast camera, minor drilling and assembling skills and a multi-blob video tracker. I'm currently trying to build such a system.
greetings, Thomas
-- Thomas Grill http://grrrr.org
Actually, the most difficult thing to do is make it work well in the
real world. Making it work isn't too difficult, there are lots of
working variations, including the Pd-powered reacTable. But video
tracking is really limited. You have to have completely steady
lighting conditions (notice the lights were turned off in that demo).
I used that exact table interface at NIME at IRCAM. It is certainly
nifty, but it needs work to work in the real world. The problem with
video tracking is that there is no way to to track your finger,
instead it just tracks shadows. What happens is if the video
tracking looses track of your finger for one instant, then it thinks
you picked up your finger and put it back on the table. That can
definitely screw up your actions. And unfortunately which ever video
tracking system thing I have seen, that exact thing happens quite
frequently.
Then there are multitouch sensors, which probably more reliably track
your finger, but they are quite slow, so they work fine for moving
sliders and pressing buttons, but for drawing or musical control,
they are quite limited.
I think that using pressure sensors will probably be the better way,
over video tracking, but don't hold your breath either way. Plus,
more importantly, I haven't seen any killer apps for this yet, that's
key. Sure, its nifty to wiggle images around and zoom and navigate,
but that's a really simple app. Try making photoshop with that,
where the interface "just disappears" I don't think humans could
remember enough gestures to map all the functions in Photoshop, so a
menu would probably be necessary.
If you want to see a real killer demo, check out the 1968 demo of
Doug Engelbart's Augmentation Research Center. That's a real demo.
They basically showed up when many people were still using
punchcards, and interactive computing was just beginning to take
hold. They should a actual, functional system with hyperlinks, a
basic GUI, the mouse, video conferencing, custom computer furniture,
etc. when most people were excited to be using the terminal:
http://sloan.stanford.edu/mousesite/1968Demo.html
I guess I am just sick of the amount of hype these days. All these
"media labs" put so much energy into hype, instead of making better
things.
There, that's my rant.
.hc
On Nov 8, 2006, at 1:02 PM, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
I think that the most difficult (and useful) thing to do would be
some sort of book keeping to track individual fingers. Maybe some
sort of gloves or fingertip sensors? That would make things very
flexible.It sounds neat that you're doing an implementation. Please post
any satisfying results to the list!~Kyle
On 11/8/06, Thomas Grill gr@grrrr.org wrote:
Am 08.11.2006 um 05:46 schrieb Kyle Klipowicz:
I KNEW this had to have something to do with Jeff Han. Brilliant
technology. As I understand it, Apple Computer has gotten
involved financially with this. I'd love to see it implemented!Actually this is fairly easy to implement. There are a number of
descriptions floating around in the net. Basically you need a transparent acrylic panel, IR emitters, a
beamer and a fast camera, minor drilling and assembling skills and
a multi-blob video tracker. I'm currently trying to build such a system.greetings, Thomas
-- Thomas Grill http://grrrr.org
--
http://theradioproject.com http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())()))) (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((()))) ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________ _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______ ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO _______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
Access to computers should be unlimited and total. - the hacker ethic
The problem with video tracking is that there is no way to to track your finger,
-It lacks the physical contacts.
instead it just tracks shadows. What happens is if the video tracking looses >track of your finger for one instant, then it thinks you picked up your finger >and put it back on the table. That can definitely screw up your actions. And >unfortunately which ever video tracking system thing I have seen, that exact >thing happens quite frequently.
-If you want to control things in concert, this is clearly something you can do without.
Then there are multitouch sensors, which probably more reliably track your
finger, but they are quite slow, so they work fine for moving sliders and pressing buttons, but for drawing or musical control, they are quite
limited.
-Lemur seems to be 'performable', because at least there is no free space the surface and your fingers.
I think that using pressure sensors will probably be the better way,
-FSR's are still very usable.
over video tracking, but don't hold your breath either way. Plus, more
importantly, I haven't seen any killer apps for this yet, that's key.
Sure, >its nifty to wiggle images around and zoom and navigate, but that's a really >simple app. -I guess that's what 'modern video art realtime processing' is all about...
I am just sick of the amount of hype these days. All these "media labs" put so >much energy into hype,
-The 'medium is the message', no matter how crappy this al in one is.
instead of making better things.
-Takes too much time and needs a longer attention-span than generally people are capable of. No typing, just connecting virtual wires to virual boxes.
AvS
On Sun, 12 Nov 2006, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
If you want to see a real killer demo, check out the 1968 demo of Doug Engelbart's Augmentation Research Center.
Yes, I often mention that one.
They should a actual, functional system with hyperlinks, a basic GUI, the mouse, video conferencing, custom computer furniture, etc.
AFAIK, he invented a lot of things: not only the mouse, but also undo/redo, copy/cut/paste, and foldable trees; also it might have been the first implementation of hyperlinks, but the concept is usually attributed to Vannevar.
when most people were excited to be using the terminal:
BTW, back then, a "terminal" usually didn't have a monitor. If you had one, then what you had had to be called "Video Terminal" (VT) to make sure that people knew that you had those newfangled monitors. Else, terminals were usually typewriters equipped with a serial port. This explains some things in computer history, like how old UNIX "plain text" often used the backspace code (0x08) to mean "superimpose two characters", and especially in combination with underscore to mean underline.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
I'm envisioning a musical instrument akin to a keyboard that retunes itself. Wendy Carlos made something like this, I think, but I want something more versatile. Monzo lattices, maybe, for selecting notes, and then separate commands for transposing the whole system of notes to different roots. Monzo: http://tonalsoft.com/enc/l/lattice.aspx
I'd also like to try an instrument that displays its frequencies linearly instead of logarithmically. I could do that without one of these interfaces, but I'd like to try playing it with some kind of multiple-touch screen. A pedal or two might help with this as well.
-Chuckk
On 11/12/06, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:
Actually, the most difficult thing to do is make it work well in the real world. Making it work isn't too difficult, there are lots of working variations, including the Pd-powered reacTable. But video tracking is really limited. You have to have completely steady lighting conditions (notice the lights were turned off in that demo).
I used that exact table interface at NIME at IRCAM. It is certainly nifty, but it needs work to work in the real world. The problem with video tracking is that there is no way to to track your finger, instead it just tracks shadows. What happens is if the video tracking looses track of your finger for one instant, then it thinks you picked up your finger and put it back on the table. That can definitely screw up your actions. And unfortunately which ever video tracking system thing I have seen, that exact thing happens quite frequently.
Then there are multitouch sensors, which probably more reliably track your finger, but they are quite slow, so they work fine for moving sliders and pressing buttons, but for drawing or musical control, they are quite limited.
I think that using pressure sensors will probably be the better way, over video tracking, but don't hold your breath either way. Plus, more importantly, I haven't seen any killer apps for this yet, that's key. Sure, its nifty to wiggle images around and zoom and navigate, but that's a really simple app. Try making photoshop with that, where the interface "just disappears" I don't think humans could remember enough gestures to map all the functions in Photoshop, so a menu would probably be necessary.
If you want to see a real killer demo, check out the 1968 demo of Doug Engelbart's Augmentation Research Center. That's a real demo. They basically showed up when many people were still using punchcards, and interactive computing was just beginning to take hold. They should a actual, functional system with hyperlinks, a basic GUI, the mouse, video conferencing, custom computer furniture, etc. when most people were excited to be using the terminal:
http://sloan.stanford.edu/mousesite/1968Demo.html
I guess I am just sick of the amount of hype these days. All these "media labs" put so much energy into hype, instead of making better things.
There, that's my rant.
.hc
On Nov 8, 2006, at 1:02 PM, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
I think that the most difficult (and useful) thing to do would be some sort of book keeping to track individual fingers. Maybe some sort of gloves or fingertip sensors? That would make things very flexible.
It sounds neat that you're doing an implementation. Please post any satisfying results to the list!
~Kyle
On 11/8/06, Thomas Grill gr@grrrr.org wrote:
Am 08.11.2006 um 05:46 schrieb Kyle Klipowicz:
I KNEW this had to have something to do with Jeff Han. Brilliant
technology. As I understand it, Apple Computer has gotten involved financially with this. I'd love to see it implemented!
Actually this is fairly easy to implement. There are a number of
descriptions floating around in the net.
Basically you need a transparent acrylic panel, IR emitters, a beamer and
a fast camera, minor drilling and assembling skills and a multi-blob video tracker.
I'm currently trying to build such a system.
greetings, Thomas
-- Thomas Grill http://grrrr.org
--
http://theradioproject.com http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())()))) (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((()))) ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________ _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______ ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO _______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Access to computers should be unlimited and total. - the hacker ethic
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Actually, the most difficult thing to do is make it work well in the real world. Making it work isn't too difficult, there are lots of working variations, including the Pd-powered reacTable. But video tracking is really limited. You have to have completely steady lighting conditions (notice the lights were turned off in that demo).
i'm working for a small New Zealand company called Lumen Digital at the moment. we actually have a *very* robust finger-tracking system based on OpenCV that we currently use for digital map interfaces, and one of our future research projects could involve some sort of tracking-based music interactive table.
the lighting conditions do have to be controlled to some degree, but in our case it's not a matter of needing no external light cast over the interface so much as it is in needing lighting that doesn't change too much over the course of interaction. i've just completed install of our table in a gallery which was lit in the vicinity of the table itself by more than 16 halogen bulbs, which together generate a considerable amount of spill and shadow, and through all this our tracker was able to reliably track hands to within a few pixels accuracy on a 1536x1024, roughly 3m x 2m projection.
(by the way, if anyone's looking for a job in digital museum interactives and not averse to moving to beautiful New Zealand to do so, we're looking for programmers at the moment, email me at damian@lumendigital.co.nz or jared forbes at jared@lumendigital.co.nz for details.)
I used that exact table interface at NIME at IRCAM. It is certainly nifty, but it needs work to work in the real world. The problem with video tracking is that there is no way to to track your finger, instead it just tracks shadows.
not so. we track fingers, not shadows.
What happens is if the video tracking looses track of your finger for one instant, then it thinks you picked up your finger and put it back on the table. That can definitely screw up your actions. And unfortunately which ever video tracking system thing I have seen, that exact thing happens quite frequently.
we currently get around that one by not actually detecting whether you're pressing on the table or not (although doing so would just involve a relatively simple capacitance sensor on the table surface). since our table allows for multi-hand tracking (we've tested with up to eight individual users using one or two hands around a 3mx2m table, and theoretically it could go higher) there's no reason why you can't have the right hand doing pointing the and left hand hovering near an active area (or two, or three) that vaguely corresponds to a mouse button click. the trick in our industry is to make it intuitive, so joe public can pick it up in literally five seconds.
Sure, its nifty to wiggle images around and zoom and navigate, but that's a really simple app. Try making photoshop with that, where the interface "just disappears" I don't think humans could remember enough gestures to map all the functions in Photoshop, so a menu would probably be necessary.
gestures are another thing all together. having done tonnes of research before starting to code this project, i ended up concluding that gestures were far too fragile a system for public use, and having a palette of active areas as described above might be better for multiple actions. i remember finding a kind of a system that involving pointing at a small list that, as you got closer to it, kind of expanded in scope so that you were able to zoom through a large tree of options by subtle variations in the direction you moved the mouse. something like this would be ideal.
Damian Stewart wrote:
i remember finding a kind of a system that involving pointing at a small list that, as you got closer to it, kind of expanded in scope so that you were able to zoom through a large tree of options by subtle variations in the direction you moved the mouse. something like this would be ideal.
Something like this?
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/
Claude
Claude Heiland-Allen wrote:
Something like this?
yes! that was the one i was thinking of :-)
well, I'm late in this thread but I don't know if you have already talked here in the list about this great idea for realtime patchers GUI:
"A graphical interface for real-time signal routing" http://hct.ece.ubc.ca/nime/2005/proc/nime2005_089.pdf
Althought it's just for signal routing and don't represents control connections, it seems to be very cool for real-time route changes, that's what they call "rapid routing" (see section 6).
How did nobody thought that before? :D
j.jR.
On 11/13/06, Damian Stewart damian@frey.co.nz wrote:
Claude Heiland-Allen wrote:
Something like this?
yes! that was the one i was thinking of :-)
-- Damian Stewart +64 27 305 4107
f r e y live music with machines http://www.frey.co.nz http://www.myspace.com/freyed
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I've build one last year. Dragging your fingers over the acrylic is a bit annoying after a while, my current setup requires quite some pressure to keep 'wet' contact while dragging. More or better IR light might be helpful, though I'm already using about 10W for a 60x80cm panel. Also the setup needs to be away from direct sunlight, image background subtraction does not eliminate a moving shadow.
.-j
On 11/8/06, Thomas Grill gr@grrrr.org wrote:
Am 08.11.2006 um 05:46 schrieb Kyle Klipowicz: I KNEW this had to have something to do with Jeff Han. Brilliant technology. As I understand it, Apple Computer has gotten involved financially with this. I'd love to see it implemented!
Actually this is fairly easy to implement. There are a number of descriptions floating around in the net. Basically you need a transparent acrylic panel, IR emitters, a beamer and a fast camera, minor drilling and assembling skills and a multi-blob video tracker. I'm currently trying to build such a system.
greetings, Thomas
-- Thomas Grill http://grrrr.org
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hi,
Another application for this frustrated internal reflection type
interface was presented at NIME 2006.
http://recherche.ircam.fr/equipes/temps-reel/nime06/proc/ nime2006_216.pdf
Nick
On 8 Nov 2006, at 04:46, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
I KNEW this had to have something to do with Jeff Han. Brilliant
technology. As I understand it, Apple Computer has gotten involved
financially with this. I'd love to see it implemented!~Kyle
On 11/7/06, Chuckk Hubbard badmuthahubbard@gmail.com wrote: There
was a short discussion of interfaces a while back, and I brought up touchscreens, and some people didn't understand why I would want one. I hope this sums it up:http://ted.com/tedtalks/tedtalksplayer.cfm?key=j_han&flashEnabled=1
-Chuckk
-- "Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." -Theodore Roosevelt
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
--
http://theradioproject.com http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())()))) (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((()))) ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________ _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______ ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO _______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
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Arie van Schutterhoef -
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Claude Heiland-Allen -
Damian Stewart -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Jarbas Jacome -
Johannes Taelman -
Kyle Klipowicz -
Mathieu Bouchard -
nward04＠qub.ac.uk -
Thomas Grill