Hello musicians of the world ! This is a call for you to share your ideas of how to create the logic behind melodies and chords with Pure Data.
I discovered quite a few interesting tricks reading the documentation, but I am still just a newbie. (as I need to read more!) Now I wonder what is used in real world real time generated - or composed - music. This is kind of a survey, just for fun and curiosity. I like to read what composers and developers think and do.
How do you organize, write, store and make interactive:
Forms in musics? (A-B-A-C-A-B-A, variations on a theme and A-B-A, for instance) Musical dynamic phrases (arsis-thesis, "phrasé") Envelope (I saw the ADSR in the doc tough), rhytmic patterns, rhytmic modulations Modulations, scales, modes (Do you store only a Ionien and a ascendant melodic minor and derive all the other from them ?) Chords, alterations and theirs extensions (ordered by favorites to the worst) ((From I to vii)) :: Cmaj7, (Db7b5), Dm7, Em7b9, (E7b9), Fmaj7#11, G7(#4), (Abm6(maj7)), Am7, Bdim7, (etc...) Licks to play on chords progressions (ii - V - I's, etc.) How to order different comportement (arrays, text files, graphs, ...) Color for musical notes. ([fiddle~] and [% 12] or [% 7] on midi numbers) Microtonal and different musical temperaments (i.e. floats in midi)
Do you prefer using graphs, arrays, text files, or whatever to store info that one can browse using [drunk], interactivity or a weighted random to build a tune ?
Also: Do you often put hundreds of [osc~] and [noise~] together to create interesting tones, or do you prefer altering a [phasor~] with a [hip~] ? I would like to do CPU-expansive sound generation using [osc~] formants in polyphonic music but I am afraid it is gonna be too slow. (on a 900 MHz Mac OS X, possibly a Linux box soon) What is the importance of samples and audio realtime inputs compared to generated sounds and midi in Pd and Max/MSP ? (in general)
Thanks for sharing ! And thanks for your patience to read my so-much wide questions...
alexandre quessy
I like Pd's graphical data structures. Check out the composition I
just posted for an example:
http://at.or.at/hans/solitude/
There are envelopes, rhythmic patterns, and timbral transformations,
and perhaps other things...
.hc
On Dec 15, 2004, at 2:40 AM, Alexandre Quessy wrote:
Hello musicians of the world ! This is a call for you to share your
ideas of how to create the logic behind melodies and chords with Pure
Data.I discovered quite a few interesting tricks reading the documentation,
but I am still just a newbie. (as I need to read more!) Now I wonder
what is used in real world real time generated - or composed - music.
This is kind of a survey, just for fun and curiosity. I like to read
what composers and developers think and do.How do you organize, write, store and make interactive:
Forms in musics? (A-B-A-C-A-B-A, variations on a theme and A-B-A, for
instance) Musical dynamic phrases (arsis-thesis, "phrasé") Envelope (I saw the ADSR in the doc tough), rhytmic patterns, rhytmic
modulations Modulations, scales, modes (Do you store only a Ionien and a ascendant
melodic minor and derive all the other from them ?) Chords, alterations and theirs extensions (ordered by favorites to the
worst) ((From I to vii)) :: Cmaj7, (Db7b5), Dm7, Em7b9, (E7b9), Fmaj7#11,
G7(#4), (Abm6(maj7)), Am7, Bdim7, (etc...) Licks to play on chords progressions (ii - V - I's, etc.) How to order different comportement (arrays, text files, graphs, ...) Color for musical notes. ([fiddle~] and [% 12] or [% 7] on midi
numbers) Microtonal and different musical temperaments (i.e. floats in midi)Do you prefer using graphs, arrays, text files, or whatever to store
info that one can browse using [drunk], interactivity or a weighted
random to build a tune ?Also: Do you often put hundreds of [osc~] and [noise~] together to create
interesting tones, or do you prefer altering a [phasor~] with a [hip~]
? I would like to do CPU-expansive sound generation using [osc~]
formants in polyphonic music but I am afraid it is gonna be too slow.
(on a 900 MHz Mac OS X, possibly a Linux box soon) What is the importance of samples and audio realtime inputs compared
to generated sounds and midi in Pd and Max/MSP ? (in general)Thanks for sharing ! And thanks for your patience to read my so-much
wide questions...alexandre quessy
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
"The arc of history bends towards justice."
Dr.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Hans,
Very cool indeed. Just out of curiosity, which prepend are you using?
And this brings us back to nameclashes... I have at least 3 prepend.pd_linux externs on my machine...
./MiS
Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org writes:
I use cyclone's [prepend], but its only needed for the debug stuff
which I removed in the latest release of Solitude source.
.hc
On Dec 18, 2004, at 11:51 AM, Michal Seta wrote:
Hans,
Very cool indeed. Just out of curiosity, which prepend are you using?
And this brings us back to nameclashes... I have at least 3 prepend.pd_linux externs on my machine...
./MiS
Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org writes:
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
Using ReBirth is like trying to play an 808 with a long stick. -David Zicarelli
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Alexandre Quessy wrote:
Forms in musics? (A-B-A-C-A-B-A, variations on a theme and A-B-A, for instance)
They can be stored as integers in a list, and then applied by using [sel] to select various subprograms, or the integer can be used to recall a subform. Subforms can obey the same principles.
rhytmic patterns,
Same thing, assign an integer to every drum sound. For more complexity, more integers per note can be used, to describe velocity and whatever. It's the same as for patterns in melody and such.
scales, modes (Do you store only a Ionien and a ascendant melodic minor and derive all the other from them ?)
I see a scale as a pair of a subset of the 12-note scale together with one note of that scale. Following that definition, it can be found that there are 24576 of them (I think... well, sum 12!/(i-1)!(12-i)! over i).
a subset of the 12-note scale may be represented as a 12-bit integer, so there are 2**12=4096 of them.
modes are scales modulo addition of an offset, so there are 24576/12=2048 of them. They may be represented as 11 bits, each being a toggle for the presence of every non-initial note.
I like to look at those things using modern algebra concepts such as group-quotients, group-actions, orbits, and so on.
Chords,
a chord is just a scale with fewer notes than common scales, so they are all included in the above. this is considering all notes modulo 12 so it doesn't take into account the potential spreading of notes along the keyboard...
I define a subscale as a subset of a scale together with the same starting point as the bigger scale (and of course that same starting point must be an element of the subset). Therefore, chords C, CM7 are both subscales of the full C major scale, and furthermore, some inversions of F, FM7, Am, Am7 also are.
Mathieu Bouchard -=- Montréal QC Canada -=- http://artengine.ca/matju
Hi Matju, hi list. Happy new year.
I'm not sure of what you are talking about. Unfortunately, I'm not a math geek yet. Could you join a simple patch showing a scale and a chord in the way you mean ? I am really visual, and not quite a good english speaker... Also, for beats, do you send them as a list every several beats as in this message : [0 1 3 6{ meaning to play the sounds 0, 1, 3 and 6 on the beat when it is sent ? A little random in those rhythms would help to keep having variety.
If you have the following scale, which is Ionian, how would you then assign a priority order in this list ? 0 2 4 5 7 9 11 Then, the following chord would be a Cmaj7... 0 4 7 11 Great, but if I want a Cmaj7(6/9) it would give : 0 2 4 7 9 11 So, it basically means a Ionian scale... And if I want to play most often the third and the seventh ? It is endless.
And for licks, should I store them as arrays ? One for the rhythm, the other for the melodie...
=====================
Oh, by the way, Thanks Hans-Christoph for the patch with the data-structure. I had a lot of fun discovering this a little further. One day I might release a nice abstraction to build and change data structures. I didn't get your patch to work though. A chance I could listen to your MP3. It seems like my Pd couldn't create [debug] and [linearpan~]. I also got the following error: ((( 'prepend' class incompatibility warning: creating an object without an argument))) I am on Mac X, Pd 0.37.4 extended pre-compiled.
aalex
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Alexandre Quessy wrote:
Forms in musics? (A-B-A-C-A-B-A, variations on a theme and A-B-A, for instance)
They can be stored as integers in a list, and then applied by using [sel] to select various subprograms, or the integer can be used to recall a subform. Subforms can obey the same principles.
rhytmic patterns,
Same thing, assign an integer to every drum sound. For more complexity, more integers per note can be used, to describe velocity and whatever. It's the same as for patterns in melody and such.
scales, modes (Do you store only a Ionien and a ascendant melodic minor and derive all the other from them ?)
I see a scale as a pair of a subset of the 12-note scale together with one note of that scale. Following that definition, it can be found that there are 24576 of them (I think... well, sum 12!/(i-1)!(12-i)! over i).
a subset of the 12-note scale may be represented as a 12-bit integer, so there are 2**12=4096 of them.
modes are scales modulo addition of an offset, so there are 24576/12=2048 of them. They may be represented as 11 bits, each being a toggle for the presence of every non-initial note.
I like to look at those things using modern algebra concepts such as group-quotients, group-actions, orbits, and so on.
Chords,
a chord is just a scale with fewer notes than common scales, so they are all included in the above. this is considering all notes modulo 12 so it doesn't take into account the potential spreading of notes along the keyboard...
I define a subscale as a subset of a scale together with the same starting point as the bigger scale (and of course that same starting point must be an element of the subset). Therefore, chords C, CM7 are both subscales of the full C major scale, and furthermore, some inversions of F, FM7, Am, Am7 also are.
Mathieu Bouchard -=- Montréal QC Canada -=- http://artengine.ca/matju
-
Alexandre Quessy -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Mathieu Bouchard -
Michal Seta