This sounds interesting, I will take a look at it when I get out of work...

As far as what improvisors need, I'm working in the more 'experimental' improv scene right now, which means:

1. They won't be playing 'Cmajor7' but rather collections of pitch

cells such as (0 3 5 1 2 4) in some specific key 2. There will be additional types of symbols and data, or poetic instructions 3. There will be instructions for some improvisors to lead and others to follow the leader at various points 4. The ultimate idea for a current project is that there will be a conductor coordinating improvisors, able to send commands across a network to multiple improvisors on the fly. Of course, this opens the way for a computer to take the role of conductor also. But in either case, there is not a score but rather the structure if the work itself is also improvised anew at every performance, out of a collection of potential cells and potential instructions that define the space of possibilities that any given work inhabits.

In other words, don't think that 'improvisors' means that this is in any way going to be 'jazz'. Think more along the lines of the music of Webern + Morton Feldman + Cecil Taylor + John Cage...

~David

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 4:31 AM, patrice colet pat@mamalala.org wrote:

Sayonara,

How do you display the chords in GEM? I personaly use a jazzfont ttf and curves, the attached patch is an attempt to display a score that any reader would understand because it's written like in the Realbook. Unfortunately I didn't finish this project (like many ones), but it might give a clue I hope.

I really don't think that an improvisator will enjoy to have single notes packets to read for each chord, in fact I don't know any improvisator that need to read something else than jazzchords and melodies for playing, unless they have a notice given with the score where the composer has explained all his weird symbols, quite annoying to make, to play, to read, and to hear...for me.

Also I've started a project for writting scores with datastructures, attached archive is an old sample of this datastructure project, done with the help of F. Barkneicht, I've done something more sophisticated, but the purpose wasn't really about reading/playing/learning music but it's just a 'proof of the concept' game, maybe you will see it through the publication of the PureCorps game started last year...

I think that the advantage of scores displayed by a computer is about having pages (or even better the first line) updated automatically when the reader is at the last line.

I will be need of something functionnal for playing in concerts soon, then will certainly make something that will fit my use and reading abilities, I'll also need to write strange tuplets like the ones you can find in FZ's Black Page... If someone is interested I could update this work in pd-announce ? Anyway, all this stuff won't be as powerful as some lilypond external or something similar...

Jaa.

David Powers a écrit :

...

Hello,

I have a question, how hard do you think it would be create a notation engine for GEM? What considerations would go into the design?

On the simplest level, I'm imagining doing non-rhythmic notation to display chords and cells for improvisors.

Since the number of notes on a chord would be determined on the fly, would it be better to create the max amount of objects and turn off unwanted ones, or better to use dynamic patching? This would simply be to create circles representing noteheads.... Here's my imaginary prototype:

[gemhead] | | | [cell G Ab F# F ( or [chords c4 e4 g4 , F#4 G4 B4 ( or [cell 0 4 3 5 2 1 ( | / | / [treble_clef]

Anybody have any idea what kind of messages I might send such an object?

~David

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1. (0 3 5 1 2 4) might make sense for an engineer because zero for him would

be the first note, but a musician uses to start with one, not zero. If this notation is for expressing some voicings, that is a lot easier and free to read under jazz notation for a human, unless the numbers represents guitar tablatures.

It almost sounds like the machine will help classical musicians or mathemusicians to do like if they were improvising, interesting...

Ah, yes, well I only meant that is the internal representation. The interface would take that input and generate an appropriate output for a given instrument in the correct transposition, so a flute player would see the cell as noteheads on a treble clef.

I'm wondering if I should use something like PyExt to do some of the mapping, as I don't know of any simple way to do hash dictionaries in PD itself. As a test last night, I built a simple abstraction to take notes C C# D etc. and output pitch numbers 0-11, and i found it quite tedius to do compared to a function in code such as (this is in PHP because that is what I do all day long at my day job): function note2number($note) { $num = array ('C'=>0,'C#'=>1,'Db'=>1); return $num[$note]; }

4. I imagine that puredata will have to transpose for each instrument, but

if only the key (or key modulation) is given it would be easy to do.

A dictionnary of symbols is so easier to read than numbers for expressing musical events, that's why I've asked if you used font files, but maybe using gem geos or texture files would make it more elegant or versatile?

I'm not sure about fonts, I guess I don't know whether that would work on multiple operating systems... I just thought that GEM would allow it to work on any OS. I agree it might be nice to use already built musical symbols rather than reinventing the wheel. Then I would only need GEM to draw the staff lines and position the noteheads and symbols in relation to it.

~David

Just remember I've made an abstraction for that long ago, it won't be as fast as DS but it works and it's attached

patrice colet a écrit :

David Powers a écrit :

...

...

1. (0 3 5 1 2 4) might make sense for an engineer because zero for him would

be the first note, but a musician uses to start with one, not zero. If this notation is for expressing some voicings, that is a lot easier and free to read under jazz notation for a human, unless the numbers represents guitar tablatures.

It almost sounds like the machine will help classical musicians or mathemusicians to do like if they were improvising, interesting...

Ah, yes, well I only meant that is the internal representation. The interface would take that input and generate an appropriate output for a given instrument in the correct transposition, so a flute player would see the cell as noteheads on a treble clef.

I'm wondering if I should use something like PyExt to do some of the mapping, as I don't know of any simple way to do hash dictionaries in PD itself. As a test last night, I built a simple abstraction to take notes C C# D etc. and output pitch numbers 0-11, and i found it quite tedius to do compared to a function in code such as (this is in PHP because that is what I do all day long at my day job): function note2number($note) { $num = array ('C'=>0,'C#'=>1,'Db'=>1); return $num[$note]; }

with python it would be very simple as well, AFAIU you would just need to declare a dictionnary and read it through a defined function or a class exactly like you did in php ( http://docs.python.org/tut/node7.html ) , explicitely it's called "Data Structure" in python documentation...

It' possible to use data structure in pure data as well, with using array elements for note names, and a pointer index value for the number. This kind of stuff is a lot easier to do with data structures, I've been able to do things very simply with, while it seemed impossible with list objects, for example a custom [poly] that is able to manage more than two arguments (I could extract and post it if it's necessary) and well it's a big advantage in regard of other dataflow applications...

...

...

4. I imagine that puredata will have to transpose for each instrument, but

if only the key (or key modulation) is given it would be easy to do.

A dictionnary of symbols is so easier to read than numbers for expressing musical events, that's why I've asked if you used font files, but maybe using gem geos or texture files would make it more elegant or versatile?

I'm not sure about fonts, I guess I don't know whether that would work on multiple operating systems... I just thought that GEM would allow it to work on any OS. I agree it might be nice to use already built musical symbols rather than reinventing the wheel. Then I would only need GEM to draw the staff lines and position the noteheads and symbols in relation to it.

~David

Well I think that all the project wouldn't even need externals but Gem will certainly give it a nice look and might have better performances. Also, ttf files would work on any OS if I'm not mistaken, but maybe it would be less complicated with using image files, I've only tried to draw musical score on Gem with [text] objects.

...

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