Hi, I'm trying to install puredata from apt-get, but all I can find is something called puredata-core, which comes from a bunch of externals, and I dont want that. Is there a way to just install pd vanilla with apt-get?
And while we're at it, I see that puredata-core has cyclone, but an old version, how can Iinclude the latest cyclone? I also see that there are libraries that were not part of pd extended in this, so maybe I could include as well my other library (else)? But how?
thanks
I'm obviously confused, let me try again...
I'm using the latest Ubuntu Studio Disco Dingo.
there is just "puredata" but when I try to install it, it says it will also install a bunch of externals. How do I just install vanilla?
Em sáb, 21 de set de 2019 às 03:45, Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
Hi, I'm trying to install puredata from apt-get, but all I can find is something called puredata-core, which comes from a bunch of externals, and I dont want that. Is there a way to just install pd vanilla with apt-get?
And while we're at it, I see that puredata-core has cyclone, but an old version, how can Iinclude the latest cyclone? I also see that there are libraries that were not part of pd extended in this, so maybe I could include as well my other library (else)? But how?
thanks
did you set up your package manager to also install all suggested packages?
$ apt-cache depends puredata puredata Depends: puredata-core Depends: puredata-core Depends: puredata-dev Depends: puredata-dev Depends: puredata-doc Depends: puredata-doc Depends: puredata-extra Depends: puredata-extra Depends: puredata-gui Depends: puredata-gui Depends: puredata-utils Recommends: gem Suggests: pd-aubio Suggests: pd-csound Suggests: pd-pdp Suggests: pd-zexy Suggests: multimedia-puredata
you can also just install puredata-core, which doesn't even depend on puredata-gui, only recommends it.
$ apt-cache depends puredata-core puredata-core Depends: libasound2 Depends: libc6 |Depends: libjack-jackd2-0 Depends: <libjack-0.125> libjack-jackd2-0 libjack0 Depends: libportaudio2 Breaks: puredata Breaks: puredata-doc Breaks: puredata-gui Breaks: puredata-gui Recommends: puredata-gui Replaces: puredata Replaces: puredata-doc
On 21.09.19 08:53, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
I'm obviously confused, let me try again...
I'm using the latest Ubuntu Studio Disco Dingo.
there is just "puredata" but when I try to install it, it says it will also install a bunch of externals. How do I just install vanilla?
Em sáb, 21 de set de 2019 às 03:45, Alexandre Torres Porres <porres@gmail.com mailto:porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
Hi, I'm trying to install puredata from apt-get, but all I can find is something called puredata-core, which comes from a bunch of externals, and I dont want that. Is there a way to just install pd vanilla with apt-get? And while we're at it, I see that puredata-core has cyclone, but an old version, how can Iinclude the latest cyclone? I also see that there are libraries that were not part of pd extended in this, so maybe I could include as well my other library (else)? But how? thanks
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On my Debian System I installed the package pure data.
$ aptitude show puredata
will tell you that "This is a metapackage that depends on all components of the core of Pd". and corresponds to Pd vanilla, but is being broken up into several packages.
Don't tell your apt(itude) to install suggested packages automatically. This is why it wants to install externals which you don't need. It should only install packages that "puredata" depends on. Which these are can be seen with above command for example. None of these include externals apart from the ones included with vanilla. See the documentation of your package manager to diasable the "suggested" packages.
Em sáb, 21 de set de 2019 às 04:17, Max abonnements@revolwear.com escreveu:
did you set up your package manager to also install all suggested packages?
no, I'm just doing apt-get install puredata
you can also just install puredata-core, which doesn't even depend on
puredata-gui, only recommends it.
This one still installs GEM for me, which is fine, I can just delete it, but I'm trying and worried about learning how installing Pd on linux works. Like how you can install just vanilla, and which package comes with what externals and why.
Em sáb, 21 de set de 2019 às 04:25, Peter P. peterparker@fastmail.com escreveu:
On my Debian System I installed the package pure data.
$ aptitude show puredata
will tell you that "This is a metapackage that depends on all components of the core of Pd". and corresponds to Pd vanilla, but is being broken up into several packages.
Don't tell your apt(itude) to install suggested packages automatically. This is why it wants to install externals which you don't need.
hmm, ok, this seems to be it.
It should only install packages that "puredata" depends on. Which these are can be seen with above command for example. None of these include externals apart from the ones included with vanilla. See the documentation of your package manager to diasable the "suggested" packages.
it might be clear that I'm completely clueless on linux and I'm just using it because I want to know how to work with Pd in Linux and test my externals in linux. So, where is this documentation?
thanks
- Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com [2019-09-21 10:09]:
Em sáb, 21 de set de 2019 às 04:25, Peter P. peterparker@fastmail.com escreveu:
On my Debian System I installed the package pure data.
$ aptitude show puredata
will tell you that "This is a metapackage that depends on all components of the core of Pd". and corresponds to Pd vanilla, but is being broken up into several packages.
Don't tell your apt(itude) to install suggested packages automatically. This is why it wants to install externals which you don't need.
hmm, ok, this seems to be it.
apt and aptitude (just another apt frontend) can be configured to install "suggested" packages or not. See these program's documentation on how to do it, eg. by typing "man apt" or "man aptitude".
It should only install packages that "puredata" depends on. Which these are can be seen with above command for example. None of these include externals apart from the ones included with vanilla. See the documentation of your package manager to diasable the "suggested" packages.
it might be clear that I'm completely clueless on linux and I'm just using it because I want to know how to work with Pd in Linux and test my externals in linux. So, where is this documentation?
Have a look at what a package consists of and depends on helps a lot, eg. using the aforementioned "aptitude show" command. Don't be afraid, these package managers are incredible and immensely powerful but also take a bit of experience.
On Sat, 2019-09-21 at 05:07 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
no, I'm just doing apt-get install puredata
This one still installs GEM for me, which is fine, I can just delete it, but I'm trying and worried about learning how installing Pd on linux works. Like how you can install just vanilla, and which package comes with what externals and why.
apt-get install --no-install-recommends --no-install-suggests puredata
On Debian, the default configuration is to install recommended packages, but not suggested ones. On Ubuntu Studio, I don't know what the default is, but it seems that on your box suggested packages are installed, too (which I - personally - find annoying).
To change the default settings, please check here:
https://askubuntu.com/questions/179060/how-to-not-install-recommended-and-su...
Roman
On Sat, 2019-09-21 at 10:46 +0200, Roman Haefeli wrote:
apt-get install --no-install-recommends --no-install-suggests puredata
On Debian, the default configuration is to install recommended packages, but not suggested ones. On Ubuntu Studio, I don't know what the default is, but it seems that on your box suggested packages are installed, too (which I - personally - find annoying).
To change the default settings, please check here:
https://askubuntu.com/questions/179060/how-to-not-install-recommended-and-su...
Sorry, I don't think this link from 2012 is that useful anymore. My apologies.
I put this into /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99norecommends:
APT::Install-Suggests "0"; APT::Install-Recommends "0";
Tested on Debian Buster/Stretch and Ubuntu 18.04.
Roman
On 9/21/19, Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
it might be clear that I'm completely clueless on linux and I'm just using it because I want to know how to work with Pd in Linux and test my externals in linux. So, where is this documentation?
In such case it is probably easier to use Synaptic, a GUI interface to the package manager.
$ sudo apt install synaptic
Synaptic lets you inspect package properties, dependencies etc. through menu items.
Katja
Hello everyone, The latest version of Pd isn’t available on synaptic! Perhaps it is better to start with a new conversation but I thought it could belong to Katjas Mail ! How can I update from Pd 0.48 to 0.50 on OS Ubuntu Studio 18.04 bionic beaver without risk to loose my settings and paths? I couldn’t find a tutorial about this topic! Thank you very much for every suggestion! Cheers Clemens
Gesendet mit der 1&1 Mail App
Am 21.09.19 um 11:16 schrieb katja
On 9/21/19, Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
it might be clear that I'm completely clueless on linux and I'm just using it because I want to know how to work with Pd in Linux and test my externals in linux. So, where is this documentation?
In such case it is probably easier to use Synaptic, a GUI interface to the package manager.
$ sudo apt install synaptic
Synaptic lets you inspect package properties, dependencies etc. through menu items.
Katja
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Am 21. September 2019 11:03:04 MESZ schrieb Roman Haefeli reduzent@gmail.com:
On Sat, 2019-09-21 at 10:46 +0200, Roman Haefeli wrote:
apt-get install --no-install-recommends --no-install-suggests puredata
On Debian, the default configuration is to install recommended packages, but not suggested ones. On Ubuntu Studio, I don't know what the default is, but it seems that on your box suggested packages are installed, too (which I - personally - find annoying).
To change the default settings, please check here:
https://askubuntu.com/questions/179060/how-to-not-install-recommended-and-su...
Sorry, I don't think this link from 2012 is that useful anymore. My apologies.
I put this into /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99norecommends:
APT::Install-Suggests "0";
that is fine.
APT::Install-Recommends "0";
but you shouldn't disable " recommends" by default. doing this will most likely give you a system that lacks all the functionality you expect.
it is *really* meant for experts only!!!
you can of course use '--no-install-recommends' on a case-by-case basis.
mfg.hft.fsl IOhannes
Am 21. September 2019 08:45:38 MESZ schrieb Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com:
And while we're at it, I see that puredata-core has cyclone, but an old version, how can Iinclude the latest cyclone?
Debian (and derivatives) ship "cyclone" for more than a decade. because your fork of cyclone
- breaks functionality (starting with missing "cyclist")
- and the takeover was not very well coordinated
... i have not switched (yet) the Debian packages to your upstream.
i think the biggest issue for me is (still) the uncoordinated takeover. if that is resolved, thr Debian packages might (and i don't see why not) switch
extended in this,
pd-extended is totally unrelated to Debian.
so maybe I could include as well my other library (else)? But how?
*you* will need to find a Debian maintainer to include *anything* in Debian.
luckily, i have filed an itp (intention to package) "else" for Debian a while ago.
i just haven't found the time yet.
mfg.hft.fsl IOhannes
On Sun, 2019-09-22 at 08:59 +0200, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
Am 21. September 2019 11:03:04 MESZ schrieb Roman Haefeli < reduzent@gmail.com>:
I put this into /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99norecommends:
APT::Install-Suggests "0";
that is fine.
APT::Install-Recommends "0";
but you shouldn't disable " recommends" by default.
OK.
doing this will most likely give you a system that lacks all the functionality you expect.
Interesting, *you* say that. 'puredata' recommends 'gem'. I certainly do not expect to get Gem when installing Pure Data. In all cases I remember, I was rather annoyed by stuff that got installed unexpectedly.
But you're probably right, in that - for instance - game graphics are only recommended by the game package, because it technically can run without the image data, but you most likely want to install it as well for the expected experience.
So often, though, it appeared to me that 'recommends' somewhat followed the taste of the maintainer and was not concise.
it is *really* meant for experts only!!!
Ok.
you can of course use '--no-install-recommends' on a case-by-case basis.
You're right. I happen to notice unwanted 'recommends' most often while installing them. But I agree with you anyway.
Roman
On 9/22/19 10:08 PM, Roman Haefeli wrote:
doing this will most likely give you a system that lacks all the functionality you expect.
Interesting,*you* say that. 'puredata' recommends 'gem'. I certainly do not expect to get Gem when installing Pure Data. In all cases I remember, I was rather annoyed by stuff that got installed unexpectedly.
actually the fact that the "puredata" package recommends "gem" predates my involvement in the Debian package and i just never came around to demoting it to a mere "suggests" (which is normally not automatically installed).
if it bothers you, please file a bug against the puredata Debian package.
So often, though, it appeared to me that 'recommends' somewhat followed the taste of the maintainer and was not concise.
The Debian policy is pretty clear about what qualifies as a "Recommends" [1]. However, i think that historically the term was less well defined and was mostly used as what nowadays would be a "Suggests".
gsadmr IOhannes
On 9/22/19 9:10 AM, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
so maybe I could include as well my other library (else)? But how?
*you* will need to find a Debian maintainer to include*anything* in Debian.
luckily, i have filed an itp (intention to package) "else" for Debian a while ago.
i just haven't found the time yet.
so i had a quick look into packaging pd-else.
currently there's two (minor) obstacles:
- The somewhat unclear licensing: please clarify the licenses of all the
files, including those that are taken from other projects [489]. (Debian is super-picky about license issues)
- the stability of the package. quite prominently you say that "this
project is still in a beta stage, this means some changes may occur to some of the objects and backwards compatibility is not guaranteed for future releases until the final stable release is made available." if pd-else keeps breaking patches created with it with every new release, then I'm not sure whether it is fit (yet) for inclusion in Debian. as you have noted, Debian has rather long release cycles (about once every 2 years), and the package that was "in" at the time of a Debian release, will stay "in" for the entire lifetime of that release cycle. If pd-else is released every month, and the package breaks API compatibility (say) every 4 the release, then people will end up with a significantly incompatible package - 6 API changes for the early adaptors compared to those how bet on a "stable" system (remember the recent thread about Pd on the RPi, where somebody was using Debian/stretch - which was released in june 2017). I don't know whether the big fat stability warning is just to stay on the safe side (so you can always say "but i warned you" if things go bonkers), or whether pd-else has *actually* broken API since it's existence.
once these issues are clarified, i intend to proceed.
gfmasrd IOhannes
thanks everyone for all the hints
Em dom, 22 de set de 2019 às 04:10, IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at escreveu:
Am 21. September 2019 08:45:38 MESZ schrieb Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com>:
And while we're at it, I see that puredata-core has cyclone, but an old version, how can Iinclude the latest cyclone?
Debian (and derivatives) ship "cyclone" for more than a decade. because your fork of cyclone
- breaks functionality (starting with missing "cyclist")
- and the takeover was not very well coordinated
... i have not switched (yet) the Debian packages to your upstream.
i think the biggest issue for me is (still) the uncoordinated takeover. if that is resolved, thr Debian packages might (and i don't see why not) switch
great, we can open a new thread to discuss this, but I'm terribly busy now, off to a conference, then for the US where I'll end up in Pd Weekend, then Mexico, then in a month from now I can get back to this :)
include as well my other library (else)? But how?
*you* will need to find a Debian maintainer to include *anything* in Debian.
luckily, i have filed an itp (intention to package) "else" for Debian a while ago.
i just haven't found the time yet.
awesome, thanks, but no worries, I was just wondering how things work. I still consider this project to be in an early stage and maybe when I feel it's time for a stable release, we can do this.
thanks again and cheers
I thought I saw something in the documentation or help files of Pd which was using Gem... So I tried grep -rnw '5.reference/' -e 'gem' which did not find anything. However, while searching that I found that the html documentation was suggesting to install Pd-extended if one wants Gem, so I made a pull request to remove this reference to Pd-extended.
https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/755
On 23.09.19 13:10, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
On 9/22/19 10:08 PM, Roman Haefeli wrote:
doing this will most likely give you a system that lacks all the functionality you expect.
Interesting,*you* say that. 'puredata' recommends 'gem'. I certainly do not expect to get Gem when installing Pure Data. In all cases I remember, I was rather annoyed by stuff that got installed unexpectedly.
actually the fact that the "puredata" package recommends "gem" predates my involvement in the Debian package and i just never came around to demoting it to a mere "suggests" (which is normally not automatically installed).
if it bothers you, please file a bug against the puredata Debian package.
So often, though, it appeared to me that 'recommends' somewhat followed the taste of the maintainer and was not concise.
The Debian policy is pretty clear about what qualifies as a "Recommends" [1]. However, i think that historically the term was less well defined and was mostly used as what nowadays would be a "Suggests".
gsadmr IOhannes
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Em dom., 22 de set. de 2019 às 04:10, IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at escreveu:
Am 21. September 2019 08:45:38 MESZ schrieb Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com>: I see that puredata-core has cyclone, but an old version, how can include the latest cyclone?
Debian (and derivatives) ship "cyclone" for more than a decade. Because your fork of cyclone
- breaks functionality (starting with missing "cyclist")
- and the takeover was not very well coordinated
... i have not switched (yet) the Debian packages to your upstream.
I think the biggest issue for me is (still) the uncoordinated takeover. if that is resolved, the Debian packages might (and i don't see why not) switch
Howdy. Not sure I get the takeover issue and how to solve it or not. I think breakage is more serious but we hope to solve both issues so debian packages can switch.
Regarding breakage, cyclone 0.3's goal wasn't to break stuff. If that happened, it should be reported as a regression bug. As for cyclist, we brought it up in https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2016-10/116633.html - we questioned if anyone ever used and how it wasn't there for the binaries in alpha-57 and 0.2 beta1 (when we forked). It had been removed with [maxmode] and it wasn't our intention to take it out. We asked if and how we should bring it back as we didn't really know how to do it or how it would work, as it was part of [maxmode]. Anyway, the discussion didn't get anywhere and cyclist was kept out as we just didn't know what to do. But we can put it back, no problem. Help is needed though.
As for other known breakages, cyclone 0.4 announced how Capital Letter aliases were removed (for objecs like [MouseState]). The truth is that aliases weren't working for linux in cyclone 0.3 as a bug report informed us. I actually reckon it was a lazy attitude to remove support instead of trying to fix this (we found a rather complicated solution we didn't go for). And since there was a talk in the list how this could be phased out (katja mentioned that and so did cyclone 0.3), I thought we could go for it. Nonetheless, nowadays I also feel like we could take our time and try and fix this in an easy way to avoid breakages, so cyclone 0.5 could bring this back and just leave it there. Other breakage issues like the cyclist one can be solved.
So, bottom line is, we hope to deal with any uncoordinated issue or possible breakages. As for the coordination issue, I'd like to understand what it involves. As for the other issue, please report of other breakage issues if they are and you know of.
For the record, changes we made are in a changelog currently available with cyclone, find it here: https://github.com/porres/pd-cyclone/blob/master/documentation/extra_files/C...
all we did was fix bugs and update objects (plus add new objects and rewrite the documentation). Again, the goal was not to break stuff. Actually, we restored a change that had been made, which I consider a breakage: the non alphanumeric objects were restored into a 'cyclone' library binary as originally.
Cheers
Em ter., 24 de set. de 2019 às 07:17, IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at escreveu:
On 9/22/19 9:10 AM, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
so maybe I could include as well my other library (else)? But how?
*you* will need to find a Debian maintainer to include*anything* in
Debian.
luckily, i have filed an itp (intention to package) "else" for Debian a
while ago.
i just haven't found the time yet.
so i had a quick look into packaging pd-else.
thanks
currently there's two (minor) obstacles:
Yeah, I didn't mean it for now. I'm aware of both obstacles (license / instability). I'm yet to better explicitly sort all licenses (currently they're only in the code of certain objects) when I release a stable release. And when this stable release is out, it means things won't change so much as of right now.
once these issues are clarified, i intend to proceed.
I Hope this might be the case sometime before 2021.
Thanks again.
Em dom., 15 de dez. de 2019 às 22:51, Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
Em dom., 22 de set. de 2019 às 04:10, IOhannes m zmölnig zmoelnig@iem.at escreveu:
Am 21. September 2019 08:45:38 MESZ schrieb Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com>: I see that puredata-core has cyclone, but an old version, how can include the latest cyclone?
Debian (and derivatives) ship "cyclone" for more than a decade. Because your fork of cyclone
- breaks functionality (starting with missing "cyclist")
- and the takeover was not very well coordinated
... i have not switched (yet) the Debian packages to your upstream.
I think the biggest issue for me is (still) the uncoordinated takeover. if that is resolved, the Debian packages might (and i don't see why not) switch
Howdy. Not sure I get the takeover issue and how to solve it or not.
Ok, I guess I get it now and I can see the issue has reached a resolution when we now have the nilwnd fork, correct?
I think breakage is more serious but we hope to solve both issues so debian packages can switch.
Cyclone 0.5-0 is just out and we solved the issue we weren't compiling with Upper Case aliases for Linux. That's the only breakage I was aware, and it's gone. As for cyclist, I already mentioned the actual issue, we didn't take it out and asked how to get it back, and seems impossible without maxmode. Nilwind builds cyclist now but doesn't have maxmode either so it's not usable. Let me stress I can't see any breakage in functionality with nilwind and if there is one, it should be reported and fixed.
Anyway, if the breakage and takeover issues are agreed to be resolved, please consider updating packages eventually. Note that cyclone 0.5 depends on Pd 0.51-0 anyway.
cheers
-
Alexandre Torres Porres -
IOhannes m zmölnig -
katja -
Max -
Peter P. -
reinklang＠online.de -
Roman Haefeli