--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help Patch Authors To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 7:15 PM
On Sep 1, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com
wrote:
From: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help Patch
Authors
To: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@at.or.at Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 5:47 PM
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help Patch
Authors
To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 4:05 PM
On Sep 1, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Jonathan Wilkes
wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner
wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help
Patch
Authors
To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 5:00
AM
It is Pd, so I think we should at
least make
an
effort to
make things easy to parse in Pd.
I tried
your parser
using data that is probably closer to
what
we
might use, and
it didn't work at
all. If someone
can get a
Pd parser working that can handle the
commas
well,
then I
would be OK using commas in the meta
data
format.
Here's my data: tags - pure data, frequency
modulation,
synthesis
Hi Hans, I wouldn't expect my
example
to work as a general solution. If you
want a general solution, I'd be happy to
take a
stab
at it, but you
haven't said what you want Pd to do with
the
data
example you've provided
above.
Ah, sorry, I thought you'd followed the
object_db.tcl
plugin discussion and the [pd META] discussion
with
Frank. Basically, the object_db.tcl
plugin builds a
multilevel menu for finding objects based on
tags.
I'm
am sure people will think of other uses for
the
tags.
Frank suggested using comma separated tags in
his [pd
REFERENCE] format, the PDDP group came to the
conclusion
that the meta data should be easily parsable
by Pd,
and I
still think that's a good idea.
So the idea is to have every help patch have a
[pd
META]
subpatch, and in it, have a comment with
tags.
.hc
Oh, ok. I'll have a look at that
discussion.
-Jonathan
Yes, I have seen this discussion. But I'm still
confused: are commas
a problem in tcl? If not, I still don't
understand the problem (see
attached).
<file.pd><parser.pd>
Tcl's not the problem, its Pd's parser. It interprets commas as a separator between messages. Since there isn't an escape mechanism, it means handling commas, semi-colons, etc. is difficult unless you are wanting the behavior of Pd's parser.
If we use commas as the delimiter for individual tags, then just removing the commas means you don't know if you have multi-word tags or just single word tags. So if you have:
tags - frequency modulation, synth
and its parsed as:
tags frequency modulation synth
then key information is lost.
Ok. (see attached)
-Jonathan
.hc
Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute. - from Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:21 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help Patch Authors To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 7:15 PM
On Sep 1, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com
wrote:
From: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help Patch
Authors
To: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@at.or.at Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 5:47 PM
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help Patch
Authors
To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 4:05 PM
On Sep 1, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Jonathan Wilkes
wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner
wrote:
> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at > Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help
Patch
Authors
> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com > Cc: pd-list@iem.at > Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 5:00
AM
> > It is Pd, so I think we should at
least make
an
effort to
> make things easy to parse in Pd.
I tried
your parser
> using data that is probably closer to
what
we
might use, and
> it didn't work at
all. If someone
can get a
> Pd parser working that can handle the
commas
well,
then I
> would be OK using commas in the meta
data
format.
> > Here's my data: > tags - pure data, frequency
modulation,
synthesis
Hi Hans, I wouldn't expect my
example
to work as a general solution. If you
want a general solution, I'd be happy to
take a
stab
at it, but you
haven't said what you want Pd to do with
the
data
example you've provided
above.
Ah, sorry, I thought you'd followed the
object_db.tcl
plugin discussion and the [pd META] discussion
with
Frank. Basically, the object_db.tcl
plugin builds a
multilevel menu for finding objects based on
tags.
I'm
am sure people will think of other uses for
the
tags.
Frank suggested using comma separated tags in
his [pd
REFERENCE] format, the PDDP group came to the
conclusion
that the meta data should be easily parsable
by Pd,
and I
still think that's a good idea.
So the idea is to have every help patch have a
[pd
META]
subpatch, and in it, have a comment with
tags.
.hc
Oh, ok. I'll have a look at that
discussion.
-Jonathan
Yes, I have seen this discussion. But I'm still
confused: are commas
a problem in tcl? If not, I still don't
understand the problem (see
attached).
<file.pd><parser.pd>
Tcl's not the problem, its Pd's parser. It interprets commas as a separator between messages. Since there isn't an escape mechanism, it means handling commas, semi-colons, etc. is difficult unless you are wanting the behavior of Pd's parser.
If we use commas as the delimiter for individual tags, then just removing the commas means you don't know if you have multi-word tags or just single word tags. So if you have:
tags - frequency modulation, synthand its parsed as:
tags frequency modulation synththen key information is lost.
Ok. (see attached)
Works for me! Frank will be happy. So let's use comma-separated tags
and see what happens...
.hc
-Jonathan
.hc
Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.
- from Structure and Interpretation of Computer
Programs
<file.pd><parser.pd>
Using ReBirth is like trying to play an 808 with a long stick. - David Zicarelli
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help Patch Authors To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 9:21 PM
On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:21 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at
wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help Patch
Authors
To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 7:15 PM
On Sep 1, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Jonathan Wilkes
wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com
wrote:
From: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help
Patch
Authors
To: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@at.or.at Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 5:47 PM
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner
wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help
Patch
Authors
To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 4:05
PM
On Sep 1, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Jonathan
Wilkes
wrote:
> > > --- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph
Steiner
wrote: > >> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner
>> Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META:
Author/Help
Patch
Authors >> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com >> Cc: pd-list@iem.at >> Date: Tuesday, September 1,
2009, 5:00
AM
>> >> It is Pd, so I think we should
at
least make
an
effort to >> make things easy to parse in
Pd.
I tried
your parser >> using data that is probably
closer to
what
we
might use, and >> it didn't work at
all. If someone
can get a >> Pd parser working that can
handle the
commas
well,
then I >> would be OK using commas in
the meta
data
format.
>> >> Here's my data: >> tags - pure data, frequency
modulation,
synthesis
> > Hi Hans, > I
wouldn't expect my
example
to work as a general solution.
If you
> want a general solution, I'd be
happy to
take a
stab
at it, but you > haven't said what you want Pd to
do with
the
data
example you've provided > above.
Ah, sorry, I thought you'd followed
the
object_db.tcl
plugin discussion and the [pd META]
discussion
with
Frank. Basically, the
object_db.tcl
plugin builds a
multilevel menu for finding objects
based on
tags.
I'm
am sure people will think of other
uses for
the
tags.
Frank suggested using comma separated
tags in
his [pd
REFERENCE] format, the PDDP group came
to the
conclusion
that the meta data should be easily
parsable
by Pd,
and I
still think that's a good idea.
So the idea is to have every help
patch have a
[pd
META]
subpatch, and in it, have a comment
with
tags.
.hc
Oh, ok. I'll have a look at that
discussion.
-Jonathan
Yes, I have seen this discussion. But
I'm still
confused: are commas
a problem in tcl? If not, I still don't
understand the problem (see
attached).
<file.pd><parser.pd>
Tcl's not the problem, its Pd's parser. It
interprets
commas as a separator between messages. Since there
isn't an
escape mechanism, it means handling commas, semi-colons, etc. is
difficult
unless you are wanting the behavior of Pd's parser.
If we use commas as the delimiter for individual
tags, then
just removing the commas means you don't know if you
have
multi-word tags or just single word tags. So if you have:
tags - frequency
modulation, synth
and its parsed as:
tags frequency modulation
synth
then key information is lost.
Ok. (see attached)
Works for me! Frank will be happy. So let's use comma-separated tags and see what happens...
So what kinds of tasks do you want Pd to do with these META comments?
If you already have specific ideas in mind (or have written about them
already some place), let me know and I'll try to put together some
patches.
I'm also getting close to the finishing refactoring the help patches
in the reference folder. What should I do with them when I'm finished?
Attach a zip file to the list?
-Jonathan
.hc
-Jonathan
.hc
Programs should be written for people to read, and
only
incidentally for machines to execute. - from Structure and
Interpretation of Computer
Programs
<file.pd><parser.pd>
Using ReBirth is like trying to play an 808 with a long stick. - David Zicarelli
On Sep 1, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help Patch Authors To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 9:21 PM
On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:21 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at
wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help Patch
Authors
To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 7:15 PM
On Sep 1, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Jonathan Wilkes
wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com
wrote:
From: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help
Patch
Authors
To: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@at.or.at Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 5:47 PM
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner
wrote:
> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at > Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help
Patch
Authors
> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com > Cc: pd-list@iem.at > Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 4:05
PM
> > On Sep 1, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Jonathan
Wilkes
wrote:
> >> >> >> --- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph
Steiner
> wrote: >> >>> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner
>>> Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META:
Author/Help
Patch
> Authors >>> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com >>> Cc: pd-list@iem.at >>> Date: Tuesday, September 1,
2009, 5:00
AM
>>> >>> It is Pd, so I think we should
at
least make
an > effort to >>> make things easy to parse in
Pd.
I tried
> your parser >>> using data that is probably
closer to
what
we > might use, and >>> it didn't work at
all. If someone
> can get a >>> Pd parser working that can
handle the
commas
well, > then I >>> would be OK using commas in
the meta
data
format. >>> >>> Here's my data: >>> tags - pure data, frequency
modulation,
synthesis >> >> Hi Hans, >> I
wouldn't expect my
example
> to work as a general solution.
If you
>> want a general solution, I'd be
happy to
take a
stab > at it, but you >> haven't said what you want Pd to
do with
the
data > example you've provided >> above. > > Ah, sorry, I thought you'd followed
the
object_db.tcl
> plugin discussion and the [pd META]
discussion
with
> Frank. Basically, the
object_db.tcl
plugin builds a
> multilevel menu for finding objects
based on
tags.
I'm > am sure people will think of other
uses for
the
tags. > Frank suggested using comma separated
tags in
his [pd
> REFERENCE] format, the PDDP group came
to the
conclusion > that the meta data should be easily
parsable
by Pd,
and I > still think that's a good idea. > > So the idea is to have every help
patch have a
[pd
META] > subpatch, and in it, have a comment
with
tags.
> > .hc
Oh, ok. I'll have a look at that
discussion.
-Jonathan
Yes, I have seen this discussion. But
I'm still
confused: are commas
a problem in tcl? If not, I still don't
understand the problem (see
attached).
<file.pd><parser.pd>
Tcl's not the problem, its Pd's parser. It
interprets
commas as a separator between messages. Since there
isn't an
escape mechanism, it means handling commas, semi-colons, etc. is
difficult
unless you are wanting the behavior of Pd's parser.
If we use commas as the delimiter for individual
tags, then
just removing the commas means you don't know if you
have
multi-word tags or just single word tags. So if you have:
tags - frequencymodulation, synth
and its parsed as:
tags frequency modulationsynth
then key information is lost.
Ok. (see attached)
Works for me! Frank will be happy. So let's use comma-separated tags and see what happens...
So what kinds of tasks do you want Pd to do with these META comments? If you already have specific ideas in mind (or have written about them already some place), let me know and I'll try to put together some patches.
I think they'll be very useful for searching for an object that does
what you want, or organizing the help patches into some kind of
navigatable hierarchy. Perhaps people will think of other uses as well.
I'm also getting close to the finishing refactoring the help patches in the reference folder. What should I do with them when I'm
finished? Attach a zip file to the list?
This sounds great! To start with, try posting some to the list, or
putting the zip on puredata.info and post a link.
.hc
-Jonathan
.hc
-Jonathan
.hc
Programs should be written for people to read, and
only
incidentally for machines to execute.
- from Structure and
Interpretation of Computer
Programs
<file.pd><parser.pd>
Using ReBirth is like trying to play an 808 with a long stick. - David Zicarelli
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during
that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big
Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - General Smedley Butler
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Sep 1, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help Patch Authors To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 9:21 PM
On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:21 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at
wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help Patch
Authors
To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 7:15 PM
On Sep 1, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Jonathan Wilkes
wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com
wrote:
> From: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help
Patch
Authors
> To: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@at.or.at > Cc: pd-list@iem.at > Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 5:47 PM > > > --- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner
> wrote: > >> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at >> Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help
Patch
Authors
>> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com >> Cc: pd-list@iem.at >> Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 4:05
PM
>> >> On Sep 1, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Jonathan
Wilkes
wrote:
>> >>> >>> >>> --- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph
Steiner
>> wrote: >>> >>>> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner
>>>> Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META:
Author/Help
Patch
>> Authors >>>> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com >>>> Cc: pd-list@iem.at >>>> Date: Tuesday, September 1,
2009, 5:00
AM
>>>>
Was it really necessary to quote all of the text above? :)
Ciao
Frank
Is there any place where it's explained what are the meta patches, and
what should be in each patch? I never understood the meaning of them, and
therefore, have never made any.
On Sep 1, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help Patch Authors To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 9:21 PM
On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:21 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
--- On Tue, 9/1/09, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at
wrote:
From: Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@at.or.at Subject: Re: [PD] Pd META: Author/Help Patch
Authors
To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 7:15 PM
On Sep 1, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Jonathan Wilkes
wrote:
Hallo, João Pais hat gesagt: // João Pais wrote:
Is there any place where it's explained what are the meta patches, and
what should be in each patch? I never understood the meaning of them, and therefore, have never made any.
I could find any clear docs about that myself. I can however send you the specification for "pd REFERENCE" supbatches in RjDj help files. Note that this is not dealing with META information like lices, author, etc. Think of it as an alternative implementation of the main pddp help patch area into a parsable format. The RjDj helpfiles can be got here: http://trac.rjdj.me ("Browse source")
Embedding parsable reference info into a subpatch
Each help file includes a subpatch called "REFERENCE" with graph on parent (GOP) enabled. The subpatch's GOP area is 450 px wide. The subpatch contains only comments.
The comments will generally consist of a colon-separated key:value pair. Also allowed are "free" comments that don't use any of the following key names. These will be appended to the "Description" field as separate paragraphs, ordered by the value of their "y"-coordinate. (We can think about adding them to the previously encountered field instead.)
Required key names:
Name: the name of the object Summary: short description of the object Description: Longer description of the object
Optional key names:
Argument <x>: argument x, where x is an integer index of the arg, zero-based. Inlet <x>: message or audio inlet x, where x is an integer index of the inlet, zero-based. Outlet <x>: message or audio outlet x, where x is an integer index of the outlet, zero-based. Tags: dash-separated list of key words (was "comma-separated" before)
Quick awk-oneliner to filter out the subpatch:
$ cat file-help.pd | awk 'BEGIN {RS=";"} /canvas .* REFERENCE/,/restore .* REFERENCE/ { for (i=4; i<=NF; i++) printf("%s ", $i); print ""}' | grep -v REFE | sort
Ciao
Frank
Is there any place where it's explained what are the meta patches, and what should be in each patch? I never understood the meaning of them,
and therefore, have never made any.I could find any clear docs about that myself. I can however send you the
I could try to do it myself as well. but as I suspected that I would find
only an outdated wiki page with some loose information on it, I found it
better to ask who really knows about it.
specification for "pd REFERENCE" supbatches in RjDj help files. Note
that this is not dealing with META information like lices, author, etc. Think of
it as an alternative implementation of the main pddp help patch area into a
parsable format. The RjDj helpfiles can be got here: http://trac.rjdj.me ("Browse
source")
thanks, but that doesn't really answer my question, it just hints at it.
anyway, I downloaded a couple files, and saw no reference subatch. I
downloaded rj_accum-help.pd and rj_senergy~-help.pd, and they were normal
help patches. Which ones did you meant?
And btw, one thing I would do is to download the rjdj library to study. is
there a place where the whole pack of files can be downloaded?
There isn't any explanation, so let's make one. On pd-ext, have a look at the help file for [float], there should be a pd META subpatch there with all tags except the ones I proposed to add: AUTHOR HELP_PATCH_AUTHOR
Most tags are self-explanatory; the only one that isn't is GENRE. I think we should keep it and link it up with the work being done on the "Properties" object-menu. So any object can be part of several GENREs. So the question is, what are the possible categories for GENRE?
The other unresolved issue is whether there can be commas separating the different keywords. Since I'm not sure exactly how the META data will be used, I guess we should keep it as simple as possible and not have commas for now.
But then what to do about multiple help patch authors?
-Jonathan
--- On Fri, 9/4/09, João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com wrote:
From: João Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com Subject: Re: [PD] [pd REFERENCE] format [was: Re: Pd META: Author/Help Patch Authors] To: "Frank Barknecht" fbar@footils.org, pd-list@iem.at Date: Friday, September 4, 2009, 2:05 PM
Is there any place where
it's explained what are the meta patches, and
what should be in each patch? I never understood
the meaning of them, and
therefore, have never made any.
I could find any clear docs about that myself. I can
however send you the
I could try to do it myself as well. but as I suspected that I would find only an outdated wiki page with some loose information on it, I found it better to ask who really knows about it.
specification for "pd REFERENCE" supbatches in RjDj
help files. Note that this
is not dealing with META information like lices,
author, etc. Think of it as an
alternative implementation of the main pddp help patch
area into a parsable
format. The RjDj helpfiles can be got here: http://trac.rjdj.me ("Browse source")
thanks, but that doesn't really answer my question, it just hints at it.
anyway, I downloaded a couple files, and saw no reference subatch. I downloaded rj_accum-help.pd and rj_senergy~-help.pd, and they were normal help patches. Which ones did you meant?
And btw, one thing I would do is to download the rjdj library to study. is there a place where the whole pack of files can be downloaded?
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
But then what to do about multiple help patch authors?
I don't know, but if a template doesn't allow to say something complex like «Pierre wrote the reference section, Jean wrote the theoretical background section, Jacques provided the examples» then that template should be just shot dead.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
--- On Sat, 9/5/09, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
From: Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca Subject: Re: [PD] [pd REFERENCE] format [was: Re: Pd META: Author/Help Patch Authors] To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "Frank Barknecht" fbar@footils.org, pd-list@iem.at, "João Pais" jmmmpais@googlemail.com Date: Saturday, September 5, 2009, 8:59 PM On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
But then what to do about multiple help patch
authors?
I don't know, but if a template doesn't allow to say something complex like «Pierre wrote the reference section, Jean wrote the theoretical background section, Jacques provided the examples» then that template should be just shot dead.
You have included commas in your example. But I thought you were arguing that commas will cause problems down the line.
-Jonathan
_____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
--- On Sat, 9/5/09, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
I don't know, but if a template doesn't allow to say something complex like «Pierre wrote the reference section, Jean wrote the theoretical background section, Jacques provided the examples» then that template should be just shot dead.
You have included commas in your example. But I thought you were arguing that commas will cause problems down the line.
If you are making a tag system and are going to search by full tagnames, than each tag has better be a single symbol and each request better not contain commas. But there are things for which you'd search by text content, and people are using commas all over english text, so naturally, if the author field needs to be in plain english, it will need to be searched like plain english is to be searched.
I'm supposing that a tag system is something in which a tag is atomic (you don't search for substrings of tags when you search by tag) and in which tags are considered more special than the rest of the text, because else why bother calling it a tag system and why bother making it any different from a plain text search. furthermore, i suppose that there is an aim of semantic unambiguïty, that is, there is some kind of standard on tags such that either "fm" or "frequency_modulation" is used but not both because all synonymous words for 1 thing are represented by 1 tag.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
--- On Sat, 9/5/09, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
From: Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca Subject: Re: [PD] [pd REFERENCE] format [was: Re: Pd META: Author/Help Patch Authors] To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "Frank Barknecht" fbar@footils.org, pd-list@iem.at, "João Pais" jmmmpais@googlemail.com Date: Saturday, September 5, 2009, 11:39 PM On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
--- On Sat, 9/5/09, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca
wrote:
I don't know, but if a template doesn't allow to
say
something complex like «Pierre wrote the
reference section,
Jean wrote the theoretical background section,
Jacques
provided the examples» then that template should
be just
shot dead.
You have included commas in your example. But I
thought you were
arguing that commas will cause problems down the
line.
If you are making a tag system and are going to search by full tagnames, than each tag has better be a single symbol and each request better not contain commas. But there are things for which you'd search by text content, and people are using commas all over english text, so naturally, if the author field needs to be in plain english, it will need to be searched like plain english is to be searched.
I assume your talking about the HELP_PATCH_AUTHOR field, and not AUTHOR. (But maybe there are better names for these.)
I'm supposing that a tag system is something in which a tag is atomic (you don't search for substrings of tags when you search by tag) and in which tags are considered more special than the rest of the text, because else why bother calling it a tag system and why bother making it any different from a plain text search. furthermore, i suppose that there is an aim of semantic unambiguïty, that is, there is some kind of standard on tags such that either "fm" or "frequency_modulation" is used but not both because all synonymous words for 1 thing are represented by 1 tag.
I don't understand your last point, as far as parsing in Pd is concerned. If you have the tag "frequency_modulation," how is it that the user can search for "fm" and get appropriate results?
-Jonathan
_____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
I assume your talking about the HELP_PATCH_AUTHOR field, and not AUTHOR. (But maybe there are better names for these.)
Yes, I confused the two with my example, but let's say that the authorship of one object-class is "Johannes wrote the original version, Martin added a TCP transport module" or "Paquette wrote the whole abstraction, but we'd like to thank the XYZ institute for encumbering it with a patent". There are numerous things that one may want to put in an AUTHOR field in the real world. It's not like a university lab, where you just have to write the name of your advisor in that field and not think twice (except if you are unlucky enough to have several advisors at once).
I don't understand your last point, as far as parsing in Pd is concerned. If you have the tag "frequency_modulation," how is it that the user can search for "fm" and get appropriate results?
They can't. Why should they?
What's a tag?
Tell me what's a tag and what's the point of having tags.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
--- On Sun, 9/6/09, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
From: Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca Subject: Re: [PD] [pd REFERENCE] format [was: Re: Pd META: Author/Help Patch Authors] To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "Frank Barknecht" fbar@footils.org, pd-list@iem.at, "João Pais" jmmmpais@googlemail.com Date: Sunday, September 6, 2009, 1:34 AM On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
I assume your talking about the HELP_PATCH_AUTHOR
field, and not
AUTHOR. (But maybe there are better names for
these.)
Yes, I confused the two with my example, but let's say that the authorship of one object-class is "Johannes wrote the original version, Martin added a TCP transport module" or "Paquette wrote the whole abstraction, but we'd like to thank the XYZ institute for encumbering it with a patent". There are numerous things that one may want to put in an AUTHOR field in the real world. It's not like a university lab, where you just have to write the name of your advisor in that field and not think twice (except if you are unlucky enough to have several advisors at once).
I don't understand your last point, as far as parsing
in Pd is concerned. If you have the tag "frequency_modulation," how is it that the user can search for "fm" and get appropriate results?
They can't. Why should they?
I've been assuming that one of the aims of tags (i.e., keywords) is that
there would be a search window in the browser so you can search for
relevant help patches/tutorial patches/ etc. Or maybe an actual patch,
since Hans has said that the keywords should be "parsable in pd."
There are already some categories from which simple, standard keywords
may be used, but for some terms like "frequency modulation" there's the
aforementioned problem of the space between the words. Given that,
frequency_modulation is certainly one solution, and users can get
used to using underscores when searching, but why not also include "fm"
and "modulation" in case the user happens to type that (which would be
completely reasonable)?
What's a tag?
A keyword.
Tell me what's a tag and what's the point of having tags.
I saw your nick in the irc discussion of the PDDP, didn't you actually take part in some of these decisions? Anyhow, here's a link to the specification:
http://puredata.info/dev/pddp/SpecificationForHelpPatchSearching
_____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
I've been assuming that one of the aims of tags (i.e., keywords) is that there would be a search window in the browser so you can search for relevant help patches/tutorial patches/ etc. Or maybe an actual patch, since Hans has said that the keywords should be "parsable in pd."
There are already some categories from which simple, standard keywords may be used, but for some terms like "frequency modulation" there's the aforementioned problem of the space between the words. Given that, frequency_modulation is certainly one solution, and users can get used to using underscores when searching, but why not also include "fm" and "modulation" in case the user happens to type that (which would be completely reasonable)
As I see it a tag like "fm" would be associated with synonyms like "frequency modulation", "frequency_modulation", "Frequency Modulation" "modulation de frequence", "DX7 synthesis" that could be added to it at any later date, so a search for any of the synonyms would ultimately return whatever was connected to the tag.
Martin
On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, Martin Peach wrote:
As I see it a tag like "fm" would be associated with synonyms like "frequency modulation", "frequency_modulation", "Frequency Modulation" "modulation de frequence", "DX7 synthesis" that could be added to it at any later date, so a search for any of the synonyms would ultimately return whatever was connected to the tag.
Yeah, either considering a tag to have several names (hardlinks), or a tag to have a real name and several aliases (symlinks), or something like that. This is good when there is no central authority that gathers all tags together before they begin to be used, or when even the central authority is not sufficient anymore because people can't figure out synonyms at the right time (too many tags, insufficient search engine, etc).
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
--- On Sat, 9/5/09, Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
From: Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca Subject: Re: [PD] [pd REFERENCE] format [was: Re: Pd META: Author/Help Patch Authors] To: "Jonathan Wilkes" jancsika@yahoo.com Cc: "Frank Barknecht" fbar@footils.org, pd-list@iem.at, "João Pais" jmmmpais@googlemail.com Date: Saturday, September 5, 2009, 8:59 PM On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
But then what to do about multiple help patch
authors?
I don't know, but if a template doesn't allow to say something complex like «Pierre wrote the reference section, Jean wrote the theoretical background section, Jacques provided the examples» then that template should be just shot dead.
You have included commas in your example. But I thought you were arguing that commas will cause problems down the line.
-Jonathan
_____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801
Hallo, João Pais hat gesagt: // João Pais wrote:
anyway, I downloaded a couple files, and saw no reference subatch. I
downloaded rj_accum-help.pd and rj_senergy~-help.pd, and they were normal help patches. Which ones did you meant?
I was talking about the "rj" library of abstractions, which you can get here: http://trac.rjdj.me/browser/trunk/rjlib/rj
or:
svn co http://svn.rjdj.me/scenes/trunk/rjlib/
I'm currenty converting the help files in alphabetical order, so things like a_onset, e_alias or e_bitcrusher are already in the new format.
And btw, one thing I would do is to download the rjdj library to study. is there a place where the whole pack of files can be downloaded?
For that just grab the RjDj Composer pack: http://trac.rjdj.me/wiki/ComposersPack
Ciao
Frank
-
Frank Barknecht -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Jonathan Wilkes -
João Pais -
Martin Peach -
Mathieu Bouchard