On 07.11.18 13:40, Peter P. wrote:

• IOhannes m zmoelnig zmoelnig@iem.at [2018-11-07 13:28]:

...

On 06.11.18 13:15, Peter P. wrote:

...

Hi list,

looking at a german translation of Pd right now I am wondering if it makes sense to translate technical terms such as object, message, into their german-dictionary-counterparts. I find it counter-intuitive to be using, like most others, the english words object and messag in german but having these a bit awkward translations in the pulldown menus.

Does anyone else have an oppinion on this? Thanks!

i feel your pain.

i mostly use Pd in English (LANG=C pd) to ease it.

Which is great but hard for beginners to do on proprietary operating systems.

well, Pd supports the "LANG" setting on all OSs. on windows you should be able to set a global environment variable ("System->Settings->foo->bar"). i don't know how to do that on mac.

an alternative is simply to navigate to the Pd-directory, change into the "po/" directory and remove/rename the offending translation file(s) (e.g. "de.msg"). after restarting Pd, the (german) translations should be gone.

Just today I discovered that even "array" and "graph" are translated to something very confusing and unnecessary german, which is never used anywhere is Pd's docs or help patches and is hence totally out of context. How would one edit the german internationalization of Pd in its sources?

Into how many languages was Pd's GUI translated? Is anyone happy with these transations?

$ cd pd/po
$ ls *.po
$ ls *.po
af.po  bg.po  en_ca.po  fr.po  hi.po  pa.po     sq.po
az.po  de.po  es.po     gu.po  hu.po  pt_br.po  sv.po
be.po  el.po  eu.po     he.po  it.po  pt_pt.po  vi.po

which makes 21 translations (including variants like Canadian English and Brazilian Portuguese).

iirc, pt_br and fr are quite well maintained, de and es are ok; the rest is solala and might not have been updated since the Pd-extended days.

i remember having updated the german translations of "array" and "graph", because i couldn't remember what the original translations were supposed to mean - everytime i stumbled over them. i guess that these days, i have touched most of the german translations. but given my unease with l10n, there is certainly room for improvements. so help is welcome.

# how to help? the problem is mainly, that the translations need to be "compiled" before they can be used. so it's not as simple as telling your students to edit file x and be happy with a new translation.

so the way of the samurai is:

• get the Pd sources and the tools to compile it
  • also get GNU gettext (so you can build the translation files)
• get a PO-editor, e.g. "poedit"
• use poedit to open the translation you want to change e.g. poedit po/de.po
• fix all the offending translations
• save and exit poedit
• run "make locales"
  • this will build the required .msg-files from the .po-files
• restart Pd and check whether everything works :-)
• submit a PR on github

you can also distribute the updated .msg file(s) to your students, which they need to throw into the po/ directory and restart to see an effect.

and don't forget submitting a pull request.

fgmasdr IOhannes

On 11/7/18 2:11 PM, Antoine Rousseau wrote:

Maybe a preference switch could be added to manually restore the original English version?

i was thinking of adding a preference to manually select the language.

gfmsadr IOhannes

On 08.11.18 15:08, Winfried Ritsch wrote:

The Rest is quite fine, except: "Zusätzliche Objekte im Internet finden", since "Finde Externals" is more correct.

actually i think that "objekte im internet finden" (find objects in the internet) is more correct than "find externals".

• "externals" often refers to *compiled* objects, but deken installs

both abstractions and compiled stuff.

• these days, deken searches for libraries *and* objects
• mentioning the "internet" is good, as it makes clear that this

operations requires you to be *online* (apart from the technical aspect there is also a privacy aspect to this)

otoh, "external" is fuzzy enough to mean both objects not built into Pd (abstractions, binary blobs,...) and entire libraries, so probably "Zusätzliche Externals im Internet finden" is a good compromise.

fgmasdr IOhannes

PS: patches welcome

On 08.11.18 15:42, Max wrote:

...

Also Radioknopf is wrong, since "Radioschalter"  but "Radiobutton" is     anyway german ( https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Radiobutton )

Very interesting, TIL. I would suggest "Optionsknopf, Auswahlschalter" or something similar. The original Radiobutton where you select the band FM / SW / LW (UKW / KW / LW) is only known to people who had such Radio and this reference is dying out. (At least for German, I don't know this is for English speakers)

none of them ring with me. both "knopf" and "schalter" evoke quite specific images in my head, none of which match with what you actually get (and "radiobutton" does neither)

...

Very bad is "Feld" for array and "arbeitsfläche" for canvas, since    array is a data type and Arbeitsfläche means Desktop normally

Array: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feld_(Datentyp)

i don't think this helps. while the word "Feld" for the datatype might exist, i don't think it has any practical relevance. as wikipedia puts it (quoting a tutorial on C): „Der englische und gängigere Begriff für Feld ist Array“.

Is Leinwand better for Canvas?

no. it's just wrong, just like "Sackleinen", "Ringboden" and "Stramin" (wtf?). dict.cc also lists "Kanevas" (which would be a nice weirdo word that's closely related to english original) or (surprise) "Canvas" as possible translations of "canvas".

fgksdr )=uajjes

On 09.11.18 01:16, Simon Iten wrote:

...

On 8 Nov 2018, at 15:58, IOhannes m zmoelnig <zmoelnig@iem.at mailto:zmoelnig@iem.at> wrote:

none of them ring with me. both "knopf" and "schalter" evoke quite specific images in my head, none of which match with what you actually get (and “radiobutton" does neither)

Selektor?

I like

again, what's wrong with Radiobutton? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiobutton

IMHO, trying to "translate" well understood technical terms (Radiobutton, Slider, VU-Meter, Messagebox, Array, Canvas etc.) has a high chance of causing confusion instead of being helpful.

translating doesn't mean getting rid of every single trace of the original language.

anyway, I think we all seem to agree that the current German translation is more confusing than helpful :-)

Christof

PS: if we want to be *really* German I would opt for "Mehrfachoptionsfeld" :-p

Gesendet: Freitag, 09. November 2018 um 13:18 Uhr Von: "Roman Haefeli" reduzent@gmail.com An: pd-list@lists.iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

On Fri, 2018-11-09 at 12:09 +0100, Max wrote:

...

On 09.11.18 01:16, Simon Iten wrote:

...

...

On 8 Nov 2018, at 15:58, IOhannes m zmoelnig <zmoelnig@iem.at mailto:zmoelnig@iem.at> wrote:

none of them ring with me. both "knopf" and "schalter" evoke quite specific images in my head, none of which match with what you actually get (and “radiobutton" does neither)

Selektor?

I like

-1

It collides with the English 'selector' which has a particular meaning in Pd.

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On 09.11.18 17:12, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

A solution to avoid confusion with keywords would be to add in brackets the original English word for these vital technical terms. Helpful would be then the body of the text in German to those native German language speakers who do not understand the instructions etc in English which I thought is the purpose of the task.

that seems like a sensible idea to me.

On 09-Nov-18 14:05, Christof Ressi wrote:

...

PS: if we want to be *really* German I would opt for "Mehrfachoptionsfeld" :-p

I think that's exactly what a radiobutton is not - the special thing about a radiobutton is that it doesn't allow eine Mehrfachauswahl. Einfachauswahlfeld would probably match better. :-p

On 11/9/18 4:59 PM, Max wrote:

I just checked the de.po file and actually the German translation in there is "Kurve" for Array and "Feld" for graph. (Not Feld for Array).

yes. this was my first edit to the translation.

before it was the other way around, and i *absolutely never* had an idea what was meant:

i selected "Kurve" and got a large rectangle (reminding me of a "field") i selected "Feld" and it would add a line (aka "straight curve") into the previously created rectangle. urgh.

since i changed it, i have to think *a lot less* what is actually meant.

a translation into my mother tongue should reduce my cognitive load, not overdrive it.

gfmadsr IOhannes

I appreciate this lively discussion, and want to state I am not a linguist, even my german is not mainstream, some strange austrian dialekt... so my thoughts:

• We do not need the translation to be an exact description of something, but

it should not confuse and missunderstandable.

• For me "Puredata" is a computer(music) language and "pd" is an editor for

this. in teaching it (language) terms which relates to a kind of syntax does not need to be translated, like "message", "bang", ...

• menus are for structuring the user interface not so much an explanation of

something. Power users mostly don't use them, the use short-cuts, but if I want to show someone what I do I use the menu so it can be tracked...

• On a first usage (of menus) I need some time to find anything, but afterwards

I only need the words as a hint, so I prefer a small description. So I do not want to read long stories in menus, but identify the entry within a glimpse and remember it easily.

With this in mind and following the discussion my corrected preferences:

"File" := "Datei"
since used in other applications too

"message..." := "Message..." instead of "Pd-Nachricht senden"

using message... is something where I have to know what I do, so "message..." is a nice hint I can remember easily and three dots triggers the imagination what you can do with it :-).

Preferences := "Einstellungen"
instead of "Voreinstellungen"

   since  "Voreinstellungen" means default

Preferences ->Startup := Einstellungen->Bibliotheken... since, like IOhannes said, its mostly about these

Preferences ->MIDI.. := Einstellungen->MIDI... instead of "Einstellungen->MIDI Einstellungen" since Einstellungen is in the parent menu

"put" := "Einfügen"

I suggest not "translate" anything under this menu, since this are kind of terms of the syntax Puredata , so use this words or nearly this words when edit a Pd-File with an texteditor or do dynamic patching, but if there is a translation, mybe for the graphical objects second half, my remarks:

Radiobutton := Auswahl horizontal , Auswahl vertikal Auswahl explains the function and vertical horizontal implies a graphic object

graph := Graph since is also german but refer also to graph theory which is a "patch" but intuitively we can used it also for the area of drawing something and

array := Array
  an array is an array in german, another german word would be
  "Zahlenreihe" or "Datenfeld", but both is not in common use.

Edit -> Paste replace := Bearbeiten -> Ersetzen instead of "Objekte ersetzen"

   I think "Ersetzen" is enough" although in english objects are not 
   mentioned. I don't see "Ersetzen" is something other than 
   "Paste Replace" it is not "Find and replace" but Replace
  since you also replace messages not only objects.

Find -> find again := "erneut finden" instead of "Finde nochmal" because we do not want to find "nochmal"

Help->Find Externals := "Finde Bibliotheken online" instead of "Zusätzliche Objekte im Internet finden",

since "Finde Externals" is also wrong, like IOhannes stated,  we do not 

find objects or external in the internet like in a patch or file system, but libraries of pd- abstractions as objects or compiled objects and more... and online is as much "german" as "handy" for mobiles and nowadays only associated with the internet, (not so for a future menu in the "darknet...") ;-)

Hope I could help a little within this discussion and we find a consens, but can live with other solutions also.

mfg winfried

Am Freitag, 9. November 2018, 17:27:52 CET schrieb Max:

On 09.11.18 17:10, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:

...

On 11/9/18 4:59 PM, Max wrote:

...

I just checked the de.po file and actually the German translation in there is "Kurve" for Array and "Feld" for graph. (Not Feld for Array).

yes. this was my first edit to the translation.

before it was the other way around, and i *absolutely never* had an idea what was meant:

i selected "Kurve" and got a large rectangle (reminding me of a "field") i selected "Feld" and it would add a line (aka "straight curve") into the previously created rectangle. urgh.

since i changed it, i have to think *a lot less* what is actually meant.

a translation into my mother tongue should reduce my cognitive load, not overdrive it.

Fine, what's Winfrieds opinion about it?

I created a pull request for some of the strings where I thought was somewhat of a consensus here:

https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/521

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On 12.11.18 22:58, Christof Ressi wrote:

sounds good! do you mind setting up a branch with your translations?

ideally basing it on max's PR [521], to avoid divergence.

fbmsdr IOhannes

[521] https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/521

On 08.11.18 15:08, Winfried Ritsch wrote:

File message... : "Pd-Nachricht senden" is missleading, Pd-Nachricht is not a term which could be found anywhere, better "Message senden..."

+1

Preferences -> Startup: Voreinstellungen->Bibliotheken & Startprozess It is to long, even not the same than in english I would translate "Startoptionen"

i like "Bibliotheken & Startoptionen". i wouldn't drop the "Bibliotheken", as this preference window is really mostly about libraries and only a little bit about "startup" flags (i think the english version is too terse). also, i don't have any problems with the length of the string (but i'm not using it on a 800x600 display)

Edit -> Paste replace: Bearbeiten -> Objekte ersetzen I think "Ersetzen" is enough" although in english objects are not mentioned

the "paste replace" is somewhat different from an ordinary "replace" (e.g. as found in your favourite text editor). that's why i chose a somewhat non-standard term (in both languages). i agree that the german translation is sub-optimal and doesn't catch the oddness of "paste replace", but a simple "Ersetzen" is probably worse asd it raises different expectations.

Find -> find again : "Finde nochmal" better "erneut finden", because we do not want to find "nochmal"

+1

Put -> ... I would take the english names, since they are names of functions and not some action advice: "Object" "message" "number" "symbol" "comment", ...

mostly +1. "comment" could probably stay as "Kommentar" (but then it might stand out as the only non-translated widget)

Also Radioknopf is wrong, since "Radioschalter" but "Radiobutton" is anyway german ( https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Radiobutton )

certainly better than "Radioknopf"

Very bad is "Feld" for array and "arbeitsfläche" for canvas, since array is a data type

"Feld" is the translation for "graph", not for "array". "Graph" is german word as well...

and Arbeitsfläche means Desktop normally

+1

media -> Medien: wrong since Medien in german means "media content" and we switch DSP on/of there tests and settings, so I think its not even media in english, more like "System" or Interfaces

these only catch the hardware aspect, but there's more than that under this menu...

fgmasr IOhannes

everything that is in the "Put" menu should be uniform across all languages and match the terminology in the help patches.

+1

Gesendet: Samstag, 10. November 2018 um 01:34 Uhr Von: "Peter P." peterparker@fastmail.com An: pd-list@lists.iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

Hi all,

I had started this thread because of the terrible situation where you are teaching Pd to people, who have different language settings. It artificially confuses everyone involved without any gain. Everything that is in the "Put" menu should be uniform across all languages and match the terminology in the help patches. The same applies for other terms such as "patch" etc.

This is really important and reduces the cognitive load of people new to Pd and learning it.

best, P

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i think the fundamental question is:

do you translate terms that are part of the pd-lingo? (and yes i know that word or any other commercial software does this)

i am not sure the learning curve for an english speaking person is that much faster if he does not have to learn the 5 english terms that are most commonly used in the put menu. some of them are also not obvious in english. point being, if you learn a “programming” language, you have to learn new terms anyway, not sure it really matters what words those are.

additionally, if you ever use the internet to look up how something could be patched or search for examples, all the terms and explanations will be in english… so maybe better to just learn it like this from the beginning.

On 10 Nov 2018, at 15:55, Max abonnements@revolwear.com wrote:

I disagree. Translations are made for people who aren't already polyglot. As Winfried said, let's strive to make the translations better. The suggestion Jurgen Frenz made is sensible though: translating it and put the original name in brackets.

On 10.11.18 01:34, Peter P. wrote:

...

Hi all, I had started this thread because of the terrible situation where you are teaching Pd to people, who have different language settings. It artificially confuses everyone involved without any gain. Everything that is in the "Put" menu should be uniform across all languages and match the terminology in the help patches. The same applies for other terms such as "patch" etc. This is really important and reduces the cognitive load of people new to Pd and learning it. best, P _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

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meaning (= translation)

reading the translations "Schieberegler" or "Arbeitsfläche" doesn't tell a new user anything about the meaning. they might get a vague idea but the full "meaning" of those terms only emerges when they create the corresponding object and interact with it. then they can associate the object with the corresponding word in the menu. which word you use, however, is more or less arbitrary ("Hslider", "Vslider", "Hradio" and "Vradio" aren't even real English words). now wouldn't it be nice if everybody would use the same words for those things which are specific to Pd?

I agree that this approach doesn't work so well with languages which don't have the same writings system (like English and Chinese) but I can't imagine that those German translations in the Put menu are of any use to a German Pd user. Seriously, how is something like "Vertikaler Schieberegler" any better than "Vslider"?

but maybe I should stop complaining now and simply continue with my practice of immediately deleting the "po" folder in my Pd installations :-)

Christof

Gesendet: Samstag, 10. November 2018 um 18:43 Uhr Von: "Jurgen Frenz" noise.now@gmail.com An: pd-list@lists.iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] German translation of Pd

Allow me to insist on my bracket [in Klammern] suggestion - the fact that the menus AND help patches are not localised in any other language than English makes it vital to have both a rendering of the meaning (= translation) and a reference to the original keyword. I have been teaching Pd in China and Malaysia and I am fully aware of the extreme value of a translation of the text body.

Best Jürgen

On 10-Nov-18 15:55, Max wrote:

...

I disagree. Translations are made for people who aren't already polyglot. As Winfried said, let's strive to make the translations better. The suggestion Jurgen Frenz made is sensible though: translating it and put the original name in brackets.

On 10.11.18 01:34, Peter P. wrote:

...

Hi all,

I had started this thread because of the terrible situation where you are teaching Pd to people, who have different language settings. It artificially confuses everyone involved without any gain. Everything that is in the "Put" menu should be uniform across all languages and match the terminology in the help patches. The same applies for other terms such as "patch" etc.

This is really important and reduces the cognitive load of people new to Pd and learning it.

best, P

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Christof Ressi wrote:

...

meaning (= translation)

reading the translations "Schieberegler" or "Arbeitsfläche" doesn't tell a new user anything about the meaning. they might get a vague idea but the full "meaning" of those terms only emerges when they create the corresponding object and interact with it.

i completely agree with christof in this regard.

imagine any possible german translation for a simple yet extensive thing like "message":

Botschaft, Nachricht, Mitteilung ...

All of them (while technically "correct") would completely miss the point of what a "message" in PD is and what it does (i.e. as opposed to an audio signal, etc. ...)

and how would you translate "bang" ? Peng, Bumm, Knall ? ;-)

unless the concept behind "bang" (meaning "do it" or "do it again") is explained and understood, you can't make any use of it.

don't even start to think about translating more obscure name concepts like "patch" into german ...

(i know how long it took me to accept this term, that was otherwise used for cracking or repairing software ;-)

i too would leave PD-"specific" terms untouched in any translations, even if they seem translatable or simple.

my 2c

best

oliver

hi,

the InitOnceExecuteOnce function is not available on Windows XP (see https://docs.microsoft.com/de-de/windows/desktop/api/synchapi/nf-synchapi-in...). I don't know why/where it gets called, it doesn't appear in the source of iemlib and Pd. I would suggest you try to compile it from source on your XP machine.

Christof

Gesendet: Sonntag, 11. November 2018 um 21:55 Uhr Von: oliver oliver@klingt.org An: "pd-list@mail.iem.at" pd-list@mail.iem.at Betreff: [PD] new iemlib error on XP

hi,

i just recently discovered that on a Windows XP system (i know ...) the new iemlib (v1.21) doesn't load anymore but gives this error:

"The procedure entry point InitOnceExecuteOnce could not be located in the dynamic link library KERNEL32.dll"

PD 0.48 and PD 0.49, WinXP, SP2

best

oliver

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On 11.11.18 21:55, oliver wrote:

hi,

i just recently discovered that on a Windows XP system (i know ...) the new iemlib (v1.21) doesn't load anymore but gives this error:

"The procedure entry point InitOnceExecuteOnce could not be located in the dynamic link library KERNEL32.dll"

PD 0.48 and PD 0.49, WinXP, SP2

so i tested on a virtual machine (one of the official VMs provided by MS, running "Microsoft Windows XP Professional, Version 2002, Service Pack 3"), and here's my findings:

• the GUI wouldn't start for any Pd after 0.42 (but i only tested the

last bugfix release of each Pd-version), the wish*.exe simply refusing to run (calling wish85.exe explicitely would yield something like "The system cannot execute the specified program"). i guess you don't have this problem...

• luckily, Pd would start without GUI
• downloading the latest iemlib[v1.21] for Windows via deken (obviously

on a different machine were the GUI works), and and starting Pd with "pd.com -nogui -lib ...\iemlib\iemlib" resulted in the printout of:

iemlib (1.21) library loaded! (c) Thomas Musil Oct 25 2018 : 22:09:06 musil@iem.at iem KUG Graz Austria

so i conclude that while there are certainly problems with getting a modern Pd to run on XP, iemlib seems to work (at least: load) nicely.

fgmasdr IOhannes

PS: please do not hijack threads (the iemlib error seems to be quite unrelated to "German translation of Pd")

dear, IOhannes, christof !

thank you very much for your kind help !

IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:

in my test, i tried the 2018-10-31 upload, and this works nicely on XP. i now tried the 2018-06-29 upload, and this fails for me as well.

so to conclude: get the latest iemlib-v1.21 (i will talk to thomas about properly incrementing the version)

i can confirm, that this is indeed the solution !

thanks for your investigation ! happy again !

best

oliver