Now that the Lille2004 work is finally winding down, I have time to
release this:
This collection of Pd patches allows multiple users to edit a shared
patch at
the same time over a network. This allows Pd users to practice
'extreme programming'
(aka 'XP') in realtime over the internet. XP is the practice of 2 or
more
programmers working on the same code at the same time collaboratively.
Currently, its very rudimentary, but I plan on flushing it out into a complete XP environment.
This patch needs objects from a couple Pd external libs:
- [netclient], [netserver] from Olaf Matthes' maxlib
- [list2symbol], [niagara] from IOhannes Zmoelnig's zexy
- [shell] from guenter geiger's ggee
- [tot] from Kzrysztof Czaja's toxy
- [prepend] from Kzrysztof Czaja's cyclone ([prepend] from iemlib2
does
not work for this because it lacks a [set( message)
As of maxlib v1.5, [netclient] is buggy, so you'll need the included
fixed
version to really use xp4pd.
.hc
Using ReBirth is like trying to play an 808 with a long stick. -David Zicarelli
I read:
This collection of Pd patches allows multiple users to edit a shared
patch at the same time over a network. This allows Pd users to practice
thanks a lot hans, this is absolutely great!
take care,
x
On Monday, Dec 15, 2003, at 22:04 Europe/Brussels, CK wrote:
I read:
This collection of Pd patches allows multiple users to edit a shared patch at the same time over a network. This allows Pd users to practice
thanks a lot hans, this is absolutely great!
take care,
For the next phase, I want to add state to the shared_patch so that I
can keep a xp4pd_server running available to everyone and anyone can
attach to it and see and edit the common patch. It would then be like
a Pd wiki.
I have to give props to Kzrysztof Czaja for toxy. His [tot] made this
quite simple. For anyone who wants to port Pd to something other than
Tcl/Tk, I suggest you try toxy. It opens whole new realms of what Pd
can do. Then there is all the other Pd contributors, but I have to
stop somewhere otherwise this email will never end.
.hc
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are
deliberately throwing it away
to benefit those who profit from scarcity."
-John Gilmore
Wow. This would be extremely cool. I really should get the Teleo stuff ported to PD....
Please keep us informed of your progress on this.
Michael
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Monday, Dec 15, 2003, at 22:04 Europe/Brussels, CK wrote:
I read:
This collection of Pd patches allows multiple users to edit a shared patch at the same time over a network. This allows Pd users to practice
thanks a lot hans, this is absolutely great!
take care,
For the next phase, I want to add state to the shared_patch so that I
can keep a xp4pd_server running available to everyone and anyone can
attach to it and see and edit the common patch. It would then be like
a Pd wiki.I have to give props to Kzrysztof Czaja for toxy. His [tot] made this
quite simple. For anyone who wants to port Pd to something other than
Tcl/Tk, I suggest you try toxy. It opens whole new realms of what Pd
can do. Then there is all the other Pd contributors, but I have to
stop somewhere otherwise this email will never end..hc
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are
deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity." -John Gilmore
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
It would be great to have the Teleo objects for Pd. I have been
writing Pd patches for http://www.amorphicrobotworks.org and we are
always on the hunt for better IO solutions. It would also be great if
you released your objects for Pd as open source. That you'll find that
people like me will fix the bugs for you. When we are working on a
project, we basically never have time to wait for someone to release a
new version of software. We generally fix it ourselves, if possible,
or use something different. ARW has been a big user of Max/MSP but we
are moving to Pd for a number of reasons, one being problems that copy
protection causes. The license just expired for a core bit of a
permanent installation so it wasn't working for a little while until we
could wrangle a new serial number.
I'll keep the list up to date on any xp4pd developments, of course.
I'd love to hear people's comments, experience, etc. with it.
.hc
On Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003, at 17:24 Europe/Brussels, michael shiloh
wrote:
Wow. This would be extremely cool. I really should get the Teleo stuff ported to PD....
Please keep us informed of your progress on this.
Michael
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Monday, Dec 15, 2003, at 22:04 Europe/Brussels, CK wrote:
I read:
This collection of Pd patches allows multiple users to edit a shared patch at the same time over a network. This allows Pd users to practice
thanks a lot hans, this is absolutely great!
take care,
For the next phase, I want to add state to the shared_patch so that I can keep a xp4pd_server running available to everyone and anyone can attach to it and see and edit the common patch. It would then be like a Pd wiki.
I have to give props to Kzrysztof Czaja for toxy. His [tot] made this quite simple. For anyone who wants to port Pd to something other than Tcl/Tk, I suggest you try toxy. It opens whole new realms of what Pd can do. Then there is all the other Pd contributors, but I have to stop somewhere otherwise this email will never end.
.hc
__ ____
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity." -John Gilmore
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
http://at.or.at/hans/
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I have to give props to Kzrysztof Czaja for toxy. His [tot] made this quite simple. For anyone who wants to port Pd to something other than Tcl/Tk, I suggest you try toxy. It opens whole new realms of what Pd can do. Then there is all the other Pd contributors, but I have to stop somewhere otherwise this email will never end.
I planned porting at least parts of PD to another GUI toolkit over x-mas, because tcl/tk is too slow for PDa. I hoped it could be of use for the "normal" version too. Of course making tcl/tk scripting work with that is not that easily possible :(
Guenter
.hc
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity." -John Gilmore
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
Hallo, guenter geiger hat gesagt: // guenter geiger wrote:
I planned porting at least parts of PD to another GUI toolkit over x-mas, because tcl/tk is too slow for PDa. I hoped it could be of use for the "normal" version too. Of course making tcl/tk scripting work with that is not that easily possible :(
Yeah, but as cool as toxy is, it also *is* exposing things, that better shouldn't be visible outside of Pd, i.e.: an implementation detail as "The GUI is written with TCL/Tk".
ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
At least for me its more an issue that scripting can be done, not nessesarily with the same commands.
dynamic patching and runtime GUI editing (as in adding/changing widgets) should be considered important features and whatever toolkit PD ends up in should still have these features.
What toolkit are you thinking for pda? (vector drawing the patches, or something different?)
B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "guenter geiger" geiger@xdv.org To: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@eds.org Cc: "CK" x@meta.lo-res.org; pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [PD] xp4pd - extreme programming over the network
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I have to give props to Kzrysztof Czaja for toxy. His [tot] made this quite simple. For anyone who wants to port Pd to something other than Tcl/Tk, I suggest you try toxy. It opens whole new realms of what Pd can do. Then there is all the other Pd contributors, but I have to stop somewhere otherwise this email will never end.
I planned porting at least parts of PD to another GUI toolkit over x-mas, because tcl/tk is too slow for PDa. I hoped it could be of use for the "normal" version too. Of course making tcl/tk scripting work with that is not that easily possible :(
Guenter
.hc
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity." -John Gilmore
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
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On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, B. Bogart wrote:
At least for me its more an issue that scripting can be done, not nessesarily with the same commands.
dynamic patching and runtime GUI editing (as in adding/changing widgets) should be considered important features and whatever toolkit PD ends up in should still have these features.
What toolkit are you thinking for pda? (vector drawing the patches, or something different?)
I have been searching around quite some time, the only toolkit that I found that covers my needs is wxWindows. In principle the GUI will be handled the same way it is handled now (vector drawing), but with more possibilities and reduced communication overhead.
Guenter
B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "guenter geiger" geiger@xdv.org To: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@eds.org Cc: "CK" x@meta.lo-res.org; pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [PD] xp4pd - extreme programming over the network
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I have to give props to Kzrysztof Czaja for toxy. His [tot] made this quite simple. For anyone who wants to port Pd to something other than Tcl/Tk, I suggest you try toxy. It opens whole new realms of what Pd can do. Then there is all the other Pd contributors, but I have to stop somewhere otherwise this email will never end.
I planned porting at least parts of PD to another GUI toolkit over x-mas, because tcl/tk is too slow for PDa. I hoped it could be of use for the "normal" version too. Of course making tcl/tk scripting work with that is not that easily possible :(
Guenter
.hc
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity." -John Gilmore
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
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Hi Guenter et al.,
I'm not sure if wxWindows has a "canvas" - type object. If it does (by any chance) then the port would be straightforward (although hundreds of changes... sys_vgui gets called in 440 places!)
If there isn't a canvas object in wx, then it would be necessary to write that functionality as well. This would mean, that whenever an object is erased or redrawn, you would have to detect which other objects got corrupted and re-draw them too. Naturally, you have to optimize this carefully or else you may end up with thousands of unnecessary redraws.
I've been planning to put this in the Pd layer (not the Gui) so that queued graphics updates wouldn't cause Pd to stall (thus fixing an important problem with Pd right now.) This would be a big project, one that I've been planning to put off until I can at least get the conception of Pd worked out completely.
cheers Miller
On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 06:41:16PM +0100, guenter geiger wrote:
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, B. Bogart wrote:
At least for me its more an issue that scripting can be done, not nessesarily with the same commands.
dynamic patching and runtime GUI editing (as in adding/changing widgets) should be considered important features and whatever toolkit PD ends up in should still have these features.
What toolkit are you thinking for pda? (vector drawing the patches, or something different?)
I have been searching around quite some time, the only toolkit that I found that covers my needs is wxWindows. In principle the GUI will be handled the same way it is handled now (vector drawing), but with more possibilities and reduced communication overhead.
Guenter
B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "guenter geiger" geiger@xdv.org To: "Hans-Christoph Steiner" hans@eds.org Cc: "CK" x@meta.lo-res.org; pd-list@iem.at Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [PD] xp4pd - extreme programming over the network
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I have to give props to Kzrysztof Czaja for toxy. His [tot] made this quite simple. For anyone who wants to port Pd to something other than Tcl/Tk, I suggest you try toxy. It opens whole new realms of what Pd can do. Then there is all the other Pd contributors, but I have to stop somewhere otherwise this email will never end.
I planned porting at least parts of PD to another GUI toolkit over x-mas, because tcl/tk is too slow for PDa. I hoped it could be of use for the "normal" version too. Of course making tcl/tk scripting work with that is not that easily possible :(
Guenter
.hc
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity." -John Gilmore
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
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On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
This allows Pd users to practice 'extreme programming' (aka 'XP') in realtime over the internet. XP is the practice of 2 or more programmers working on the same code at the same time collaboratively.
Collaborative programming may be nice, but I'm sorry to tell you that it's not what Extreme Programming is at all.
Here is a webpage that explains it better than I ever could, as it is written by Ron Jeffries himself.
http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/whatisxp.htm
Mathieu Bouchard http://artengine.ca/matju
On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 11:28:43AM -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Collaborative programming may be nice, but I'm sorry to tell you that it's not what Extreme Programming is at all.
Let's call it PDCP programming then.
Marc
i believe he was just making shorthand references to one of the bigger, more radical aspects of XP that sets it apart:
http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/whatisxp.htm#pair
Pair Programming
All production software in XP is built by two programmers, sitting side by side, at the same machine. This practice ensures that all production code is reviewed by at least one other programmer, and results in better design, better testing, and better code.
It may seem inefficient to have two programmers doing "one programmer's job", but the reverse is true. Research into pair programming http://www.pairprogramming.com shows that pairing produces better code in about the same time as programmers working singly. That's right: two heads really are better than one!
Some programmers object to pair programming without ever trying it. It does take some practice to do well, and you need to do it well for a few weeks to see the results. Ninety percent of programmers who learn pair programming prefer it, so we highly recommend it to all teams.
Pairing, in addition to providing better code and tests, also serves to communicate knowledge throughout the team. As pairs switch, everyone gets the benefits of everyone's specialized knowledge. Programmers learn, their skills improve, they become move valuable to the team and to the company. Pairing, even on its own outside of XP, is a big win for everyone.
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
This allows Pd users to practice 'extreme programming' (aka 'XP') in realtime over the internet. XP is the practice of 2 or more programmers working on the same code at the same time collaboratively.
Collaborative programming may be nice, but I'm sorry to tell you that it's not what Extreme Programming is at all.
Here is a webpage that explains it better than I ever could, as it is written by Ron Jeffries himself.
http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/whatisxp.htm
Mathieu Bouchard http://artengine.ca/matju
PD-list mailing list PD-list@iem.at http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
On Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003, at 17:28 Europe/Brussels, Mathieu Bouchard
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
This allows Pd users to practice 'extreme programming' (aka 'XP') in realtime over the internet. XP is the practice of 2 or more programmers working on the same code at the same time collaboratively.
Collaborative programming may be nice, but I'm sorry to tell you that
it's not what Extreme Programming is at all.Here is a webpage that explains it better than I ever could, as it is written by Ron Jeffries himself.
Ok, so maybe I don't have the business practices and team management
included yet, but maybe I am going to ;). But based on the 'Core
Practices', I would say that this qualifies as XP:
Core Practices: Simple Design, Pair Programming, Test-Driven
Development, Design Improvement, Continuous Integration, Collective
Code Ownership
especially when you consider the focus on 'Pair Programming'.
.hc
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to
realize his wishes.
Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish.
-William Carlos Williams
-
B. Bogart -
CK -
Frank Barknecht -
guenter geiger -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Josh Steiner -
Marc Lavallée -
Mathieu Bouchard -
michael shiloh -
Miller Puckette