I'm sorry for this more like OT, it's just my thought about improving PD and it's externals in another way.
I'm struggling ...
PD is one of the best tools for making people learn/experiment/perform/interact digital/electronic art at it's best. But where are the people that are PD's target. I'm trying to suggest that PD should try to follow a Popper-alike way of developing. Make it easy accessable for the people and use their input. Except if PD and it's externals are purely egoistic developments, which i don't think is the case ;)
The more people you can involve the more feedback/developer/help you get in improving. I'm sorry for saying such things, as it is something that is an actual idea of most of the people here, i'm not trying to sell you for stupid.
Maybe i'm just frustrated about my own lack of skill. I was fascinated about projects like pdp, gridflow and especially desiredata. But installing them is a hell for me as a OS X user, and the least i wanna do is search/install for all the necessary things.
Now just some suggestions (excuse me for being rude):
- Vastly improvement of the webcommunity, very important:
Except for a very good maillinglist there is no real source for a community for pd on the net. The forum at hurleur.com is a joke, and that the official site is deadland is just sad. Furthermore the site needs to be ordered and probably hardly overworked, there is nothing wrong in making it accesible to as many people as possible by runnig it in plone, but is it nessecary? The people accesing the site now will probably not need that the site is universible compatible with every last browser on this earth and history, etc.
- Improvement in usability of PD & e(xternals):
Projects like the installers of iOhannes and desiredata are genial! All externals should follow a path where they can make themself accesible to the public with ease. It must be very frustrating to put lot's of effort and time into something and then nobody wants it.
- And last, the documentation:
Order, Unifying, Improve
Please don't kill me for this mail. Lately i had a message in a Fortune-Cookie saying that "i have a reputation for being very straight forward and honest", i agree and want to follow that path. This mail is not meant to flame or criticize, especially not the developers. I bow down in front of the huge effort all of you put into PD & e. I just think the way of opening and easy accessing the public is the best way in proving that PD is the best and drive it's development.
yours, adrian
First, let me say that I have got some things running really stable - ie. generative MIDI output, and Gem, once I upgraded to the experimental version, and modified some things in my patches, to get around limitations of that version.
However, my biggest problem with PD is still that things crash all the time, but nobody ever can say why, and I'm not sure if things are improving. Particularly, when working with digital audio, there seem to be some problems, as well as in the opening and closing, and modifying of files, generally. I'm not sure if this is a WinXP issue, or what - but I'm having such problems even with "core" PD, no externals added, just modifying Miller's example patches. The frustrating thing is, others don't seem to be able to replicate it, and sometimes even I can't replicate the error.
But still - unstable is unstable, and for a live performance or installation, that's a BIG problem. What am I to do if PD crashes in the middle of a 45 minutes piece with live musicians???
The end result is that I may be forced to use commercial software like Reaktor, when it would be nice to use something open source, and where I would be ready to share the results of my patches with the PD community.
~David
On 10/14/06, Adrian nordbaer@gmail.com wrote:
I'm sorry for this more like OT, it's just my thought about improving PD and it's externals in another way.
I'm struggling ...
PD is one of the best tools for making people learn/experiment/perform/interact digital/electronic art at it's best. But where are the people that are PD's target. I'm trying to suggest that PD should try to follow a Popper-alike way of developing. Make it easy accessable for the people and use their input. Except if PD and it's externals are purely egoistic developments, which i don't think is the case ;)
However, my biggest problem with PD is still that things crash all the time, but nobody ever can say why, and I'm not sure if things are improving.
i get this, but i figured it was just stack-corruption due to 64bit issues. PD 0.39 was extremely stable for me on winXP, even when using zexy/toxy/pool and a handful of assorted other extensions..
if you want to know why, or get closer to knowing why, you can compile pd with the '-ggdb' flag, then run 'gdb pd' then 'run' then 'bt' when it crashes, to get a detailed backtrace with line numbers. this would save developers time..especially when they can't recreate the bug.
But still - unstable is unstable, and for a live performance or installation, that's a BIG problem. What am I to do if PD crashes in the middle of a 45 minutes piece with live musicians???
keep a second PD instance on the ready, minimized?
Well, I managed to crash 0.40-0 once on XP, although I can't replicate the problem... my plan is to make a patch that automatically opens and closes patches adn other files repeatedly to see if that can engender crashes. It's been pretty tough to debug things like that on XP (the last such problem went away when I used the debugger). However, 0.39 ended up getting updated twice before it was exactly right (0.39-2) and perhaps the same will end up happening with 0.40...
cheers Miller
On Sat, Oct 14, 2006 at 12:58:22PM -0500, David Powers wrote:
First, let me say that I have got some things running really stable - ie. generative MIDI output, and Gem, once I upgraded to the experimental version, and modified some things in my patches, to get around limitations of that version.
However, my biggest problem with PD is still that things crash all the time, but nobody ever can say why, and I'm not sure if things are improving. Particularly, when working with digital audio, there seem to be some problems, as well as in the opening and closing, and modifying of files, generally. I'm not sure if this is a WinXP issue, or what - but I'm having such problems even with "core" PD, no externals added, just modifying Miller's example patches. The frustrating thing is, others don't seem to be able to replicate it, and sometimes even I can't replicate the error.
But still - unstable is unstable, and for a live performance or installation, that's a BIG problem. What am I to do if PD crashes in the middle of a 45 minutes piece with live musicians???
The end result is that I may be forced to use commercial software like Reaktor, when it would be nice to use something open source, and where I would be ready to share the results of my patches with the PD community.
~David
On 10/14/06, Adrian nordbaer@gmail.com wrote:
I'm sorry for this more like OT, it's just my thought about improving PD and it's externals in another way.
I'm struggling ...
PD is one of the best tools for making people learn/experiment/perform/interact digital/electronic art at it's best. But where are the people that are PD's target. I'm trying to suggest that PD should try to follow a Popper-alike way of developing. Make it easy accessable for the people and use their input. Except if PD and it's externals are purely egoistic developments, which i don't think is the case ;)
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
hi, Pd version 0.40-0test05 on XP no externals just a lot of abstrations. I have some crash, if you need help debugging. What are you looking for?
nb It's not difficult to fry XP with cpu intensive stuff. mvh/ Steffen
At 01:29 15-10-2006, you wrote:
Well, I managed to crash 0.40-0 once on XP, although I can't replicate the problem... my plan is to make a patch that automatically opens and closes patches adn other files repeatedly to see if that can engender crashes. It's been pretty tough to debug things like that on XP (the last such problem went away when I used the debugger). However, 0.39 ended up getting updated twice before it was exactly right (0.39-2) and perhaps the same will end up happening with 0.40...
cheers Miller
On Sat, Oct 14, 2006 at 12:58:22PM -0500, David Powers wrote:
First, let me say that I have got some things running really stable - ie. generative MIDI output, and Gem, once I upgraded to the experimental version, and modified some things in my patches, to get around limitations of that version.
However, my biggest problem with PD is still that things crash all the time, but nobody ever can say why, and I'm not sure if things are improving. Particularly, when working with digital audio, there seem to be some problems, as well as in the opening and closing, and modifying of files, generally. I'm not sure if this is a WinXP issue, or what - but I'm having such problems even with "core" PD, no externals added, just modifying Miller's example patches. The frustrating thing is, others don't seem to be able to replicate it, and sometimes even I can't replicate the error.
But still - unstable is unstable, and for a live performance or installation, that's a BIG problem. What am I to do if PD crashes in the middle of a 45 minutes piece with live musicians???
The end result is that I may be forced to use commercial software like Reaktor, when it would be nice to use something open source, and where I would be ready to share the results of my patches with the PD community.
~David
On 10/14/06, Adrian nordbaer@gmail.com wrote:
I'm sorry for this more like OT, it's just my thought about improving PD and it's externals in another way.
I'm struggling ...
PD is one of the best tools for making people learn/experiment/perform/interact digital/electronic art at it's best. But where are the people that are PD's target. I'm trying to suggest that PD should try to follow a Popper-alike way of developing. Make it easy accessable for the people and use their input. Except if PD and it's externals are purely egoistic developments, which i don't think is the case ;)
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/475 - Release Date: 13-10-2006
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Well, what I need is a simple patch that crashes reliably on XP, preferably with Pd 0.40-1. (I think test5 had another crash bug that I tracked down only after several days...)
cheers Miller On Sun, Oct 15, 2006 at 03:34:10AM +0200, Steffen Leve Poulsen wrote:
hi, Pd version 0.40-0test05 on XP no externals just a lot of abstrations. I have some crash, if you need help debugging. What are you looking for?
nb It's not difficult to fry XP with cpu intensive stuff. mvh/ Steffen
At 01:29 15-10-2006, you wrote:
Well, I managed to crash 0.40-0 once on XP, although I can't replicate the problem... my plan is to make a patch that automatically opens and closes patches adn other files repeatedly to see if that can engender crashes. It's been pretty tough to debug things like that on XP (the last such problem went away when I used the debugger). However, 0.39 ended up getting updated twice before it was exactly right (0.39-2) and perhaps the same will end up happening with 0.40...
cheers Miller
On Sat, Oct 14, 2006 at 12:58:22PM -0500, David Powers wrote:
First, let me say that I have got some things running really stable - ie. generative MIDI output, and Gem, once I upgraded to the experimental version, and modified some things in my patches, to get around limitations of that version.
However, my biggest problem with PD is still that things crash all the time, but nobody ever can say why, and I'm not sure if things are improving. Particularly, when working with digital audio, there seem to be some problems, as well as in the opening and closing, and modifying of files, generally. I'm not sure if this is a WinXP issue, or what - but I'm having such problems even with "core" PD, no externals added, just modifying Miller's example patches. The frustrating thing is, others don't seem to be able to replicate it, and sometimes even I can't replicate the error.
But still - unstable is unstable, and for a live performance or installation, that's a BIG problem. What am I to do if PD crashes in the middle of a 45 minutes piece with live musicians???
The end result is that I may be forced to use commercial software like Reaktor, when it would be nice to use something open source, and where I would be ready to share the results of my patches with the PD community.
~David
On 10/14/06, Adrian nordbaer@gmail.com wrote:
I'm sorry for this more like OT, it's just my thought about improving PD and it's externals in another way.
I'm struggling ...
PD is one of the best tools for making people learn/experiment/perform/interact digital/electronic art at it's best. But where are the people that are PD's target. I'm trying to suggest that PD should try to follow a Popper-alike way of developing. Make it easy accessable for the people and use their input. Except if PD and it's externals are purely egoistic developments, which i don't think is the case ;)
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
-- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/475 - Release Date: 13-10-2006
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On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, carmen wrote:
But still - unstable is unstable, and for a live performance or installation, that's a BIG problem. What am I to do if PD crashes in the middle of a 45 minutes piece with live musicians???
keep a second PD instance on the ready, minimized?
It doesn't help when doing live patching unless you save all of the time or you have auto-save (which is not implemented anywhere).
However, in DesireData, if it crashes, the client stays open, and is able to copy a patch to the clipboard, which can be pasted into any other instance of DesireData. (however copy+paste is not 100% implemented)
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
The 'crash' I see most on 0.39 and XP is using openpanel and trying to navigate to a file. Pd just quits with a result of 1. The debugger doesn't catch anything beyond the exit result. Can you reproduce that in 0.40?
On 10/14/06, Miller Puckette mpuckett@imusic1.ucsd.edu wrote:
Well, I managed to crash 0.40-0 once on XP, although I can't replicate the problem... my plan is to make a patch that automatically opens and closes patches adn other files repeatedly to see if that can engender crashes. It's been pretty tough to debug things like that on XP (the last such problem went away when I used the debugger). However, 0.39 ended up getting updated twice before it was exactly right (0.39-2) and perhaps the same will end up happening with 0.40...
hi this crashes on XP vh/ Steffen
open-close-helpfiles.pd
#N canvas 381 0 564 283 12; #X obj 223 97 list split 1; #X obj 223 52 list append; #N canvas 0 0 1267 741 help-filelist 0; #X msg 115 -50 0-intro.pd acoustics-help.pd acoustics~-help.pd adc~_dac~-help.pd append-help.pd bag-help.pd bang-help.pd bang~-help.pd biquad~-help.pd block~-help.pd bng-help.pd bp~-help.pd canvas-help.pd change-help.pd clip~-help.pd cos~-help.pd cpole~-help.pd cputime-help.pd czero_rev~-help.pd czero~-help.pd declare-help.pd delay-help.pd delread~-help.pd delwrite~-help.pd drawnumber-help.pd drawpolygon-help.pd element-help.pd env~-help.pd fft~-help.pd float-help.pd framp~-help.pd gatom-help.pd get-help.pd getsize-help.pd graph-help.pd hdial-help.pd help-intro.pd hip~-help.pd hslider-help.pd int-help.pd key-help.pd line-help.pd line~-help.pd list-help.pd lop~-help.pd makefilename-help.pd makenote-help.pd math-help.pd message-help.pd metro.pd midi-help.pd moses-help.pd my_canvas-help.pd namecanvas-help.pd netreceive-help.pd netsend-help.pd noise~-help.pd numbox2-help.pd openpanel-help.pd operators-help.pd osc~-help.pd otherbinops-help.pd pack-help.pd pd-help.pd phasor~-help.pd pipe-help.pd plot-help.pd pointer-help.pd poly-help.pd print-help.pd print~-help.pd qlist-help.pd random-help.pd readsf~-help.pd realtime-help.pd receive-help.pd route-help.pd rpole~-help.pd rsqrt~-help.pd rzero_rev~-help.pd rzero~-help.pd samphold~-help.pd savepanel-help.pd select-help.pd send-help.pd send~-help.pd set-help.pd setsize-help.pd sigbinops-help.pd sig~-help.pd snapshot~-help.pd soundfiler-help.pd spigot-help.pd sqrt~-help.pd stripnote-help.pd struct-help.pd sublist-help.pd swap-help.pd switch~-help.pd tabosc4~-help.pd tabplay~-help.pd tabread-help.pd tabread4~-help.pd tabreceive~-help.pd tabsend~-help.pd tabwrite-help.pd tabwrite~-help.pd text-help.pd textfile-help.pd threshold~-help.pd throw~-help.pd timer-help.pd toggle-help.pd trigger-help.pd unpack-help.pd until-help.pd value-help.pd vcf~-help.pd vdial-help.pd vd~-help.pd vline~-help.pd vslider-help.pd vu-help.pd wrap~-help.pd writesf~-help.pd x_all_guis.pd; #X obj 115 565 outlet; #X text 278 -75 all files; #N canvas 20 0 677 364 bugs 0; #X msg 41 62 append-help.pd element-help.pd getsize-help.pd help-intro.pd ; #X msg 79 213 0-intro.pd setsize-help.pd; #X text 133 10 consecutive crashes:; #X text 88 182 sometimes: (after editing the patch , I think); #X msg 486 5 ; pd-bugs vis 0; #X restore 764 -73 pd bugs; #X obj 640 -72 r nobugs; #X obj 115 -77 r all; #X text 710 -72 : omit; #X msg 640 1 acoustics-help.pd acoustics~-help.pd adc~_dac~-help.pd bag-help.pd bang-help.pd bang~-help.pd biquad~-help.pd block~-help.pd bng-help.pd bp~-help.pd canvas-help.pd change-help.pd clip~-help.pd cos~-help.pd cpole~-help.pd cputime-help.pd czero_rev~-help.pd czero~-help.pd declare-help.pd delay-help.pd delread~-help.pd delwrite~-help.pd drawnumber-help.pd drawpolygon-help.pd env~-help.pd fft~-help.pd float-help.pd framp~-help.pd gatom-help.pd get-help.pd graph-help.pd hdial-help.pd hip~-help.pd hslider-help.pd int-help.pd key-help.pd line-help.pd line~-help.pd list-help.pd lop~-help.pd makefilename-help.pd makenote-help.pd math-help.pd message-help.pd metro.pd midi-help.pd moses-help.pd my_canvas-help.pd namecanvas-help.pd netreceive-help.pd netsend-help.pd noise~-help.pd numbox2-help.pd openpanel-help.pd operators-help.pd osc~-help.pd otherbinops-help.pd pack-help.pd pd-help.pd phasor~-help.pd pipe-help.pd plot-help.pd pointer-help.pd poly-help.pd print-help.pd print~-help.pd qlist-help.pd random-help.pd readsf~-help.pd realtime-help.pd receive-help.pd route-help.pd rpole~-help.pd rsqrt~-help.pd rzero_rev~-help.pd rzero~-help.pd samphold~-help.pd savepanel-help.pd select-help.pd send-help.pd send~-help.pd set-help.pd sigbinops-help.pd sig~-help.pd snapshot~-help.pd soundfiler-help.pd spigot-help.pd sqrt~-help.pd stripnote-help.pd struct-help.pd sublist-help.pd swap-help.pd switch~-help.pd tabosc4~-help.pd tabplay~-help.pd tabread-help.pd tabread4~-help.pd tabreceive~-help.pd tabsend~-help.pd tabwrite-help.pd tabwrite~-help.pd text-help.pd textfile-help.pd threshold~-help.pd throw~-help.pd timer-help.pd toggle-help.pd trigger-help.pd unpack-help.pd until-help.pd value-help.pd vcf~-help.pd vdial-help.pd vd~-help.pd vline~-help.pd vslider-help.pd vu-help.pd wrap~-help.pd writesf~-help.pd x_all_guis.pd; #X connect 0 0 1 0; #X connect 4 0 7 0; #X connect 5 0 0 0; #X connect 7 0 1 0; #X restore 223 17 pd help-filelist; #N canvas 0 0 632 412 openclose 0; #X obj 146 61 symbol; #X obj 138 311 symbol; #X obj 146 239 t b a; #X msg 146 92 $1 ; pd open $1 c:/programmer/pd/doc/5.reference ; ; #X obj 146 35 inlet; #X msg 138 341 ; pd-$1 menuclose 1 ; next bang; #X obj 205 239 r delay; #X obj 146 191 symbol; #X obj 130 272 del 500; #X connect 0 0 3 0; #X connect 1 0 5 0; #X connect 2 0 8 0; #X connect 2 1 1 1; #X connect 3 0 7 0; #X connect 4 0 0 0; #X connect 6 0 8 1; #X connect 7 0 2 0; #X connect 8 0 1 0; #X restore 223 181 pd openclose; #X obj 223 132 t a a; #X msg 6 93 ; delay 100 ; nobugs bang ;; #N canvas 0 0 462 312 feed 0; #X obj 60 33 r next; #X obj 60 59 del 500; #X obj 120 33 r delay; #X obj 30 215 outlet; #X obj 167 102 tgl 15 0 empty empty empty 17 7 0 10 -262144 -1 -1 1 1; #X obj 185 37 loadbang; #X obj 184 67 1; #X obj 96 163 spigot; #X connect 0 0 1 0; #X connect 1 0 7 0; #X connect 2 0 1 1; #X connect 4 0 7 1; #X connect 5 0 6 0; #X connect 6 0 4 0; #X connect 7 0 3 0; #X coords 0 -1 1 1 85 19 1 100 100; #X restore 129 17 pd feed; #N canvas 0 0 470 320 log 0; #X obj 96 240 textfile; #X msg 96 214 add $1 , write pd-testlog.txt; #X obj 163 105 tgl 15 0 empty empty empty 17 7 0 10 -262144 -1 -1 1 1; #X obj 181 70 loadbang; #X obj 184 97 1; #X obj 96 163 spigot; #X obj 73 131 inlet; #X obj 228 123 r nobugs; #X obj 228 150 f; #X obj 259 151 + 1; #X obj 96 189 pack s f; #X connect 1 0 0 0; #X connect 2 0 5 1; #X connect 3 0 4 0; #X connect 4 0 2 0; #X connect 5 0 10 0; #X connect 6 0 5 0; #X connect 7 0 8 0; #X connect 8 0 9 0; #X connect 8 0 10 1; #X connect 9 0 8 1; #X connect 10 0 1 0; #X coords 0 -1 1 1 85 25 1 100 100; #X restore 374 152 pd log; #X text 132 210 <-crash; #X msg 40 210 ; all bang ;; #X msg 7 49 ; nobugs bang ;; #X msg 7 6 ; pd-bugs vis 1 ;; #X msg 344 94 ; nobugs bang ;; #X connect 0 0 4 0; #X connect 0 1 1 1; #X connect 0 2 12 0; #X connect 1 0 0 0; #X connect 2 0 1 0; #X connect 4 0 3 0; #X connect 4 1 7 0;
#X connect 6 0 1 0;
At 05:07 15-10-2006, you wrote:
Well, what I need is a simple patch that crashes reliably on XP, preferably with Pd 0.40-1. (I think test5 had another crash bug that I tracked down only after several days...)
cheers Miller On Sun, Oct 15, 2006 at 03:34:10AM +0200, Steffen Leve Poulsen wrote:
hi, Pd version 0.40-0test05 on XP no externals just a lot of abstrations. I have some crash, if you need help debugging. What are you looking for?
nb It's not difficult to fry XP with cpu intensive stuff. mvh/ Steffen
At 01:29 15-10-2006, you wrote:
Well, I managed to crash 0.40-0 once on XP, although I can't replicate the problem... my plan is to make a patch that automatically opens and closes patches adn other files repeatedly to see if that can engender crashes. It's been pretty tough to debug things like that on XP (the last such problem went away when I used the debugger). However, 0.39 ended up getting updated twice before it was exactly right (0.39-2) and perhaps the same will end up happening with 0.40...
cheers Miller
On Sat, Oct 14, 2006 at 12:58:22PM -0500, David Powers wrote:
First, let me say that I have got some things running really stable - ie. generative MIDI output, and Gem, once I upgraded to the experimental version, and modified some things in my patches, to get around limitations of that version.
However, my biggest problem with PD is still that things crash all the time, but nobody ever can say why, and I'm not sure if things are improving. Particularly, when working with digital audio, there seem to be some problems, as well as in the opening and closing, and modifying of files, generally. I'm not sure if this is a WinXP issue, or what - but I'm having such problems even with "core" PD, no externals added, just modifying Miller's example patches. The frustrating thing is, others don't seem to be able to replicate it, and sometimes even I can't replicate the error.
But still - unstable is unstable, and for a live performance or installation, that's a BIG problem. What am I to do if PD crashes in the middle of a 45 minutes piece with live musicians???
The end result is that I may be forced to use commercial software like Reaktor, when it would be nice to use something open source, and where I would be ready to share the results of my patches with the PD community.
~David
On 10/14/06, Adrian nordbaer@gmail.com wrote:
I'm sorry for this more like OT, it's just my thought about improving PD and it's externals in another way.
I'm struggling ...
PD is one of the best tools for making people learn/experiment/perform/interact digital/electronic art at it's best. But where are the people that are PD's target. I'm trying to suggest that PD should try to follow a Popper-alike way of developing. Make it easy accessable for the people and use their input. Except if PD and it's externals are purely egoistic developments, which i don't think is the case ;)
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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Now just some suggestions (excuse me for being rude):
- Vastly improvement of the webcommunity, very important:
Except for a very good maillinglist there is no real source for a community for pd on the net. The forum at hurleur.com is a joke, and that the official site is deadland is just sad. Furthermore the site needs to be ordered and probably hardly overworked, there is nothing wrong in making it accesible to as many people as possible by runnig it in plone, but is it nessecary? The people accesing the site now will probably not need that the site is universible compatible with every last browser on this earth and history, etc.
feel free, to do the website in shockwave-flash or whatever you like. but before you do so: according to your email, the only problem with plone is, that it is accessible to as many people as possible. at least, this is the only feature of plone you mentioned - apart from not necessarily bein necessary. so what is your point here?
then i'd like to know, what you consider "deadland" (at least, there _is_ activity on this site)
last of all: somebody has to run the site. feel free to be the one. if it becomes a success, you will get a lot of joiners and probably a bit of honour.
mfg.adsr IOhannes
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, Adrian wrote:
Maybe i'm just frustrated about my own lack of skill. I was fascinated about projects like pdp, gridflow and especially desiredata. But installing them is a hell for me as a OS X user, and the least i wanna do is search/install for all the necessary things.
Installing those programs on OSX is also a chore for me, but that's mostly because I don't use OSX. I really don't have to. However, if you care, you could make some effort in talking to OSX users that are trying to make those things work. I've just received a mail today, telling me a list of fixes to do about OSX for the new makefile system which was introduced 7 months ago already.
- Vastly improvement of the webcommunity, very important:
Except for a very good maillinglist there is no real source for a community for pd on the net. The forum at hurleur.com is a joke,
We don't need separate forums other than the mailing-list unless those forums have different focuses than the main mailing-list. For example, the pdmtl mailing-list is focused on French-speaking and/or Montréal-based use of PureData.
(I don't consider web-only forums to be worth anything more than email-based forums, in most cases)
and that the official site is deadland is just sad.
Which official site? Do you mean http://crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/software.html or http://puredata.info/ ? I think that Hans is already making quite a bit of effort to maintain the latter... What do you want it to be?
Furthermore the site needs to be ordered and probably hardly overworked,
"hardly overworked" is almost certainly two bad translations put next to each other. (Maybe you should consult a dictionary.)
there is nothing wrong in making it accesible to as many people as possible by runnig it in plone, but is it nessecary?
You want to prepare the terrain so that in the next email you may suggest replacing Plone by your favourite content management system; however you're doing a bad job of arguing against Plone, especially because you're not arguing against it.
The people accesing the site now will probably not need that the site is universible compatible with every last browser on this earth and history, etc.
Yeah, like what do you mean by that? Why do you care that the site is too compatible???
- And last, the documentation:
Order, Unifying, Improve
If you care, participate. There was a talk about the PureData Documentation Project in Bergen, Norway, *today*, by Ben, Alexandre, Darsha, Stéphanie and Koray. There are PDDP meetings online as well, especially on IRC, but there hasn't been one since last spring if I recall correctly.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Thank you both for picking up some of the points,
where as my actual concern was, that PD & externals should be easier accesable by the not-so-deep invovlved public. The other points where merely suggestions, so you can ignore them if they are that appart from reality.
But thank you Mathieu for bringing up OS X, i understand now that this is probably the core of my problems. I will try to fix a linux here and look how it goes.
lg adi
Okay, so Adrian might not have put his concerns in the best way, but
I think that we shouldn't discount what he's saying.
For instance, the website puredata.info could use some sprucing up.
I don't have any CMS axe to grind, but it would be nice if the front
page was less technobabble and more advertisement for PD. It would
also be nice to have the different downloads explained - the download
page has links to two different versions, Puckette's .39 and extended
version .38.4. If you were new to Pure Data, which one would you go
for? Perhaps you might want some advice on which one to download?
The puredata.info website does not truly represent what could be done
with the internet resources, and injecting a little PR/marketing
would not be a bad thing. For those not familiar with it, take a
look at the Processing.org webpage - another open-source project,
with a webpage that really spells out the things that can be done
with that language. For many people - myself included - , the
puredata.info webpage is an important first call as they start to
learn PD, and making it more accessible would only benefit the
community in the long run.
Pete
On 15 Oct 2006, at 22:06, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, Adrian wrote:
Maybe i'm just frustrated about my own lack of skill. I was
fascinated about projects like pdp, gridflow and especially
desiredata. But installing them is a hell for me as a OS X user,
and the least i wanna do is search/install for all the necessary
things.Installing those programs on OSX is also a chore for me, but that's
mostly because I don't use OSX. I really don't have to. However, if
you care, you could make some effort in talking to OSX users that
are trying to make those things work. I've just received a mail
today, telling me a list of fixes to do about OSX for the new
makefile system which was introduced 7 months ago already.
- Vastly improvement of the webcommunity, very important:
Except for a very good maillinglist there is no real source for a community for pd on the net. The forum at hurleur.com is a joke,
We don't need separate forums other than the mailing-list unless
those forums have different focuses than the main mailing-list. For
example, the pdmtl mailing-list is focused on French-speaking and/ or Montréal-based use of PureData.(I don't consider web-only forums to be worth anything more than
email-based forums, in most cases)and that the official site is deadland is just sad.
Which official site? Do you mean http://crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/ software.html or http://puredata.info/ ? I think that Hans is
already making quite a bit of effort to maintain the latter... What
do you want it to be?Furthermore the site needs to be ordered and probably hardly
overworked,"hardly overworked" is almost certainly two bad translations put
next to each other. (Maybe you should consult a dictionary.)there is nothing wrong in making it accesible to as many people as
possible by runnig it in plone, but is it nessecary?You want to prepare the terrain so that in the next email you may
suggest replacing Plone by your favourite content management
system; however you're doing a bad job of arguing against Plone,
especially because you're not arguing against it.The people accesing the site now will probably not need that the
site is universible compatible with every last browser on this
earth and history, etc.Yeah, like what do you mean by that? Why do you care that the site
is too compatible???
- And last, the documentation:
Order, Unifying, Improve
If you care, participate. There was a talk about the PureData
Documentation Project in Bergen, Norway, *today*, by Ben,
Alexandre, Darsha, Stéphanie and Koray. There are PDDP meetings
online as well, especially on IRC, but there hasn't been one since
last spring if I recall correctly._ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC
Canada_______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
The forum at hurleur.com is a joke,
We don't need separate forums other than the mailing-list unless those forums have different focuses than the main mailing-list<<
well, i think it's pretty intimidating to ask really basic questions on the list, but it doesn't seem so silly on the forum. i wish more users would go on there and just post questions and answers and patches.
the mailing list turns into a bit of a pissing contest sometimes. i think that gets a bit initimidating for new users. i don't think it would hurt at all if the forum could pick up the pace a bit. just to dismiss it as a joke is to miss the point i think.
Apologies for the expression joke; i like the forum. Just the usage of it is low.
On 10/16/06, hard off hard.off@gmail.com wrote:
The forum at hurleur.com is a joke,
We don't need separate forums other than the mailing-list unless those forums have different focuses than the main mailing-list<<
well, i think it's pretty intimidating to ask really basic questions on the list, but it doesn't seem so silly on the forum. i wish more users would go on there and just post questions and answers and patches.
the mailing list turns into a bit of a pissing contest sometimes. i think that gets a bit initimidating for new users. i don't think it would hurt at all if the forum could pick up the pace a bit. just to dismiss it as a joke is to miss the point i think.
hi
On 10/16/06, Pete Hindle petehindle@gmx.co.uk wrote:
For instance, the website puredata.info could use some sprucing up. I don't have any CMS axe to grind, but it would be nice if the front page was less technobabble and more advertisement for PD.
well, there seems to be some misunderstanding about open source projects.
there is no army of HTML designers ready to do this redesign. pretty much everything associated with pd was done because somebody gave their time to do it.
so, *you* could do it [prolly involves work], but there's no one else who's going to pick it up. it's not like apple [ipod-land], where people are paid to do this kinda work. it's a community based project- uneven and irregular [like communities are].
I thought I'd chip in on this discussion as a low-level user, because
the discussion had drifted away into technical discussions about
crashes on various platforms.
Where I live there is a community-led cinema starting up, and in
order to function they've split up organisation into different
groups. There is the planning group, the bar staff group, the
marketing group, etc. Perhaps the PD community could do something
similar, and by doing a little bit of organisation make these big
jobs into something more manageable. Personally, I don't think I
know enough about PD to take on the job of re-editing the homepage -
my point was that PD could present a friendlier face to the world.
What that face should look like has to be decided by more than one
person.
Pete
On 16 Oct 2006, at 14:12, jjjs wrote:
hi
On 10/16/06, Pete Hindle petehindle@gmx.co.uk wrote:
For instance, the website puredata.info could use some sprucing up. I don't have any CMS axe to grind, but it would be nice if the front page was less technobabble and more advertisement for PD.
well, there seems to be some misunderstanding about open source
projects.there is no army of HTML designers ready to do this redesign. pretty much everything associated with pd was done because somebody gave their time to do it.
so, *you* could do it [prolly involves work], but there's no one else who's going to pick it up. it's not like apple [ipod-land], where people are paid to do this kinda work. it's a community based project- uneven and irregular [like communities are].
-- \js [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]
The forum is the first impression many people get of Pd, it's an essential stop for noobs and max converts, I think it's very valuable.
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 21:02:43 +0900 "hard off" hard.off@gmail.com wrote:
i like the forum.
and the forum likes you too.
it would be good if more people posted stuff there i think. there is a different atmosphere there .... definately way more 'touchy feely / hands on ' than this mailing list.
Agree, a good atmosphere on the forum.
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
You don't need to know about Pd to just do it. You need to know some zope/plone and have a vision for it and get write access. I think we all know .info needs a lick of paint, it's been said many times. Popularising the facade of Pd might bring in a few new users.
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:33:53 +0100 Pete Hindle petehindle@gmx.co.uk wrote:
I thought I'd chip in on this discussion as a low-level user, because
the discussion had drifted away into technical discussions about
crashes on various platforms.Where I live there is a community-led cinema starting up, and in
order to function they've split up organisation into different
groups. There is the planning group, the bar staff group, the
marketing group, etc. Perhaps the PD community could do something
similar, and by doing a little bit of organisation make these big
jobs into something more manageable. Personally, I don't think I
know enough about PD to take on the job of re-editing the homepage -
my point was that PD could present a friendlier face to the world.
What that face should look like has to be decided by more than one
person.Pete
On 16 Oct 2006, at 14:12, jjjs wrote:
hi
On 10/16/06, Pete Hindle petehindle@gmx.co.uk wrote:
For instance, the website puredata.info could use some sprucing up. I don't have any CMS axe to grind, but it would be nice if the front page was less technobabble and more advertisement for PD.
well, there seems to be some misunderstanding about open source
projects.there is no army of HTML designers ready to do this redesign. pretty much everything associated with pd was done because somebody gave their time to do it.
so, *you* could do it [prolly involves work], but there's no one else who's going to pick it up. it's not like apple [ipod-land], where people are paid to do this kinda work. it's a community based project- uneven and irregular [like communities are].
-- \js [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 08:07:24PM +0900, hard off wrote:
well, i think it's pretty intimidating to ask really basic questions on the list, but it doesn't seem so silly on the forum. i wish more users would go on there and just post questions and answers and patches.
the mailing list turns into a bit of a pissing contest sometimes. i think that gets a bit initimidating for new users. i don't think it
I think you have a really good point. How can we improve this situation and make the list friendlier?
Chris.
chris@mccormick.cx http://mccormick.cx
The problem there is a lack of people willing to put time into
working on the Windows build. A lot of these bugs are often
relatively easy to fix once they are isolated. Isolating them is
usually the hard part and can be like 90% of the work with many bugs.
Bugs will be much more likely to be fixed if they are reported in the
bug tracker with a patch that can reliably demonstrate the bug. Even
more bugs would be fixed if people submitted patches that fix them.
.hc
On Oct 14, 2006, at 1:58 PM, David Powers wrote:
First, let me say that I have got some things running really stable - ie. generative MIDI output, and Gem, once I upgraded to the experimental version, and modified some things in my patches, to get around limitations of that version.
However, my biggest problem with PD is still that things crash all the time, but nobody ever can say why, and I'm not sure if things are improving. Particularly, when working with digital audio, there seem to be some problems, as well as in the opening and closing, and modifying of files, generally. I'm not sure if this is a WinXP issue, or what - but I'm having such problems even with "core" PD, no externals added, just modifying Miller's example patches. The frustrating thing is, others don't seem to be able to replicate it, and sometimes even I can't replicate the error.
But still - unstable is unstable, and for a live performance or installation, that's a BIG problem. What am I to do if PD crashes in the middle of a 45 minutes piece with live musicians???
The end result is that I may be forced to use commercial software like Reaktor, when it would be nice to use something open source, and where I would be ready to share the results of my patches with the PD community.
~David
On 10/14/06, Adrian nordbaer@gmail.com wrote:
I'm sorry for this more like OT, it's just my thought about improving PD and it's externals in another way.
I'm struggling ...
PD is one of the best tools for making people learn/experiment/perform/interact digital/electronic art at it's
best. But where are the people that are PD's target. I'm trying to suggest that PD should try to follow a Popper-alike way of developing.
Make it easy accessable for the people and use their input. Except if PD and it's externals are purely egoistic developments, which i don't think is the case ;)
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
Looking at things from a more basic level, you can come up with a
more direct solution... It may sound small in theory, but it in
practice, it can change entire economies. - Amy Smith
On Oct 15, 2006, at 8:06 AM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, carmen wrote:
But still - unstable is unstable, and for a live performance or
installation, that's a BIG problem. What am I to do if PD crashes
in the middle of a 45 minutes piece with live musicians???keep a second PD instance on the ready, minimized?
It doesn't help when doing live patching unless you save all of the
time or you have auto-save (which is not implemented anywhere).
Actually, someone just posted a Pd object that does autosave.
.hc
However, in DesireData, if it crashes, the client stays open, and
is able to copy a patch to the clipboard, which can be pasted into
any other instance of DesireData. (however copy+paste is not 100%
implemented)_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC
Canada_______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three
meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds,
and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. - Martin
Luther King, Jr.
On Oct 15, 2006, at 2:16 PM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
Now just some suggestions (excuse me for being rude):
- Vastly improvement of the webcommunity, very important:
Except for a very good maillinglist there is no real source for a community for pd on the net. The forum at hurleur.com is a joke, and that the official site is deadland is just sad. Furthermore the site needs to be ordered and probably hardly overworked, there is nothing wrong in making it accesible to as many people as possible by runnig it in plone, but is it nessecary? The people accesing the site now will probably not need that the site is universible compatible with every last browser on this earth and history, etc.
feel free, to do the website in shockwave-flash or whatever you like. but before you do so: according to your email, the only problem with plone is, that it is accessible to as many people as possible. at
least, this is the only feature of plone you mentioned - apart from not necessarily bein necessary. so what is your point here?then i'd like to know, what you consider "deadland" (at least, there _is_ activity on this site)
last of all: somebody has to run the site. feel free to be the one. if it becomes a success, you will get a lot of joiners and probably a bit of honour.
It would be nice to see some more activity on the site. But I don't
think anyone is giving blame. There is only so much you can do.
Maybe there is a way to open up plone so that more people can share
the work of running the site and making it better?
From my point of view, Plone is too heavy and complicated for what
the Pd community needs. But its there, and switching to something
else would be a ton of work, so it makes sense to try to make the
best of what we got unless someone can really step up and take on the
whole website as a project.
.hc
http://at.or.at/hans/
On Oct 15, 2006, at 5:06 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, Adrian wrote:
Maybe i'm just frustrated about my own lack of skill. I was
fascinated about projects like pdp, gridflow and especially
desiredata. But installing them is a hell for me as a OS X user,
and the least i wanna do is search/install for all the necessary
things.Installing those programs on OSX is also a chore for me, but that's
mostly because I don't use OSX. I really don't have to. However, if
you care, you could make some effort in talking to OSX users that
are trying to make those things work. I've just received a mail
today, telling me a list of fixes to do about OSX for the new
makefile system which was introduced 7 months ago already.
It would be not hard to fix PDP and PiDiP to work with the nightly
builds, it just a matter of making the fixes and getting Tom Schouten
and Yves Degoyon to accept them and check them into CVS. The latter
is usually the harder part. Tom was until recently accepting a
number of fixes, then he disappeared again.
- Vastly improvement of the webcommunity, very important:
Except for a very good maillinglist there is no real source for a community for pd on the net. The forum at hurleur.com is a joke,
We don't need separate forums other than the mailing-list unless
those forums have different focuses than the main mailing-list. For
example, the pdmtl mailing-list is focused on French-speaking and/ or Montréal-based use of PureData.(I don't consider web-only forums to be worth anything more than
email-based forums, in most cases)
I think it would be good to have forums also. Many people don't want
to subscribe to mailing lists, but they would use a web forum. If
its easy to do, I think we should set up Plone forums and let that
stuff just happen.
and that the official site is deadland is just sad.
Which official site? Do you mean http://crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/ software.html or http://puredata.info/ ? I think that Hans is
already making quite a bit of effort to maintain the latter... What
do you want it to be?
IOhannes does a lot of work on the website too, probably more than
me. I do mostly the /dev/ and /docs/developer sections.
Furthermore the site needs to be ordered and probably hardly
overworked,"hardly overworked" is almost certainly two bad translations put
next to each other. (Maybe you should consult a dictionary.)there is nothing wrong in making it accesible to as many people as
possible by runnig it in plone, but is it nessecary?You want to prepare the terrain so that in the next email you may
suggest replacing Plone by your favourite content management
system; however you're doing a bad job of arguing against Plone,
especially because you're not arguing against it.
I have to say I am not a fan of Plone at all. It is heavy and
overcomplicated. But its there, so unless someone wants to setup and
maintain something else, then we should make the best of it.
The people accesing the site now will probably not need that the
site is universible compatible with every last browser on this
earth and history, etc.Yeah, like what do you mean by that? Why do you care that the site
is too compatible???
- And last, the documentation:
Order, Unifying, Improve
If you care, participate. There was a talk about the PureData
Documentation Project in Bergen, Norway, *today*, by Ben,
Alexandre, Darsha, Stéphanie and Koray. There are PDDP meetings
online as well, especially on IRC, but there hasn't been one since
last spring if I recall correctly.
We are starting them up again, look for announcements on the list. I
think Thursday afternoon Eastern Time, evening Europe time is going
to the time.
.hc
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
How about submitted this to the bug tracker with a description of the
problem, and all relevant versions and info?
.hc
On Oct 15, 2006, at 11:55 AM, Steffen Leve Poulsen wrote:
hi this crashes on XP vh/ Steffen
open-close-helpfiles.pd
#N canvas 381 0 564 283 12; #X obj 223 97 list split 1; #X obj 223 52 list append; #N canvas 0 0 1267 741 help-filelist 0; #X msg 115 -50 0-intro.pd acoustics-help.pd acoustics~-help.pd
adc~_dac~-help.pd append-help.pd bag-help.pd bang-help.pd bang~-help.pd biquad~-help.pd block~-help.pd bng-help.pd bp~-help.pd canvas-help.pd change-help.pd clip~-help.pd cos~-help.pd cpole~-help.pd cputime-help.pd
czero_rev~-help.pd czero~-help.pd declare-help.pd delay-help.pd delread~-help.pd
delwrite~-help.pd drawnumber-help.pd drawpolygon-help.pd element-help.pd env~-help.pd fft~-help.pd float-help.pd framp~-help.pd gatom-help.pd get-help.pd getsize-help.pd graph-help.pd hdial-help.pd help-intro.pd hip~-help.pd hslider-help.pd int-help.pd key-help.pd line-help.pd line~-help.pd list-help.pd lop~-help.pd makefilename-help.pd makenote-help.pd
math-help.pd message-help.pd metro.pd midi-help.pd moses-help.pd my_canvas-help.pd namecanvas-help.pd netreceive-help.pd netsend-help.pd noise~-help.pd numbox2-help.pd openpanel-help.pd operators-help.pd osc~-help.pd
otherbinops-help.pd pack-help.pd pd-help.pd phasor~-help.pd pipe-help.pd plot-help.pd
pointer-help.pd poly-help.pd print-help.pd print~-help.pd qlist-help.pd random-help.pd readsf~-help.pd realtime-help.pd receive-help.pd route-help.pd
rpole~-help.pd rsqrt~-help.pd rzero_rev~-help.pd rzero~-help.pd samphold~-help.pd savepanel-help.pd select-help.pd send-help.pd send~-help.pd set- help.pd setsize-help.pd sigbinops-help.pd sig~-help.pd snapshot~-help.pd
soundfiler-help.pd spigot-help.pd sqrt~-help.pd stripnote-help.pd struct-help.pd
sublist-help.pd swap-help.pd switch~-help.pd tabosc4~-help.pd tabplay~-help.pd
tabread-help.pd tabread4~-help.pd tabreceive~-help.pd tabsend~-help.pd tabwrite- help.pd tabwrite~-help.pd text-help.pd textfile-help.pd threshold~-help.pd throw~-help.pd timer-help.pd toggle-help.pd trigger-help.pd unpack- help.pd until-help.pd value-help.pd vcf~-help.pd vdial-help.pd vd~-help.pd vline~-help.pd vslider-help.pd vu-help.pd wrap~-help.pd writesf~- help.pd x_all_guis.pd; #X obj 115 565 outlet; #X text 278 -75 all files; #N canvas 20 0 677 364 bugs 0; #X msg 41 62 append-help.pd element-help.pd getsize-help.pd help- intro.pd ; #X msg 79 213 0-intro.pd setsize-help.pd; #X text 133 10 consecutive crashes:; #X text 88 182 sometimes: (after editing the patch , I think); #X msg 486 5 ; pd-bugs vis 0; #X restore 764 -73 pd bugs; #X obj 640 -72 r nobugs; #X obj 115 -77 r all; #X text 710 -72 : omit; #X msg 640 1 acoustics-help.pd acoustics~-help.pd adc~_dac~-help.pd bag-help.pd bang-help.pd bang~-help.pd biquad~-help.pd block~-help.pd bng-help.pd bp~-help.pd canvas-help.pd change-help.pd clip~-help.pd cos~-help.pd cpole~-help.pd cputime-help.pd czero_rev~-help.pd
czero~-help.pd declare-help.pd delay-help.pd delread~-help.pd delwrite~-help.pd
drawnumber-help.pd drawpolygon-help.pd env~-help.pd fft~-help.pd float-help.pd framp~- help.pd gatom-help.pd get-help.pd graph-help.pd hdial-help.pd hip~-help.pd hslider-help.pd int-help.pd key-help.pd line-help.pd line~-help.pd list-help.pd lop~-help.pd makefilename-help.pd makenote-help.pd
math-help.pd message-help.pd metro.pd midi-help.pd moses-help.pd my_canvas-help.pd namecanvas-help.pd netreceive-help.pd netsend-help.pd noise~-help.pd numbox2-help.pd openpanel-help.pd operators-help.pd osc~-help.pd
otherbinops-help.pd pack-help.pd pd-help.pd phasor~-help.pd pipe-help.pd plot-help.pd
pointer-help.pd poly-help.pd print-help.pd print~-help.pd qlist-help.pd random-help.pd readsf~-help.pd realtime-help.pd receive-help.pd route-help.pd
rpole~-help.pd rsqrt~-help.pd rzero_rev~-help.pd rzero~-help.pd samphold~-help.pd savepanel-help.pd select-help.pd send-help.pd send~-help.pd set- help.pd sigbinops-help.pd sig~-help.pd snapshot~-help.pd soundfiler-help.pd spigot-help.pd sqrt~-help.pd stripnote-help.pd struct-help.pd
sublist-help.pd swap-help.pd switch~-help.pd tabosc4~-help.pd tabplay~-help.pd
tabread-help.pd tabread4~-help.pd tabreceive~-help.pd tabsend~-help.pd tabwrite- help.pd tabwrite~-help.pd text-help.pd textfile-help.pd threshold~-help.pd throw~-help.pd timer-help.pd toggle-help.pd trigger-help.pd unpack- help.pd until-help.pd value-help.pd vcf~-help.pd vdial-help.pd vd~-help.pd vline~-help.pd vslider-help.pd vu-help.pd wrap~-help.pd writesf~- help.pd x_all_guis.pd; #X connect 0 0 1 0; #X connect 4 0 7 0; #X connect 5 0 0 0; #X connect 7 0 1 0; #X restore 223 17 pd help-filelist; #N canvas 0 0 632 412 openclose 0; #X obj 146 61 symbol; #X obj 138 311 symbol; #X obj 146 239 t b a; #X msg 146 92 $1 ; pd open $1 c:/programmer/pd/doc/5.reference ; ; #X obj 146 35 inlet; #X msg 138 341 ; pd-$1 menuclose 1 ; next bang; #X obj 205 239 r delay; #X obj 146 191 symbol; #X obj 130 272 del 500; #X connect 0 0 3 0; #X connect 1 0 5 0; #X connect 2 0 8 0; #X connect 2 1 1 1; #X connect 3 0 7 0; #X connect 4 0 0 0; #X connect 6 0 8 1; #X connect 7 0 2 0; #X connect 8 0 1 0; #X restore 223 181 pd openclose; #X obj 223 132 t a a; #X msg 6 93 ; delay 100 ; nobugs bang ;; #N canvas 0 0 462 312 feed 0; #X obj 60 33 r next; #X obj 60 59 del 500; #X obj 120 33 r delay; #X obj 30 215 outlet; #X obj 167 102 tgl 15 0 empty empty empty 17 7 0 10 -262144 -1 -1 1 1; #X obj 185 37 loadbang; #X obj 184 67 1; #X obj 96 163 spigot; #X connect 0 0 1 0; #X connect 1 0 7 0; #X connect 2 0 1 1; #X connect 4 0 7 1; #X connect 5 0 6 0; #X connect 6 0 4 0; #X connect 7 0 3 0; #X coords 0 -1 1 1 85 19 1 100 100; #X restore 129 17 pd feed; #N canvas 0 0 470 320 log 0; #X obj 96 240 textfile; #X msg 96 214 add $1 , write pd-testlog.txt; #X obj 163 105 tgl 15 0 empty empty empty 17 7 0 10 -262144 -1 -1 1 1; #X obj 181 70 loadbang; #X obj 184 97 1; #X obj 96 163 spigot; #X obj 73 131 inlet; #X obj 228 123 r nobugs; #X obj 228 150 f; #X obj 259 151 + 1; #X obj 96 189 pack s f; #X connect 1 0 0 0; #X connect 2 0 5 1; #X connect 3 0 4 0; #X connect 4 0 2 0; #X connect 5 0 10 0; #X connect 6 0 5 0; #X connect 7 0 8 0; #X connect 8 0 9 0; #X connect 8 0 10 1; #X connect 9 0 8 1; #X connect 10 0 1 0; #X coords 0 -1 1 1 85 25 1 100 100; #X restore 374 152 pd log; #X text 132 210 <-crash; #X msg 40 210 ; all bang ;; #X msg 7 49 ; nobugs bang ;; #X msg 7 6 ; pd-bugs vis 1 ;; #X msg 344 94 ; nobugs bang ;; #X connect 0 0 4 0; #X connect 0 1 1 1; #X connect 0 2 12 0; #X connect 1 0 0 0; #X connect 2 0 1 0; #X connect 4 0 3 0; #X connect 4 1 7 0;#X connect 6 0 1 0;
At 05:07 15-10-2006, you wrote:
Well, what I need is a simple patch that crashes reliably on XP,
preferably with Pd 0.40-1. (I think test5 had another crash bug that I
tracked down only after several days...)cheers Miller On Sun, Oct 15, 2006 at 03:34:10AM +0200, Steffen Leve Poulsen wrote:
hi, Pd version 0.40-0test05 on XP no externals just a lot of abstrations. I have some crash, if you need help debugging. What are you looking for?
nb It's not difficult to fry XP with cpu intensive stuff. mvh/ Steffen
At 01:29 15-10-2006, you wrote:
Well, I managed to crash 0.40-0 once on XP, although I can't
replicate
the problem... my plan is to make a patch that automatically
opens and
closes patches adn other files repeatedly to see if that can
engender
crashes. It's been pretty tough to debug things like that on
XP (the last
such problem went away when I used the debugger). However,
0.39 ended
up getting updated twice before it was exactly right (0.39-2)
and perhaps
the same will end up happening with 0.40...
cheers Miller
On Sat, Oct 14, 2006 at 12:58:22PM -0500, David Powers wrote:
First, let me say that I have got some things running really
stable -
ie. generative MIDI output, and Gem, once I upgraded to the experimental version, and modified some things in my patches,
to get
around limitations of that version.
However, my biggest problem with PD is still that things
crash all the
time, but nobody ever can say why, and I'm not sure if things
are
improving. Particularly, when working with digital audio,
there seem
to be some problems, as well as in the opening and closing, and modifying of files, generally. I'm not sure if this is a
WinXP issue,
or what - but I'm having such problems even with "core" PD, no externals added, just modifying Miller's example patches. The frustrating thing is, others don't seem to be able to
replicate it,
and sometimes even I can't replicate the error.
But still - unstable is unstable, and for a live performance or installation, that's a BIG problem. What am I to do if PD
crashes in
the middle of a 45 minutes piece with live musicians???
The end result is that I may be forced to use commercial
software like
Reaktor, when it would be nice to use something open source,
and where
I would be ready to share the results of my patches with the PD community.
~David
On 10/14/06, Adrian nordbaer@gmail.com wrote:
I'm sorry for this more like OT, it's just my thought about
improving
PD and it's externals in another way.
I'm struggling ...
PD is one of the best tools for making people learn/experiment/perform/interact digital/electronic art at
it's best.
But where are the people that are PD's target. I'm trying to
suggest
that PD should try to follow a Popper-alike way of
developing. Make it
easy accessable for the people and use their input. Except
if PD and
it's externals are purely egoistic developments, which i
don't think
is the case ;)
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http://at.or.at/hans/
If you want to take ownership over a section of the website, add
yourself to the pdweb list and make a proposal. I am sure that you
would be accepted, the more the merrier.
.hc
On Oct 16, 2006, at 6:48 AM, Pete Hindle wrote:
Okay, so Adrian might not have put his concerns in the best way,
but I think that we shouldn't discount what he's saying.For instance, the website puredata.info could use some sprucing
up. I don't have any CMS axe to grind, but it would be nice if the
front page was less technobabble and more advertisement for PD. It
would also be nice to have the different downloads explained - the
download page has links to two different versions, Puckette's .39
and extended version .38.4. If you were new to Pure Data, which
one would you go for? Perhaps you might want some advice on which
one to download?The puredata.info website does not truly represent what could be
done with the internet resources, and injecting a little PR/ marketing would not be a bad thing. For those not familiar with
it, take a look at the Processing.org webpage - another open-source
project, with a webpage that really spells out the things that can
be done with that language. For many people - myself included - ,
the puredata.info webpage is an important first call as they start
to learn PD, and making it more accessible would only benefit the
community in the long run.Pete
On 15 Oct 2006, at 22:06, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, Adrian wrote:
Maybe i'm just frustrated about my own lack of skill. I was
fascinated about projects like pdp, gridflow and especially
desiredata. But installing them is a hell for me as a OS X user,
and the least i wanna do is search/install for all the necessary
things.Installing those programs on OSX is also a chore for me, but
that's mostly because I don't use OSX. I really don't have to.
However, if you care, you could make some effort in talking to OSX
users that are trying to make those things work. I've just
received a mail today, telling me a list of fixes to do about OSX
for the new makefile system which was introduced 7 months ago
already.
- Vastly improvement of the webcommunity, very important:
Except for a very good maillinglist there is no real source for a community for pd on the net. The forum at hurleur.com is a joke,
We don't need separate forums other than the mailing-list unless
those forums have different focuses than the main mailing-list.
For example, the pdmtl mailing-list is focused on French-speaking
and/or Montréal-based use of PureData.(I don't consider web-only forums to be worth anything more than
email-based forums, in most cases)and that the official site is deadland is just sad.
Which official site? Do you mean http://crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/ software.html or http://puredata.info/ ? I think that Hans is
already making quite a bit of effort to maintain the latter...
What do you want it to be?Furthermore the site needs to be ordered and probably hardly
overworked,"hardly overworked" is almost certainly two bad translations put
next to each other. (Maybe you should consult a dictionary.)there is nothing wrong in making it accesible to as many people
as possible by runnig it in plone, but is it nessecary?You want to prepare the terrain so that in the next email you may
suggest replacing Plone by your favourite content management
system; however you're doing a bad job of arguing against Plone,
especially because you're not arguing against it.The people accesing the site now will probably not need that the
site is universible compatible with every last browser on this
earth and history, etc.Yeah, like what do you mean by that? Why do you care that the site
is too compatible???
- And last, the documentation:
Order, Unifying, Improve
If you care, participate. There was a talk about the PureData
Documentation Project in Bergen, Norway, *today*, by Ben,
Alexandre, Darsha, Stéphanie and Koray. There are PDDP meetings
online as well, especially on IRC, but there hasn't been one since
last spring if I recall correctly._ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC
Canada_______________________________________________ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
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http://at.or.at/hans/
Not to discount this discussion, but we have a lot of discussion,
what we need it more work done. That usually why things are the way
things are: nobody's done the work. Its not too often that people
want things in some fucked up way.
.hc
On Oct 16, 2006, at 9:33 AM, Pete Hindle wrote:
I thought I'd chip in on this discussion as a low-level user,
because the discussion had drifted away into technical discussions
about crashes on various platforms.Where I live there is a community-led cinema starting up, and in
order to function they've split up organisation into different
groups. There is the planning group, the bar staff group, the
marketing group, etc. Perhaps the PD community could do something
similar, and by doing a little bit of organisation make these big
jobs into something more manageable. Personally, I don't think I
know enough about PD to take on the job of re-editing the homepage
- my point was that PD could present a friendlier face to the
world. What that face should look like has to be decided by more
than one person.Pete
On 16 Oct 2006, at 14:12, jjjs wrote:
hi
On 10/16/06, Pete Hindle petehindle@gmx.co.uk wrote:
For instance, the website puredata.info could use some sprucing up. I don't have any CMS axe to grind, but it would be nice if the front page was less technobabble and more advertisement for PD.
well, there seems to be some misunderstanding about open source
projects.there is no army of HTML designers ready to do this redesign. pretty much everything associated with pd was done because somebody gave their time to do it.
so, *you* could do it [prolly involves work], but there's no one else who's going to pick it up. it's not like apple [ipod-land], where people are paid to do this kinda work. it's a community based
project- uneven and irregular [like communities are].-- \js [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ]
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
On Oct 16, 2006, at 9:12 AM, jjjs wrote:
hi
On 10/16/06, Pete Hindle petehindle@gmx.co.uk wrote:
For instance, the website puredata.info could use some sprucing up. I don't have any CMS axe to grind, but it would be nice if the front page was less technobabble and more advertisement for PD.
well, there seems to be some misunderstanding about open source
projects.there is no army of HTML designers ready to do this redesign. pretty much everything associated with pd was done because somebody gave their time to do it.
so, *you* could do it [prolly involves work], but there's no one else who's going to pick it up. it's not like apple [ipod-land], where people are paid to do this kinda work. it's a community based project- uneven and irregular [like communities are].
I second that. But people could be paid to do this work if people
gave other people money to do the work. That's how my Pd-extended
distros started: people paid me to do it.
.hc
As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should be
glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and
this we should do freely and generously. - Benjamin Franklin
On Oct 17, 2006, at 2:15 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:
On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 08:07:24PM +0900, hard off wrote:
well, i think it's pretty intimidating to ask really basic questions on the list, but it doesn't seem so silly on the forum. i wish more users would go on there and just post questions and answers and patches.
the mailing list turns into a bit of a pissing contest sometimes. i think that gets a bit initimidating for new users. i don't think it
I think you have a really good point. How can we improve this situation and make the list friendlier?
Hehe, good luck with that one, we are a grumpy and stubborn group! I
think a forum would be more successful.
.hc
There is no way to peace, peace is the way. -A.J. Muste
On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 00:43 -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I think it would be good to have forums also. Many people don't want
to subscribe to mailing lists, but they would use a web forum. If
its easy to do, I think we should set up Plone forums and let that
stuff just happen.
i can't see your point here. first, why whould people want to use a forum rather than the mailinglist, if you can access much more people through the mailinglist? second, there is already a forum: http://puredata.hurleur.com/ , why to set up a new one? third, as i mentioned before, i do not endorse any separation of the community, when it is not absolutely necessary to have two channels.
roman
___________________________________________________________ Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I think you have a really good point. How can we improve this situation and make the list friendlier?
Hehe, good luck with that one, we are a grumpy and stubborn group! I
think a forum would be more successful.
The term "more sucessful" is open for interpretation. One thing that a forum would not be sucessful in would be to drag over me to use it a lot. I guess some others also don't like to use web based forums (IOhannes?). I just prefer writing mails in Vim and with Mutt over having to visit a website with a browser and then fight with HTML textareas. It's just too complicated for me.
Another difference between lists and forums is the push vs. pull nature: mailing lists get delivered to you, a forum has to be visited. That might be why some people are more annoyed by a mailing list in general: mails may unconciously be viewed as a nuisance because we all already get so many of them. Also in a web-forum threads are much more clearly devided and they are more anonymous. The famous "newbie" could even have a special "newbie-quesiton-account". Of course this is possible with mailing lists as well, but more work.
I guess the only real solution would be to have a mailing list software which doubles as a configurable forum - like the old mailing list to NNTP-news gateways.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
I agree with Frank, forums tend to rub me the wrong way. For one, they're always full of posts like this:
"lolz yah i like ur stuff itz trancey w a lil bbit of dnb... raz0r 10gHz Pentium V 20 Gb Ram Ableton Live 6.5 Plone Bidule reaktor 6 Virsyn Terra (blah blah blah more wankery here)"
I also really enjoy the push method for the info, since it allows me to decide how to arrange the data once it's sent (I prefer gmail's way of handling threads, personally). Maybe if more forums utilized rss feeds, I'd feel differently.
~Kyle
On 10/20/06, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I think you have a really good point. How can we improve this situation and make the list friendlier?
Hehe, good luck with that one, we are a grumpy and stubborn group! I think a forum would be more successful.
The term "more sucessful" is open for interpretation. One thing that a forum would not be sucessful in would be to drag over me to use it a lot. I guess some others also don't like to use web based forums (IOhannes?). I just prefer writing mails in Vim and with Mutt over having to visit a website with a browser and then fight with HTML textareas. It's just too complicated for me.
Another difference between lists and forums is the push vs. pull nature: mailing lists get delivered to you, a forum has to be visited. That might be why some people are more annoyed by a mailing list in general: mails may unconciously be viewed as a nuisance because we all already get so many of them. Also in a web-forum threads are much more clearly devided and they are more anonymous. The famous "newbie" could even have a special "newbie-quesiton-account". Of course this is possible with mailing lists as well, but more work.
I guess the only real solution would be to have a mailing list software which doubles as a configurable forum - like the old mailing list to NNTP-news gateways.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Frank's point is important:
- for existing users it may be a big hassle to change to a forum. And
to have a forum and a maillist is not the best solution especially when all the pros are in the maillist.
- the forum then at hurleur is a good place to upload patches & etc.
because there they are easier accesable for later. The pro for a forum is that you only need one registration to have access to all the discussion lines (dev, gem, announce, etc.).
On 10/20/06, Frank Barknecht fbar@footils.org wrote:
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I think you have a really good point. How can we improve this situation and make the list friendlier?
Hehe, good luck with that one, we are a grumpy and stubborn group! I think a forum would be more successful.
The term "more sucessful" is open for interpretation. One thing that a forum would not be sucessful in would be to drag over me to use it a lot. I guess some others also don't like to use web based forums (IOhannes?). I just prefer writing mails in Vim and with Mutt over having to visit a website with a browser and then fight with HTML textareas. It's just too complicated for me.
Another difference between lists and forums is the push vs. pull nature: mailing lists get delivered to you, a forum has to be visited. That might be why some people are more annoyed by a mailing list in general: mails may unconciously be viewed as a nuisance because we all already get so many of them. Also in a web-forum threads are much more clearly devided and they are more anonymous. The famous "newbie" could even have a special "newbie-quesiton-account". Of course this is possible with mailing lists as well, but more work.
I guess the only real solution would be to have a mailing list software which doubles as a configurable forum - like the old mailing list to NNTP-news gateways.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On 20/10/2006, at 18.34, Adrian wrote:
Frank's point is important:
- for existing users it may be a big hassle to change to a forum. And
to have a forum and a maillist is not the best solution especially when all the pros are in the maillist.
As i understand Mr Steiner it's not a matter of dragging the maillist
community to a web-forum, but rather that, of some people prefer web-
forums over mailliste, for what ever bizarre reason (in with Mr
Barknecht on this one), then let them; don't stop people from talking
anywhere they like, how they like.
As such, i also think a web-forum would be good for Pd.
Following that line - that right to talk anywhere etc. must be a
symmetric relation to make sense - i don't think there _have to_ be
link between any web-forum and these maillists.
Last, i agree with Mr Steiner for the same reasons, that i't would be
nice if that specific web-forum would move to puredata.info
On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 18:34 +0200, Adrian wrote:
Frank's point is important:
- for existing users it may be a big hassle to change to a forum. And
to have a forum and a maillist is not the best solution especially when all the pros are in the maillist.
- the forum then at hurleur is a good place to upload patches & etc.
because there they are easier accesable for later. The pro for a forum is that you only need one registration to have access to all the discussion lines (dev, gem, announce, etc.).
well, a forum is a good alternative for a mailinglist, if there is too much trafic on the list to follow the discussions ... however, the advantage of a forum is, that it's more attractive for users, who just want to post one or two questions, but don't want to read all mails of a mailinglist ...
cheers ... tim
-- tim@klingt.org ICQ: 96771783 http://www.mokabar.tk
Question: Then what is the purpose of this "experimental" music? Answer: No purposes. Sounds. John Cage
In my opinion, this would be nice, but is fairly unnecessary. What could be done is a prominent link on the main page that features the forum for new visitors to be aware of it.
And I wasn't totally dissing on forums in my previous post. I do think that they have a lot of value. I'd just rather have the new material come to me instead of browsing for it.
~Kyle
On 10/21/06, padawan12 padawan12@obiwannabe.co.uk wrote:
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 19:39:09 +0200 Steffen stffn@dibidut.dk wrote:
Last, i agree with Mr Steiner for the same reasons, that i't would be nice if that specific web-forum would move to puredata.info
Move the forum at hurleur.com onto puredata.info?
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On 21/10/2006, at 9.57, padawan12 wrote:
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 19:39:09 +0200 Steffen stffn@dibidut.dk wrote:
Last, i agree with Mr Steiner for the same reasons, that i't would be nice if that specific web-forum would move to puredata.info
Move the forum at hurleur.com onto puredata.info?
Yes. If there is willingness and if it's technical not much trouble
etc. It might be in the link-chain, but i for one didn't know of it
till recently, being closer related to puredata.info might bring more
web-forum interested Pd interested people there. Also gives the forum
some official-credits, or whatever it's called. It's only a suggestion.
Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
Maybe if more forums utilized rss feeds,
Thanks! I'll add it to my aggregator. Should have looked harder.
~Kyle
On 10/20/06, Claude Heiland-Allen claudiusmaximus@goto10.org wrote:
Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
Maybe if more forums utilized rss feeds,
On Oct 20, 2006, at 5:26 AM, Roman Haefeli wrote:
On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 00:43 -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I think it would be good to have forums also. Many people don't want to subscribe to mailing lists, but they would use a web forum. If its easy to do, I think we should set up Plone forums and let that stuff just happen.
i can't see your point here. first, why whould people want to use a forum rather than the mailinglist, if you can access much more people through the mailinglist?
Who am I to say that someone should use a forum or a mailing list?
Ideally, all outlets would be provided, and people will use what
suits them best.
second, there is already a forum: http://puredata.hurleur.com/ , why to set up a new one?
Yeah, I don't think we necessarily have to have a new one. I am fine
with that one.
third, as i mentioned before, i do not endorse any separation of
the community, when it is not absolutely necessary to have two
channels.
Again, who am I to say that someone should use a forum or a mailing
list?
.hc
As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should be
glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and
this we should do freely and generously. - Benjamin Franklin
On Oct 20, 2006, at 7:12 AM, Yves Degoyon wrote:
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Oct 15, 2006, at 5:06 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, Adrian wrote:
Maybe i'm just frustrated about my own lack of skill. I was
fascinated about projects like pdp, gridflow and especially
desiredata. But installing them is a hell for me as a OS X
user, and the least i wanna do is search/install for all the
necessary things.Installing those programs on OSX is also a chore for me, but
that's mostly because I don't use OSX. I really don't have to.
However, if you care, you could make some effort in talking to
OSX users that are trying to make those things work. I've just
received a mail today, telling me a list of fixes to do about
OSX for the new makefile system which was introduced 7 months
ago already.It would be not hard to fix PDP and PiDiP to work with the
nightly builds, it just a matter of making the fixes and getting
Tom Schouten and Yves Degoyon to accept them and check them into
CVS. The latter is usually the harder part. Tom was until
recently accepting a number of fixes, then he disappeared again.???
pidip hasn't had any changes or fixes since one year or so, so i dunno what you're talking about
That's what I am talking about. The CVS sources don't compile on Mac
OS X, or only with some skills I don't have, and that's been the
case for a year or so. Ideally, it would be part of the auto-build
system and Pd-extended packages. It is on GNU/Linux.
( except your boring discourse and your tons of useless messages )
Feel free to filter or ignore my boring discourse and tons of useless
messages.
.hc
http://at.or.at/hans/
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Oct 15, 2006, at 8:06 AM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
It doesn't help when doing live patching unless you save all of the time or you have auto-save (which is not implemented anywhere).
Actually, someone just posted a Pd object that does autosave.
Actually, I read pd-list, and I believe that the autosave abstraction was posted in answer to my mail about pd lacking autosave. Right?
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Roman Haefeli wrote:
On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 00:43 -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
i can't see your point here. first, why whould people want to use a forum rather than the mailinglist, if you can access much more people through the mailinglist?
Just because the web is the web and is equated with cool. Also many webforums have extensive facilities for making smileys that appear as icons. That's what's important.
That said, email programs are generally bad by not having a mode for displaying a thread of small emails on the same screen with a scrollbar; and email is generally bad because mailing-lists are full of people who not only do top-posting but also can't care about just quoting the part of the email that they're replying to. Top-posting is not much of a problem here, the problem is just the pollution by reams of pages that an email program wouldn't know how to summarize to you. Because of this it's easy to find a thread containing essentially 42 copies of the same email. Webboards may have less harmful defaults.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 19:39:09 +0200 Steffen stffn@dibidut.dk wrote:
Last, i agree with Mr Steiner for the same reasons, that i't would be
nice if that specific web-forum would move to puredata.info
Move the forum at hurleur.com onto puredata.info?
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 21:45:37 +0200 Steffen stffn@dibidut.dk wrote:
On 21/10/2006, at 9.57, padawan12 wrote:
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 19:39:09 +0200 Steffen stffn@dibidut.dk wrote:
Last, i agree with Mr Steiner for the same reasons, that i't would be nice if that specific web-forum would move to puredata.info
Move the forum at hurleur.com onto puredata.info?
Yes. If there is willingness and if it's technical not much trouble
etc. It might be in the link-chain, but i for one didn't know of it
till recently, being closer related to puredata.info might bring more
web-forum interested Pd interested people there. Also gives the forum
some official-credits, or whatever it's called. It's only a suggestion.
I found it through the webring some time ago. I think it's important to unify the scene through .info but not by incorporation, the diversity of community and server management is a strength, just add lots of official linkage into the bind. Pierre/Neko runs a good show and so do the other Pd related sites. My concern I expressed to Kyle is that there's not enough non-English news from the Pd tribes who don't always hang out in English speaking channels.
On Fri, Oct 20, 2006 at 11:44:15PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Roman Haefeli wrote:
On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 00:43 -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
i can't see your point here. first, why whould people want to use a forum rather than the mailinglist, if you can access much more people through the mailinglist?
Just because the web is the web and is equated with cool. Also many webforums have extensive facilities for making smileys that appear as icons. That's what's important.
What the heck people, is it neccesary to be interface snobs? I doubt that anyone uses forums because "the web is cool". They use forums because it's their preferred interface for communicating with others. My preferred interface is vi + mutt, but what's the point of dissing someone else because that's not their cup of tea?
The forum rules because it means more people getting into puredata, more community, and eventually better software for all of us. Don't like it? Don't use it.
Best,
Chris.
chris@mccormick.cx http://mccormick.cx
Hallo, Tim Blechmann hat gesagt: // Tim Blechmann wrote:
well, a forum is a good alternative for a mailinglist, if there is too much trafic on the list to follow the discussions ...
To me there's too much interestng traffic on the list to follow a web forum as well. ;)
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Chris McCormick wrote:
On Fri, Oct 20, 2006 at 11:44:15PM -0400, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Just because the web is the web and is equated with cool. Also many webforums have extensive facilities for making smileys that appear as icons. That's what's important.
What the heck people, is it neccesary to be interface snobs? I doubt that anyone uses forums because "the web is cool". They use forums because it's their preferred interface for communicating with others.
Alright, now what's the reason that they prefer the interface of web-based forums over the one of email-based forums? (btw the web doesn't have exclusivity on the word "forum"). What about asking people who don't think that "because the web is cool" is an insult?
That said, my other paragraph was a lot more insightful and a lot less incendiary: what if webboards were optimal for the case when one doesn't need to do interleaved quoting? I say that from experience of spending "too much time" reading SlashDot.
Let me say also that one nice thing in Slashdot is the scoring-and-filter feature. I say that only from the perspective of a reader, I hardly ever wrote on SlashDot. However, this feature is only useful to allow a webboard to scale up well.
The forum rules because it means more people getting into puredata, more community, and eventually better software for all of us. Don't like it? Don't use it.
Just because I'm a snob doesn't mean that I think that webboards about pd are embarassing or should be banned. I'm not that kind of person.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, padawan12 wrote:
My concern I expressed to Kyle is that there's not enough non-English news from the Pd tribes who don't always hang out in English speaking channels.
There's a sizeable fraction of the subscribers of the PureData Montréal mailing-list who are not in Montréal and a lot of them who have never been in Montréal. For many people, that mailing-list is there, because there's no other mainly-French-speaking mailing-list for PureData in the world. (That mailing-list has 145 subscribers and still growing)
Are there any German-speaking mailing-lists for PureData? (I'm not aware of any.)
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Georg Holzmann wrote:
Are there any German-speaking mailing-lists for PureData? (I'm not aware of any.)
yes, the pd-graz list !
ah, I finally found it, at http://lists.mur.at/mailman/listinfo/pd-graz. But there's only 29 subscribers. Is there a bigger list?
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Hallo!
ah, I finally found it, at http://lists.mur.at/mailman/listinfo/pd-graz. But there's only 29 subscribers. Is there a bigger list?
Not that I know - and the pd-graz list is also not thought as a general discussion about pd - it's mainly about organisational things ...
LG Georg
Frank Barknecht schrieb:
Hallo, Tim Blechmann hat gesagt: // Tim Blechmann wrote:
well, a forum is a good alternative for a mailinglist, if there is too much trafic on the list to follow the discussions ...
To me there's too much interestng traffic on the list to follow a web forum as well. ;)
Ciao
would it be possible and if, would it be a good idea to forward forum entries to the mailing list? in the best case with individual settings: 1 forward all messages, 2 forward only messages to my posting.
marius.
On Sat, 2006-10-21 at 12:57 +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Tim Blechmann hat gesagt: // Tim Blechmann wrote:
well, a forum is a good alternative for a mailinglist, if there is too much trafic on the list to follow the discussions ...
To me there's too much interestng traffic on the list to follow a web forum as well. ;)
i don't consider the pd-list as a high traffic list, nor is pd a large project. i guess, you won't be able to read _all_ mails, if there would be +1000 mails per day, unless you want to spent all your time on reading mails ... :)
t
-- tim@klingt.org ICQ: 96771783 http://www.mokabar.tk
The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly you discover that there is no reason. John Cage.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Oct 15, 2006, at 5:06 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, Adrian wrote:
Maybe i'm just frustrated about my own lack of skill. I was
fascinated about projects like pdp, gridflow and especially
desiredata. But installing them is a hell for me as a OS X user,
and the least i wanna do is search/install for all the necessary
things.Installing those programs on OSX is also a chore for me, but that's
mostly because I don't use OSX. I really don't have to. However, if
you care, you could make some effort in talking to OSX users that
are trying to make those things work. I've just received a mail
today, telling me a list of fixes to do about OSX for the new
makefile system which was introduced 7 months ago already.It would be not hard to fix PDP and PiDiP to work with the nightly
builds, it just a matter of making the fixes and getting Tom Schouten
and Yves Degoyon to accept them and check them into CVS. The latter
is usually the harder part. Tom was until recently accepting a
number of fixes, then he disappeared again.
???
pidip hasn't had any changes or fixes since one year or so, so i dunno what you're talking about ( except your boring discourse and your tons of useless messages )
do svidaniya, sevy
Is the pdweb maillist alive anyway?
As i see it; the people who want to change and are willing to invest, have to gather and work on the website. Put together what to redo and in what way and work these things out, send the stuff to the responsible people and ask for permission to do the changes.
If forum integrated or not and what to choose will stay individual, everybody has his preferences and there is no harm in that.
About an easier access to the projects, less skilled users just have to wait it seems. I for myself don't want to disturb the grumpy ones more then necessary.
And please, some of you should just show a bit more humor, what a hard way of living - i couldn't.
On 10/21/06, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:
On Oct 20, 2006, at 7:12 AM, Yves Degoyon wrote:
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Oct 15, 2006, at 5:06 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, Adrian wrote:
Maybe i'm just frustrated about my own lack of skill. I was fascinated about projects like pdp, gridflow and especially desiredata. But installing them is a hell for me as a OS X user, and the least i wanna do is search/install for all the necessary things.
Installing those programs on OSX is also a chore for me, but that's mostly because I don't use OSX. I really don't have to. However, if you care, you could make some effort in talking to OSX users that are trying to make those things work. I've just received a mail today, telling me a list of fixes to do about OSX for the new makefile system which was introduced 7 months ago already.
It would be not hard to fix PDP and PiDiP to work with the nightly builds, it just a matter of making the fixes and getting Tom Schouten and Yves Degoyon to accept them and check them into CVS. The latter is usually the harder part. Tom was until recently accepting a number of fixes, then he disappeared again.
???
pidip hasn't had any changes or fixes since one year or so, so i dunno what you're talking about
That's what I am talking about. The CVS sources don't compile on Mac OS X, or only with some skills I don't have, and that's been the case for a year or so. Ideally, it would be part of the auto-build system and Pd-extended packages. It is on GNU/Linux.
( except your boring discourse and your tons of useless messages )
Feel free to filter or ignore my boring discourse and tons of useless messages.
.hc
http://at.or.at/hans/
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, Pete Hindle wrote:
For instance, the website puredata.info could use some sprucing up. I don't have any CMS axe to grind, but it would be nice if the front page was less technobabble and more advertisement for PD.
IMHO the history of the software should be separated, as a page labeled "History".
The opposition between object classes and patches, and the equating of patches and abstractions, is bad wording. What I teach, is that object classes are either externals or abstractions, and that not all patches are abstractions. I teach this because that's what's most consistent with both the source code of pd and the wording used in other programming languages.
The frontpage should also not suggest that Pd is usable on "old" macs... or should state what kind of old... is that a G3 or a MacPlus? ;-) (I mean that we shouldn't give people too much expectations about the native Tcl/Tk 8.4 of OSX).
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, Adrian wrote:
But thank you Mathieu for bringing up OS X, i understand now that this is probably the core of my problems. I will try to fix a linux here and look how it goes.
The following day, I was talking to Koray Tahiroglu and he asked me some help building on OSX on his computer (that's the only time of the year that we're not 7000 km apart, you see). Then he sent me a list of the changes that I made on his computer. I will integrate them to GridFlow very soon.
For now we have at least someone who try DesireData on OSX once in a while, and I believe that the chances that no-one is involved with DesireData-OSX will go closer to nil once it gets polished enough to be usable.
GridFlow-OSX has the problem that it has no support for cameras.
The PureData workshop of Vidéographe included a Linux training of 15 hours this year, due to the fact that Linux is the best OS for running PureData, and that several artist-run centres are getting keen on the free software concept, including Vidéographe. This is different than last year, when the equivalent workshop involved mostly OSX.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Installing those programs on OSX is also a chore for me, but that's mostly because I don't use OSX. I really don't have to. However, if you care, you could make some effort in talking to OSX users that are trying to make those things work. I've just received a mail today, telling me a list of fixes to do about OSX for the new makefile system which was introduced 7 months ago already.
I didn't want this to sound like no-one else ever helps me about GridFlow-OSX, just that there is not enough work being done on it. But then I'm not even doing enough work on GridFlow-Linux already.
I write about that because someone is concerned that I might be meaning that no-one did anything at all about GridFlow-OSX since last winter.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Oct 20, 2006, at 7:12 AM, Yves Degoyon wrote:
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Oct 15, 2006, at 5:06 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, Adrian wrote:
Maybe i'm just frustrated about my own lack of skill. I was fascinated about projects like pdp, gridflow and especially desiredata. But installing them is a hell for me as a OS X user, and the least i wanna do is search/install for all the necessary things.
Installing those programs on OSX is also a chore for me, but that's mostly because I don't use OSX. I really don't have to. However, if you care, you could make some effort in talking to OSX users that are trying to make those things work. I've just received a mail today, telling me a list of fixes to do about OSX for the new makefile system which was introduced 7 months ago already.
It would be not hard to fix PDP and PiDiP to work with the nightly builds, it just a matter of making the fixes and getting Tom Schouten and Yves Degoyon to accept them and check them into CVS. The latter is usually the harder part. Tom was until recently accepting a number of fixes, then he disappeared again.
???
pidip hasn't had any changes or fixes since one year or so, so i dunno what you're talking about
That's what I am talking about. The CVS sources don't compile on Mac OS X, or only with some skills I don't have, and that's been the case for a year or so. Ideally, it would be part of the auto-build system and Pd-extended packages. It is on GNU/Linux.
so what if i don't have a MAC OSX system at hand? i built it once on mac, ( the makefile i used then is there : http://tdegoyon.free.fr/pdp_pidip_osx.tar.gz )
but, anyway, everything changed in makefiles for OSX, so, if you want it, help yourself..
salut!, sevy
( except your boring discourse and your tons of useless messages )
Feel free to filter or ignore my boring discourse and tons of useless messages.
.hc
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Oct 23, 2006, at 4:58 AM, Yves Degoyon wrote:
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Oct 20, 2006, at 7:12 AM, Yves Degoyon wrote:
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Oct 15, 2006, at 5:06 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, Adrian wrote:
Maybe i'm just frustrated about my own lack of skill. I was
fascinated about projects like pdp, gridflow and especially
desiredata. But installing them is a hell for me as a OS X
user, and the least i wanna do is search/install for all the
necessary things.Installing those programs on OSX is also a chore for me, but
that's mostly because I don't use OSX. I really don't have to.
However, if you care, you could make some effort in talking to
OSX users that are trying to make those things work. I've just
received a mail today, telling me a list of fixes to do about
OSX for the new makefile system which was introduced 7 months
ago already.It would be not hard to fix PDP and PiDiP to work with the
nightly builds, it just a matter of making the fixes and getting
Tom Schouten and Yves Degoyon to accept them and check them into
CVS. The latter is usually the harder part. Tom was until
recently accepting a number of fixes, then he disappeared again.???
pidip hasn't had any changes or fixes since one year or so, so i dunno what you're talking about
That's what I am talking about. The CVS sources don't compile on
Mac OS X, or only with some skills I don't have, and that's been
the case for a year or so. Ideally, it would be part of the auto- build system and Pd-extended packages. It is on GNU/Linux.so what if i don't have a MAC OSX system at hand? i built it once on mac, ( the makefile i used then is there : http://tdegoyon.free.fr/pdp_pidip_osx.tar.gz )
but, anyway, everything changed in makefiles for OSX, so, if you want it, help yourself..
I don't know if you've followed it, but there are now two Mac OS X
systems, as well as many others, building Pd from source every night
and reporting errors to pd-cvs.
http://autobuild.puredata.info/auto-build/
If you are willing to include the changes to make PiDiP build on Mac
OS X, you wouldn't even have to do the builds yourself, it would just
happen automagically.
.hc
salut!, sevy
( except your boring discourse and your tons of useless messages )
Feel free to filter or ignore my boring discourse and tons of
useless messages..hc
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
Looking at things from a more basic level, you can come up with a
more direct solution... It may sound small in theory, but it in
practice, it can change entire economies. - Amy Smith
Am 21.10.2006 um 16:32 schrieb Marius Schebella:
Frank Barknecht schrieb:
Hallo, Tim Blechmann hat gesagt: // Tim Blechmann wrote:
well, a forum is a good alternative for a mailinglist, if there
is too much trafic on the list to follow the discussions ...To me there's too much interestng traffic on the list to follow a web forum as well. ;) Ciao
would it be possible and if, would it be a good idea to forward
forum entries to the mailing list? in the best case with individual settings: 1 forward all messages,
2 forward only messages to my posting.
please allow me to continue this thread from 2006:
interesting is that some company in SF found a way to combine forum
and mailinglist in one, leaving it to the user to decide how to
interact with the machine.
max
http://www.cycling74.com/forums/index.php http://www.cycling74.com/mailman/listinfo/maxmsp
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\js -
Adrian -
carmen -
chris clepper -
Chris McCormick -
Claude Heiland-Allen -
David Powers -
Frank Barknecht -
Georg Holzmann -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
hard off -
IOhannes m zmoelnig -
Kyle Klipowicz -
Marius Schebella -
Mathieu Bouchard -
Max -
Miller Puckette -
padawan12 -
Pete Hindle -
Roman Haefeli -
Steffen -
Steffen Leve Poulsen -
Tim Blechmann -
Yves Degoyon