Zitat von zack zack@sat.qc.ca:
On my AMD dual-core 64bit (linux) running pd, recently checked out of the CVS:
It looks like tabread misses (returns 0 for) every other (odd) array value when reading the contents of an array --- UNLESS the contents
was set using tabwrite, in which case, the data is there-- as if the
reader was indexing with a 32 bit-size increment...
this is a long known issue (quite as long as there are amd64 computers out there)
however, nobody has found time yet to fix it (the fix is not trivial). if you don't want to fix it yourself but need this feature, i see only 2 possibilities: a) make a amd64 available to mr.puckette (lend him one, buy him one,...) b) fund some developer who already has an amd64 but never had the time to fix the tables.
the 2 other solutions are to run pd in 32bit mode (i never found any real speed gains in any application when running in 64bit - but of course it is cooler) OR rethink whether you really cannot do without tables for now (i have been living with pd on x86_64 for >6 month now and it seems like i never really needed the tables. but then it is just my laptop which i hardly ever use) all the best.
mfg.asdr. IOhannes
Thanks much for the quick reply ---
I am short on time too, especially since I would have spend a lot
of time just understanding how things work, before making a good
change.
For the moment, I can get by with the ugly fix I made to the
accessor methods (read/write) for tabread / tabwrite and
tab4read --- I did not touch the "tilde" objs, since I haven't
heard anything "off" (yet ?) --- if you know off hand what the
other affected objects are, or could be , could you tell me so I
could do the same to them --
thanks
Zack
On 23-Mar-06, at 5:13 PM, zmoelnig@iem.at wrote:
Zitat von zack zack@sat.qc.ca:
On my AMD dual-core 64bit (linux) running pd, recently checked out
of the CVS:It looks like tabread misses (returns 0 for) every other (odd)
array value when reading the contents of an array --- UNLESS the
contents was set using tabwrite, in which case, the data is
there-- as if the reader was indexing with a 32 bit-size
increment...this is a long known issue (quite as long as there are amd64
computers out there)however, nobody has found time yet to fix it (the fix is not trivial). if you don't want to fix it yourself but need this feature, i see
only 2 possibilities: a) make a amd64 available to mr.puckette (lend him one, buy him
one,...) b) fund some developer who already has an amd64 but never had the
time to fix the tables.the 2 other solutions are to run pd in 32bit mode (i never found
any real speed gains in any application when running in 64bit - but
of course it is cooler) OR rethink whether you really cannot do
without tables for now (i have been living with pd on x86_64 for >6
month now and it seems like i never really needed the tables. but
then it is just my laptop which i hardly ever use) all the best.mfg.asdr. IOhannes
<mime-attachment>
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 zmoelnig@iem.at wrote:
however, nobody has found time yet to fix it (the fix is not trivial). if you don't want to fix it yourself but need this feature, i see only 2 possibilities: a) make a amd64 available to mr.puckette (lend him one, buy him one,...) b) fund some developer who already has an amd64 but never had the time to fix the tables.
Well, I was going to do it, but we figured out that 64-bit wasn't worth
the trouble yet. It's not that much worth it until standard PCs ship with
well over 4G RAM. Apparently there are other advantages to the 64-bit
mode, but I've not witnessed any difference with the programs that I use.
And then many programs' RAM usage might nearly double, especially programs
that use lots of pointers.
If someone hires me to do it, I'll do it.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Well, I was going to do it, but we figured out that 64-bit wasn't worth the trouble yet. It's not that much worth it until standard PCs ship with well over 4G RAM.
Ron Kuper sez 'no'... http://www.cakewalk.com/x64/whitepaper.asp
" the CPU has twice the general purpose registers and twice the floating point unit (FPU) registers, compared to x86 processors. And each general purpose register is also twice as wide, 64 bits instead of 32 bits."
"For a specific example of why this matters, consider a digital equalizer. The math involved in computing equalization usually involves a processing element known as a "biquad". A biquad is a small code fragment that manipulates 8 numeric values in a series of additions and multiplications. The x86 floating point unit has a total of 8 registers, so even something as simple as 1 biquad will use up all of its registers. "
Apparently there are other advantages to the 64-bit mode, but I've not witnessed any difference with the programs that I use.
And then many programs' RAM usage might nearly double, especially programs that use lots of pointers
it is almost 2x, from what i recall, but having finally replaced the last Celeron here with a Sempron64, i can't double check..
The bad thing about 64 bit computing is that 64-bit programs tend to use more memory bandwidth than 32-bit ones, so that you would expect a processor to spend more time waiting for memory in 64 bit mode than 32. This could easily outweigh the register-count advantage of AMD64 in running Pd. I'm planning to get an AMD64 box in another month or so and should know more then... given the high prices of 64 bit machines, it might be smary to wait until we can get an actual speed comparison before spending the dough.
cheers Miller
On Sat, Mar 25, 2006 at 07:59:24AM +0000, carmen wrote:
Well, I was going to do it, but we figured out that 64-bit wasn't worth the trouble yet. It's not that much worth it until standard PCs ship with well over 4G RAM.
Ron Kuper sez 'no'... http://www.cakewalk.com/x64/whitepaper.asp
" the CPU has twice the general purpose registers and twice the floating point unit (FPU) registers, compared to x86 processors. And each general purpose register is also twice as wide, 64 bits instead of 32 bits."
"For a specific example of why this matters, consider a digital equalizer. The math involved in computing equalization usually involves a processing element known as a "biquad". A biquad is a small code fragment that manipulates 8 numeric values in a series of additions and multiplications. The x86 floating point unit has a total of 8 registers, so even something as simple as 1 biquad will use up all of its registers. "
Apparently there are other advantages to the 64-bit mode, but I've not witnessed any difference with the programs that I use.
And then many programs' RAM usage might nearly double, especially programs that use lots of pointersit is almost 2x, from what i recall, but having finally replaced the last Celeron here with a Sempron64, i can't double check..
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Hi Miller and List,
I can't resist asking (sorry if this is beating a dead horse) but...
I'm seriously considering building an AMD64 box for other purposes
(e.g. cinelerra).
Given that, would it make sense to have two partitions?
One running Linux 64 bit (when using cinelerra) and the other a Linux
32 bit for Pd, Gem, etc.?
Or are the concerns expressed below based on the processor more than
the OS?
Thanks, p
On Mar 25, 2006, at 1:53 PM, Miller Puckette wrote:
The bad thing about 64 bit computing is that 64-bit programs tend to use more memory bandwidth than 32-bit ones, so that you would expect a processor to spend more time waiting for memory in 64 bit mode than 32. This could easily outweigh the register-count advantage of AMD64 in running Pd. I'm planning to get an AMD64 box in another month
or so and should know more then... given the high prices of 64 bit machines, it might be smary to wait until we can get an actual speed comparison before spending the dough.cheers Miller
On Sat, Mar 25, 2006 at 07:59:24AM +0000, carmen wrote:
Well, I was going to do it, but we figured out that 64-bit wasn't
worth the trouble yet. It's not that much worth it until standard PCs
ship with well over 4G RAM.Ron Kuper sez 'no'... http://www.cakewalk.com/x64/whitepaper.asp
" the CPU has twice the general purpose registers and twice the
floating point unit (FPU) registers, compared to x86 processors.
And each general purpose register is also twice as wide, 64 bits
instead of 32 bits.""For a specific example of why this matters, consider a digital
equalizer. The math involved in computing equalization usually
involves a processing element known as a "biquad". A biquad is a
small code fragment that manipulates 8 numeric values in a series
of additions and multiplications. The x86 floating point unit has
a total of 8 registers, so even something as simple as 1 biquad
will use up all of its registers. "Apparently there are other advantages to the 64-bit mode, but I've not witnessed any difference with the programs
that I use. And then many programs' RAM usage might nearly double, especially
programs that use lots of pointersit is almost 2x, from what i recall, but having finally replaced
the last Celeron here with a Sempron64, i can't double check..
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
hi. i stripped this mail down a bit, since i already have the whole thread in my mailbox and don't need it double, and triple and ...
Paris Treantafeles wrote:
Hi Miller and List,
I can't resist asking (sorry if this is beating a dead horse) but... I'm seriously considering building an AMD64 box for other purposes (e.g. cinelerra). Given that, would it make sense to have two partitions?
on most systems it makes sense to set up your OS on more than 1 partitions (i have root, tmp, var, usr, home and swap) - and that is with just 1 single running OS.
One running Linux 64 bit (when using cinelerra) and the other a Linux 32 bit for Pd, Gem, etc.?
actually you can run 32bit applications while running 64bit linux using a chrooted environment (that provides the 32bit libs) ((my knowledge on this is a bit rusty - it might be that nowadays you don't even need a chroot and just have to do some ld-magic))
Or are the concerns expressed below based on the processor more than the OS?
the amd64 can run "as a" 32bit processor (in fact it is some hybrid between 64bit and 32bit processor). anyhow, as long as you are running in 32bit mode you will not experience any problems (which you won't experience on other 32bit processor :-))
mfg.adsr. IOhannes
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IOhannes m zmoelnig -
Mathieu Bouchard -
Miller Puckette -
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