Pd-list February 2012

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138 participants
172 discussions

second mouse as HID in pd/linux
by James Mckernon 12 Feb '12

12 Feb '12

Hi all, Crossposting this to the pure data mailing list and linux audio users as it concerns PD and the linux OS also. I'd like to be able to use a second mouse as an input device for controlling synthesis in Pure Data. (Well, actually, it's a trackball I'd like to use - much more fun, but I believe equivalent as far as the computer is concerned.) However, I am not aware of a way to connect a second mouse without the operating system treating it the same as the first mouse - i.e., having it control the cursor. The first, obvious disadvantage of this state of affairs is that my cursor would then be flying around the screen and probably clicking on all manner of disruptive, destructive things whenever I use the controller. The second, possibly more serious, disadvantage is that I believe the input would then be limited to the dimensions of the screen. For what I'd like to do, it's essential that I be able to continue to move infinitely in any direction, without being limited to the dimensions of an arbitrary frame. Is there a way to achieve this without the problems above? In other words, is it possible to get linux/X to ignore the mouse, and for PD to get the movement data straight from the device? (Is this a job for [hid]?) Any advice on either front would be appreciated. I am asking now as I would like to be certain that this is possible before I shell out £30 or so on the trackball. Thanks, all! James P.S. Bonus question: At some point in the future, I'd also like to attempt something similar with a second keyboard. If anyone can answer the question identical to the one above except with the work 'keyboard' substituted in for the word 'mouse', I'd be grateful for that too.

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Thoughts in conclusion of the 4th Pure Data Convention
by Max 12 Feb '12

12 Feb '12

Dear list and Pure Data community, I'd wanted to write this down since a few months now and finally had the chance to do so. To welcome you in Weimar and Berlin in August has been a great pleasure for us. The Pure Data community has proven to be a diverse, inspiring and very thankful audience. We were overwhelmed by the enthusiasm and professionalism and sometimes patience of performers and guests as well. It was the first time for most of the team to be involved in any kind of event of this scale. We have gained a tremendous amount of experience through hosting it. Those who have been to Weimar/Berlin for the convention will agree when I conclude that it was a great success. http://www.uni-weimar.de/medien/wiki/PDCON:Testimonials Never the less I'd like to take some time to critically assess the convention giving future hosts the opportunity to build up on our experience. CONFERENCE: Using the openconf system proved to be a choice that helped tremendously to structure and guide through the submission and paper review process. In fact I would try to use the same system for concerts and the exhibition as well. The peer review process is augmenting the quality of the papers and is giving the conference and publication a higher academic relevance. It seemed unfair to ask for finished papers to be reviewed (and possibly rejected) that's why we asked for extended abstracts for the review. It turned out to be hard for the reviewers to fully assess the relevance and quality of the paper from just reading the extended abstract. I now think that it would have been better to let the reviewer read the full papers. After all most of the papers – once written – may also be submitted to other conferences such as ICMC or Linux Audio. A bar-camp day could have complemented the more official conference part to give latest developments and impromptu idea-sharing its space. All though it was part of the plan we failed to provide a live-stream of the conference, partly because of our lack of know-how, limited resources in time and the inability of the institution to provide the necessary installations. At the forums and Q&A sessions an IRC chat or twitter hashtag projected could have improved audience participation. WORKSHOPS: In my opinion it has been a wise decision to organize most workshops on an open, registration-free basis. This saved us from managing registrations and I know from experience that it is frustrating having to exclude possible participants because of a full class when in the end some of the registered ones decide not to show up. That happens especially when participation is free of charge. The cooperation with the Bauhaus Summer School wasn't trivial in its execution but made sense organisational and financial. CONCERTS: It would have been impossible to endeavor in such a venture like the Pd-Convention without the support by the Studio for Electroacoustic Music. Consequently the concerts were very well organized and a real highlight of every day. It would have been much easier to organize though if the exact demands of the musicians would have been clear from the submission stage. Using a web-form or the openconf could have made that more straightforward. Making clear that the musician is responsible for everything until the specified mixer input for themselves would have made things clearer from the beginning. EXHIBITION: The exhibition was certainly the least prepared part simply because the venue was unclear just until two weeks prior to the event. Unfortunate was that the venue wasn't open at all times which happened due to misunderstandings and possibly not enough controlling. FUNDING: Getting the necessary funding was certainly the issue I personally spent the most time on. We had an overall budget of around 17.000 EUR. This doesn't take the value of things and services into account the university gave us for free, that is all the equipment and the lecture halls/concert venues and neither my own regular salary as employee of the university. Roughly 10k of the Budget came from different funds at the university and the ministry for economics and were bound to specific aspects of the convention. The rest was covered by the sponsors. That budget is less than a third of what the convention in Montréal had available. EXPENSES: We spent most of the budget supporting our participants. The biggest expense there was covering for the accomodation, followed by a contribution (around 100,- €) towards the travel expenses for the participating artists (those either performing or exhibiting). The accomodation costs turned out to be about 2500 Eur more expensive than necessary since we had to pay for those participants who reserved the hostel through the online sign-up and then decided neither to cancel nor to check in. The workshops were handled separately through the Bauhaus-Summer School. Further expenses were catering, printing, renting a car for transport and so forth. DEMOGRAPHICS: Frankly I've been a bit surprised that the average age wasn't a bit lower. This certainly has implications on how to accommodate the guests in the future (youth hostel, again?), but more importantly is to think about the future user-base if, and when yes: why Pd is deterring for newcomers. And here I'm hoping to get into a discussion (which we should have had at the convention) There are great programs out there who might make more sense to learn instead of Pd for certain kind of projects: Processing, Supercollider, OpenFrameworks. I was taught in university Programs like Freehand, QuarkXpress and Director, all more or less dead softwares today. In my role as a university educator I ask myself what makes the most sense to teach; what persists and where do the students learn concepts that will help them master other environments yet to come. The BSD License and Pd's open source community is making sure that it won't die because of a companies merger (like Freehand from the list above). Thinks like that IOhannes is practically the only overall dev for Gem aren't making it more comfortable. Yet I see that Pd meets for many of the young artists exactly that level of abstraction to be easily picked up while having the maximum amount of freedom in the creativity without the presets that could hinder your expression. Combine that with the real-time experience tweaking and tinkering until it works is ace. I personally find beauty in the dataflow paradigm which can be nicely put in context with cybernetic flowcharts of systems interconnected through input and output. When I find artist like Lukas Buschfeld presenting his prints printed by a custom large scale dot matrix printer which is programmed in and run by Pd entirely (plus a little Arduino) I'm stunned. Look at the prints: http://lucasbuschfeld.com/index.php?cat=graphic In an attempt to improve the first impression you get when checking out Pd I've been experimenting with vimeo gathering Pd based works in a group: http://vimeo.com/groups/puredata/ When you look at a few other OSS Audio related softwares i find their websites to be very clear and well structured http://musescore.org/ http://www.iannix.org/ http://ardour.org/ Now compare. It's a great ressource but plone can certainly look nerdy and cluttered: http://puredata.info/ In my classes I am shocked to see that the majority of the young students have trouble setting up their mail client in a way that they efficiently can use the mailinglist - if they know what a mail client is at all. Facebook seems to replace this more and more, but I'm strongly opposed to accepting that. The Pure Data group on Facebook is not what the Mailinglist is: http://www.facebook.com/groups/4729684494/ I think that a new kind of digital divide is happening silently between the now adolescent nerdy natives and the young instant-web-app-social-connectedness generation who think that there is no internet beyond the web. The forum for now is a kind of a bridge between those worlds, it certainly would be interesting to know the demographics of the users in all four channels: mailinglist, forum, facebook and IRC. I'll leave it at this hoping to spark a little discussion on the list now for example about how Pd can become more attractive in our very own interest not to loose a future user base not only for the next convention. Also I'd be interested to hear where the next convention will take place ;) MN

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dynamic creation of pack crashes pd
by brandt＠subnet.at 12 Feb '12

12 Feb '12

since i did not find anything about by googling, i wanted to ask, if anybody has experiences with the dynamic creation of pack and the crashing of pd. if i creat a pack by hand with 32 inlets, it works. it i do it dynamicly it crashes pd win7 64 pd extended 0.42.5-extended winXP pd 0.41.4-extended please help thank you in advance markus

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HelmholtzShipHarmonicWind
by joe higham 12 Feb '12

12 Feb '12

Hi Billy Liked you piece of music that I came by via Pd-lists emails, great stuff. I'm interested to know if it's a piece that you just press the play button and it's the same each time of is it an interactive piece that changes with each version - i.e. you actually play it? All the bestJoe (Higham)

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Re: [PD] number to fractions external?
by Alexandre Torres Porres 12 Feb '12

12 Feb '12

when I "change the maximum denominator value" results are weird and Pd freezes. cheers 2011/12/17 Mike Moser-Booth <mmoserbooth(a)gmail.com> > I just added it to my library on GitHub: > > https://github.com/dotmmb/mmb > > But, yeah, feel free to use it however you want. > > .mmb > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres > <porres(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > this looks great huh? > > > > I have this pd examples that deal with tuning theory, are you releasing > this > > somewhere so i can use it? > > > > thanks > > alex > > > > > > 2011/12/17 Mike Moser-Booth <mmoserbooth(a)gmail.com> > >> > >> They're not working? Huh... Well, here's the text versions: > >> > >> dec2frac.mmb.pd: > >> > >> #N canvas 60 22 908 750 10; > >> #X obj 298 36 inlet; > >> #X obj 573 359 t l; > >> #X obj 240 574 list; > >> #X obj 198 415 sel 0; > >> #X obj 207 168 expr 1/$f1; > >> #X obj 478 359 list append; > >> #N canvas 203 22 687 744 simplify 0; > >> #X obj 144 28 inlet; > >> #X obj 198 155 list length; > >> #X obj 145 132 t l l; > >> #X obj 165 214 spigot; > >> #X obj 51 239 spigot; > >> #X obj 84 213 == 1; > >> #X obj 205 275 list split 2; > >> #X obj 98 423 pack f f; > >> #X obj 272 371 list split 1; > >> #X obj 237 340 list; > >> #X obj 198 188 > 1; > >> #X obj 98 377 expr $f2*$f1+1 \; $f1; > >> #X obj 305 513 list append; > >> #X obj 305 541 expr $f1*$f2+$f3 \; $f2; > >> #X obj 307 589 pack f f; > >> #X obj 229 423 t b l; > >> #X obj 226 631 list; > >> #X obj 97 448 t l l; > >> #X obj 102 687 outlet; > >> #X text 206 80 converts the continued fraction form into a simple > fraction > >> ; > >> #X connect 0 0 2 0; > >> #X connect 1 0 5 0; > >> #X connect 1 0 10 0; > >> #X connect 2 0 3 0; > >> #X connect 2 0 4 0; > >> #X connect 2 1 1 0; > >> #X connect 3 0 6 0; > >> #X connect 4 0 18 0; > >> #X connect 5 0 4 1; > >> #X connect 6 0 11 0; > >> #X connect 6 1 9 1; > >> #X connect 7 0 17 0; > >> #X connect 8 0 12 0; > >> #X connect 8 1 9 1; > >> #X connect 8 2 16 0; > >> #X connect 9 0 8 0; > >> #X connect 10 0 3 1; > >> #X connect 11 0 7 0; > >> #X connect 11 1 7 1; > >> #X connect 12 0 13 0; > >> #X connect 13 0 14 0; > >> #X connect 13 1 14 1; > >> #X connect 14 0 15 0; > >> #X connect 15 0 9 0; > >> #X connect 15 1 16 1; > >> #X connect 15 1 12 1; > >> #X connect 16 0 18 0; > >> #X connect 17 0 15 0; > >> #X connect 17 1 12 1; > >> #X restore 478 385 pd simplify; > >> #X obj 325 713 outlet; > >> #X obj 368 630 list; > >> #X obj 479 411 t l l; > >> #X obj 596 577 sel 1; > >> #X obj 281 348 spigot; > >> #X msg 336 349 0; > >> #X obj 281 372 t f b; > >> #X obj 505 438 list split 1; > >> #X obj 535 469 route bang; > >> #X msg 333 382 1; > >> #X text 41 573 This is just here for debugging; > >> #X obj 634 406 loadbang; > >> #X obj 634 427 f \$1; > >> #X text 612 683 .mmb; > >> #X text 638 625 TODO: implement decrementing rules; > >> #X obj 102 674 prepend set; > >> #X obj 300 210 expr if($f1<0 \, int($f1-1) \, int($f1)) \; $f1; > >> #X obj 310 268 expr $f2-$f1 \; $f1; > >> #X text 533 211 floor; > >> #X obj 628 36 inlet; > >> #X obj 628 123 max 1; > >> #X obj 596 556 > 1000; > >> #X obj 298 100 t b b f b; > >> #N canvas 0 22 450 300 test.if.integer 0; > >> #X obj 206 117 expr int($f1)==$f1; > >> #X obj 151 28 inlet; > >> #X obj 151 64 t f f; > >> #X obj 129 186 spigot; > >> #X obj 179 186 spigot; > >> #X obj 164 160 != 1; > >> #X obj 129 242 outlet; > >> #X obj 179 242 outlet; > >> #X msg 179 214 \$1 1; > >> #X connect 0 0 4 1; > >> #X connect 0 0 5 0; > >> #X connect 1 0 2 0; > >> #X connect 2 0 3 0; > >> #X connect 2 0 4 0; > >> #X connect 2 1 0 0; > >> #X connect 3 0 6 0; > >> #X connect 4 0 8 0; > >> #X connect 5 0 3 1; > >> #X connect 8 0 7 0; > >> #X restore 298 76 pd test.if.integer; > >> #X obj 403 111 s \$0-to.outlet; > >> #X obj 395 671 r \$0-to.outlet; > >> #X msg 101 698; > >> #X obj 634 452 max 1; > >> #X obj 306 157 until; > >> #X obj 335 134 r \$0-stop.until; > >> #X obj 306 183 f; > >> #X obj 127 483 s \$0-stop.until; > >> #X obj 595 604 s \$0-stop.until; > >> #X connect 0 0 30 0; > >> #X connect 1 0 5 1; > >> #X connect 2 0 22 0; > >> #X connect 3 0 8 0; > >> #X connect 3 0 38 0; > >> #X connect 3 1 4 0; > >> #X connect 4 0 23 0; > >> #X connect 5 0 1 0; > >> #X connect 5 0 2 1; > >> #X connect 5 0 6 0; > >> #X connect 6 0 9 0; > >> #X connect 8 0 7 0; > >> #X connect 9 0 8 1; > >> #X connect 9 1 14 0; > >> #X connect 10 0 8 0; > >> #X connect 10 0 39 0; > >> #X connect 10 1 16 0; > >> #X connect 11 0 13 0; > >> #X connect 12 0 11 1; > >> #X connect 13 0 3 0; > >> #X connect 13 1 12 0; > >> #X connect 14 1 15 0; > >> #X connect 15 0 16 0; > >> #X connect 15 1 28 0; > >> #X connect 16 0 11 1; > >> #X connect 18 0 19 0; > >> #X connect 19 0 34 0; > >> #X connect 22 0 33 0; > >> #X connect 23 0 24 0; > >> #X connect 23 1 24 1; > >> #X connect 24 0 11 0; > >> #X connect 24 1 5 0; > >> #X connect 26 0 27 0; > >> #X connect 27 0 10 1; > >> #X connect 28 0 10 0; > >> #X connect 29 0 2 0; > >> #X connect 29 1 35 0; > >> #X connect 29 2 37 1; > >> #X connect 29 3 5 1; > >> #X connect 29 3 8 1; > >> #X connect 30 0 29 0; > >> #X connect 30 1 31 0; > >> #X connect 32 0 7 0; > >> #X connect 34 0 28 1; > >> #X connect 35 0 37 0; > >> #X connect 36 0 35 1; > >> #X connect 37 0 23 0; > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> dec2frac.mmb-help.pd: > >> > >> #N canvas 431 22 944 500 10; > >> #X obj 25 12 cnv 15 400 35 empty empty dec2frac.mmb 20 12 0 14 -4160 > >> -203904 0; > >> #X obj 25 48 cnv 15 400 70 empty empty empty 20 12 0 14 -203904 -66577 > >> 0; > >> #X text 812 417 .mmb; > >> #X text 45 48 Converts a decimal number into its fractional form. The > >> accuracy is determined by the argument. Irrational numbers \, such > >> as pi \, don't have fractional representations. So you should make > >> the argument high enough for as accurate an approximation that suits > >> you.; > >> #X text 468 49 [dec2frac.mmb max_denominator]; > >> #X msg 71 172 3.14159; > >> #X msg 136 199 3.75; > >> #X msg 149 245 -0.625; > >> #X obj 113 338 unpack f f; > >> #X floatatom 113 364 0 0 0 0 - - -; > >> #X floatatom 170 384 0 0 0 0 - - -; > >> #X obj 131 423 /; > >> #X floatatom 131 450 0 0 0 0 - - -; > >> #X floatatom 223 252 5 0 0 0 - - -; > >> #X text 263 252 change the maximum denominator value; > >> #X text 194 333 outputs a list of <numerator> <denominator>; > >> #X text 487 69 arg1 <optional>: the maximum size of the denominator. > >> Higher values result in more accurate estimations \, but more > computation. > >> Default is 1000; > >> #X floatatom 48 255 0 0 0 0 - - -; > >> #X obj 113 296 dec2frac.mmb 1000; > >> #X text 526 305 This algorithm is based on best rational approximation > >> using continued fractions. It currently does not implement rules for > >> decrementing the last value of the continued fraction form \, so it > >> is not as accurate as it could be.; > >> #X connect 5 0 18 0; > >> #X connect 6 0 18 0; > >> #X connect 7 0 18 0; > >> #X connect 8 0 9 0; > >> #X connect 8 1 10 0; > >> #X connect 9 0 11 0; > >> #X connect 10 0 11 1; > >> #X connect 11 0 12 0; > >> #X connect 13 0 18 1; > >> #X connect 17 0 18 0; > >> #X connect 18 0 8 0; > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres > >> <porres(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > hi there, how do i get the attachments you're sending to the list? > >> > > >> > thanks > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Mike Moser-Booth > >> mmoserbooth(a)gmail.com > > > > > > > > -- > Mike Moser-Booth > mmoserbooth(a)gmail.com >

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Re: [PD] Thoughts in conclusion of the 4th Pure Data Convention
by Marco Donnarumma 11 Feb '12

11 Feb '12

Would it be feasible to have a log of all pd-ext libraries and their objects, each time a new stable version is released? Such a list would probably be overwhelming, but at least a good place where to start. M > Having a static table of objects that informs the user what's included in > the > > currently shifting target that is Pd-extended is the wrong approach.? My > > solution would be to delete the entire table, but maybe someone else has > > a better, less drastic idea. > > -- Marco Donnarumma New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com | http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net

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ubuntu linx: a couple of pd+jack errors
by João Pais 11 Feb '12

11 Feb '12

Hi list, I was trying Pd-Ext (last stable version) with jack on ubuntu linx, and got a couple of mistakes. Can someone elucidate on what they are? this one appears when I try to start Pd -nogui: "error: JACK error: cannot lock down memory for RT thread (Cannot allocate memory)" This one appears when I load a complex patch. It also crashes Pd: "tk scaling is 1.3187954309449634 Speicherzugriffsfehler pd_gui: pd process exited" Funnily, Pd+Jack works with the same patch - as long as I start Pd with alsa, and after loading the patch change the audio to jack. Thanks as usual, JoÃ£o

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Re: [PD] Thoughts in conclusion of the 4th Pure Data Convention
by Marco Donnarumma 11 Feb '12

11 Feb '12

Hi folks, it's a pity nobody is taking on the important issues advanced by Max. I see this actually fitting in a general refrain (and I include myself here) to discuss topics like: our Pd "flagship" website gives people a unnecessary hardship, or the social network culture has since long time now changed drastically the way we share on the web, and it does affect the way we promote and talk about Pd. Even if we don't want to care about it. Is is surely a long and perhaps painful discussion to draw upon, but I think it is needed at this point. We can also leave things take their drifts, which is ok, but why can't we be pro-active also at this level? I'm not sure about the demographic issue Max reported, as I see my and other's courses always very well participated, along with a fairly good dynamics taking place on the various collective platform on the web. However, it is a fact that we are inflicting ourself and our community a gratuitous pain in terms of sharing, distribution and self-teaching infrastructure. I'm the first who's always too busy to really take on this issues when somebody else points them out, but sometimes I wonder what would happen if we could be able to gather a 10% of the energies we spend developing stuff, and use it to improve once for all the way Pd appears on the web (meaning here, the way loooots of cool documentation material is overly underused because it can't be easily reached, the way how the plone website literally scare newbies, and also the fact of avoiding constructive comparisons with other open communities out there, like the processing one which does an amazing work in this sense). Pd is used by many developers, artists and so on. There are incredible works out there who earned prestigious prizes (see for instance Jaime's at FILE and Guthman Instrument Competition), new frontiers for interactive, mobile, and biosensing techs are being open only thanks to Pd, and you know what? The 80% of the people I talk to (also practitioners) don't even know about it. Imho, this is very wrong, and most importantly, dangerous for the good sake of our community. I'm aware this has been discussed far too many times, but we all could benefit a lot from a new and useful web appearance and all things related. So the question now becomes, how can we elaborate a collaborative strategy to build a proper web platform, which would emphasise the work of our developers and creators rather than hiding it? and how can we think of a communal approach to make easily available all the knowledge that sits in scattered instances all around the web? I'm sure Pd will live far longer than me, but why don't we make a little effort to gather more devs, creators and thinkers around us y simply getting all our efforts clearly visible? hope somebody else feel the same as me and Max and would feel like further the conversation. cheers and thanks, Marco > > When I find artist like Lukas Buschfeld presenting his prints printed by a > custom large scale dot matrix printer which is programmed in and run by Pd > entirely (plus a little Arduino) I'm stunned. Look at the prints: > http://lucasbuschfeld.com/index.php?cat=graphic > > In an attempt to improve the first impression you get when checking out Pd > I've been experimenting with vimeo gathering Pd based works in a group: > http://vimeo.com/groups/puredata/ > > When you look at a few other OSS Audio related softwares i find their > websites to be very clear and well structured > http://musescore.org/ > http://www.iannix.org/ > http://ardour.org/ > > Now compare. It's a great ressource but plone can certainly look nerdy and > cluttered: > http://puredata.info/ > > I'll leave it at this hoping to spark a little discussion on the list now > for example about how Pd can become more attractive in our very own > interest not to loose a future user base not only for the next convention. > Also I'd be interested to hear where the next convention will take place ;) > > MN -- Marco Donnarumma New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com | http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net

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Re: [PD] GUI and DSP
by Marco Donnarumma 11 Feb '12

11 Feb '12

You might also want to [set ( values to be displayed by your slider or number box. i.e. better this [your input] | [set ( | [vslider] rather than [your input] | [vslider] When a slider receives a [set $1( message, it only displays the data, without executing any output. This is another good resources-saving method. Obviously we are talking about a situation in which you want to use a good amount of sliders and nboxes. Otherwise, as noted previously, one or two sliders do not really represent an issue. Hiding massive GUI works also in my experience. cheers, -- Marco Donnarumma New Media + Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher, Director. ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com | http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net

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Re: [PD] [PD-dev] Can anyone on windows 7 confirm TCL bug?
by rolf meesters 10 Feb '12

10 Feb '12

no bugs on my W7. un-installed 42.5, installed build of 20120131 works ok. rolf

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Pd-list February 2012