Pd-list December 2007

pd-list@lists.iem.at

129 participants
239 discussions

Dynamic arrays creation problem
by raul diaz 30 Dec '07

30 Dec '07

Hi again! I'm working on a patch as interface for Pulsar Grain Synthesis based on a variation of nullpointer abstractions (good work Tom!): - http://www.nullpointer.co.uk/-/pd.htm - http://www.nullpointer.co.uk/-/files/pulse-grain-generator.zip I'm making some functions (constant, ramp up/down, triangle, sine, gaussian, etc) to store on tables for parameters control. I've made an abstraction to store an array with selected name which stored this functions [p-table1]. [p-tables] abstraction dynamically create six of this abstractions. But my problem is that: I have to send a bang to the [p-table1] abstraction after it have been created to change array name and canvas label. I send this bang by [send $1-bang] but it doesn't work. I'm begin to make my patches too much complicated and I can't find the problem. Somebody know what's the problem? -- Raul Diaz Poblete ************************* raul.lete(a)gmail.com Barcelona [Spain]

4 8

Pd object quick reference sheet
by Fred Jan Kraan 30 Dec '07

30 Dec '07

Hi, My first post here. As should be expected for newbies, beside sweeping the floor, is doing something that could be useful. As I couldn't find a compact alphabetic list of Pd objects, I made one: http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/digaud/puredata/index.html. I compared it with http://wiki.puredata.info/en/Category:vanilla and ./pd/doc/5.reference/help-intro.pd and found some differences. My list reflects the objects present in the 0.40-2 Pd distribution from Ubuntu 7.10. An attempt to do the same for the objects in the Pd-0.39.3-extended distribution is there too but unfinished, it probably needs another format.. Fred Jan

4 3

Re: [PD] complex metronomes sequencing problem
by Libero Mureddu 30 Dec '07

30 Dec '07

Thanks a lot, before this message I was just starting to think how to patch those myself :-) libero > From: Frank Barknecht <fbar(a)footils.org> > Subject: Re: [PD] complex metronomes sequencing problem > To: pd-list(a)iem.at > Message-ID: <20071229001600.GE19623(a)fliwatut.scifi> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Btw. attached are some helper abstractions for calculating LCM and > GCD, which may be useful to you. > > Ciao > -- > Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__ >

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Holiday Demo Album made with PD
by mark edward grimm 29 Dec '07

29 Dec '07

Well.... not really a holiday album, just a demo I was passing out to some friends this year as a present. Just thought I would share! All accomplished with Pd with much help from the netpd patches... 66mb zip mp3s HERE: http://mpc2059.com/audio/lps/machinic_demo/mpc2059_machinic_demo.zip Cheers mark ____________________ mark edward grimm | m.f.a | ed.m syracuse u. | art foundations | tech consultant megrimm.net | socialmediagroup.org & .com meg156(a)columbia.edu | 585.509.8703 ______________________________

4 3

Open .exe from pd.bat?
by raul diaz 29 Dec '07

29 Dec '07

Hi Pd's! I have a little question for programers... Can I open an aplication (*.exe) from a pd.bat file? I have made an aplication with Processing which is managed by Pd via OSC. So, now I have my "processing-application.exe" and my "pd-application.bat" and I want to open both together. Is that possible by writting some line code inside pd.bat? Or I need to make another application (*.exe?) which open both files? Thanks in advance. Saludos! -- Raul Diaz Poblete ************************* raul.lete(a)gmail.com Barcelona [Spain]

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Performance comparisons!
by Mike McGonagle 28 Dec '07

28 Dec '07

Hello all, I was wondering if anyone has done any sort of "Platform" comparisons? I am in the market for a new machine, and was just wondering if there were any performance comparions for the various platforms for which PD is available. Any advice would be appreciated. Mike McGonagle -- Peace may sound simple—one beautiful word— but it requires everything we have, every quality, every strength, every dream, every high ideal. —Yehudi Menuhin (1916–1999), musician

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Re: [PD] complex metronomes sequencing problem
by Libero Mureddu 28 Dec '07

28 Dec '07

Thanks now it is clear! libero > Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 23:30:44 +0000 > From: Andy Farnell <padawan12(a)obiwannabe.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [PD] complex metronomes sequencing problem > To: "Libero Mureddu" <libero.mureddu(a)gmail.com> > Cc: pd-list(a)iem.at > Message-ID: <20071227233044.56d67512.padawan12(a)obiwannabe.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > > Sorry Libero, I made an error in that post that may have lead you on > a goose chase. I meant to say [t f f f f f], implying that the float > (representing time) to which you are comparing time points with [==] > should be distributed across all objects in an ordered way. > > > On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 14:20:10 +0100 > "Libero Mureddu" <libero.mureddu(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > On Dec 24, 2007 12:28 AM, Andy Farnell <padawan12(a)obiwannabe.co.uk> wrote: > > > On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 00:00:13 +0100 > > > "Libero Mureddu" <libero.mureddu(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Andy, > > > > > > > > thanks for your message, it clarified a lot my problem. > > > > In fact I need a "time aware" synchronous system, could you send a > > > > basic example of that? I can guess that I need a metro plus counter > > > > and different [mod]s, but I dont get how to use [moses] and [change] > > > > for that. > > > > > > [moses] comes in when you want to create separate bars or phrases > > > and attach copies or similar parts to them. > > > > > > Say we have a subpatch or abstraction that plays a phrase [melody1] > > > and it takes a count from 0-127, and another phrase in [melody2] that > > > is different but the same length. To have them alternate you can say > > > > > > [count 256] > > > | > > > [moses 127] > > > | \ > > > [melody1] [- 128] > > > | > > > [melody2] > > > > > > [change] is useful when you did an integer division or remainder > > > with [/][int] or [div]. Even though the float output doesn't change > > > in value it is repeated for every bang of the timebase. For example > > > a counter mod 16 divided into four bars or four like this > > > > > > [count 16] > > > | > > > [/ 4] > > > | > > > [int] > > > > > > will output {0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3} > > > > > > Adding [change] turns this into {0, 1, 2, 3] changing on every fourth > > > beat. > > > > > > > > > > > In another attempt that I did, I made a select with many arguments, > > > > each one representing a "playing point". Unfortunately it seems > > > > impossible to send a list of arguments as message and set dynamically > > > > all the values for set (at least I was unable to do that). > > > > [multiselect] that should do that is broken. > > > > > > > > > This idiom is useful to make a n beat sequencer with settable > > > > > > [unpack f f f] > > > | | | > > > \ | \ | \ | > > > [==] [==] [==] ....... > > > > > > With all the left inlets connected to the timebase (remember to use a > > > big [t b b b b b ...]. A 1 is output for each match of a list you can > > > update. Use [sel 1] to turn that to a bang if necessary. > > > > > > > Do you mean something like the attached patch? Where the big [t b b b > > b b...] should be placed and for what? > > Thanks a lot, > > > > Libero > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you have an example of the sample timing based idea that you > > > > mentioned? In fact, the compositions I'm working on are not longer > > > > than 4-5 minutes. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Libero > > > > > > > > > > There's a few things to browse here, including an early example of a signal > > > domain composition with loops and synths; > > > > > > http://www.obiwannabe.co.uk/html/music/musictuts/Composition-000/Compositio… > > > http://www.obiwannabe.co.uk/html/music/musictuts/Composition-001/Compositio… > > > http://www.obiwannabe.co.uk/html/music/musictuts/Composition-002/Compositio… > > > http://www.obiwannabe.co.uk/html/compositions/compositions.html > > > > > > > > > > > From: Andy Farnell <padawan12(a)obiwannabe.co.uk> > > > > > Subject: Re: [PD] complex metronomes sequencing problem > > > > > To: pd-list(a)iem.at > > > > > Message-ID: <20071223205532.01f5fcb3.padawan12(a)obiwannabe.co.uk> > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have two or more independent metronomes that form a polyrhythmic > > > > > relationship then stopping them will lose the relationship. Each will > > > > > begin its timing series from the same "zero point". > > > > > > > > > > A synchronous system is probably better if you want to start and stop > > > > > the composition at arbitrary points and have it resume. > > > > > > > > > > The general problem with a synchronous system is that the smallest timing > > > > > resolution is the division of the master clock at all points. > > > > > > > > > > But there are also two quite distinct approaches to synchronous sequencers in > > > > > Pd having different properties. > > > > > > > > > > One is based on bangs and built from many subsystems that each hold their own > > > > > state. These "state aware" subsequences use a local counter and a [select] > > > > > object. The advantage here is that if you stop the master bang message source, > > > > > each will remain in it's last state until new bangs start to flow. The > > > > > disadvantage is that no part of the system is "time aware", so you cannot > > > > > jump forwards or backwards a number of beats to see what the sequence is > > > > > like without explicitly going through all steps. > > > > > > > > > > The second kind is "time aware". Instead of sending bangs you send float > > > > > messages which represent the current time. You can use combinations of > > > > > [moses], [mod], [change] and simple arithmetic to make subsystems behave > > > > > in different ways. You can jump forwards, backwards or pause the sequence > > > > > in any way you like. > > > > > > > > > > If you want sample accurate timing you can try an interesting approach that > > > > > Chun Lee and I have both experimented with, composition entirely in the > > > > > signal domain. You start with a very slow [phasor~] or [vline~] and calculate > > > > > all sequence timings using a mixture of [wrap~], [rpole~]/[rzero~] and > > > > > [min~]/[max~] to constrain, integrate or differentiate the timebase. This has > > > > > some really nice features, like being able to warp the timebase and get swings > > > > > or extremely smooth tempo changes. You can also warp parts independently and > > > > > have them converge on some point in the future with sample accuracy (like > > > > > spinning back a sample table and having it land exactly on the beat... which > > > > > you cannot do in any other software afaik). The disadvantage to this is that > > > > > you're limited to songs of less than about 5 mins because of rounding errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 21:08:08 +0100 > > > > > "Libero Mureddu" <libero.mureddu(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hello to everybody! > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a problem and I'd need that someone could point me at least to > > > > > > the right approach to solve it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's say I have three simple metronomes running, built with metro. > > > > > > Their speed is 1000 1001 and 1002 ms (in my case I have 88 of them, > > > > > > running at different speeds). > > > > > > I'd like to have the possibility to: > > > > > > > > > > > > a) keep the proportion constant between them and change the global > > > > > > tempo (i.e. 100, 100.1, 100.2 etc) > > > > > > b) I'd like to stop and restore the metros with their right time > > > > > > differences: if they start at the same time (from the same bang), they > > > > > > create a particular net of rhythms, that I'd like to control, analyze > > > > > > and change. I'd like to be able to stop them at a certain point and > > > > > > restart from another but keeping the same rhythmic combination. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that this exist and is called sequencer :-) > > > > > > But I want to control this using pd but I don't know really how to do > > > > > > it, and also this is the simplest example: some parts could start at a > > > > > > certain point a change towards a different tempo in a certain time, > > > > > > having different dynamic according to a particular pattern etc. etc. > > > > > > So I think pd would a good platform to implement this. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking to have a global metro running at 1 ms speed with a > > > > > > counter that reads many different arrays: the first of 1000 values > > > > > > (the first "1" and the other values "0"), the second of 1001 values > > > > > > and the third 1002 values and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > But this works if I decide in advance the metros speed and leave it > > > > > > fixed, but I want to be able to modify the speed and still being able > > > > > > to restart, stop etc. > > > > > > Other idea was to have many qlists, but again, a note approach would > > > > > > give the problem of sync between the different notes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Any help appreciated! > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, best regards and > > > > > > > > > > > > Merry Christmas! > > > > > > > > > > > > Libero > > > > > >

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Re: [PD] Creating auidioengines for games using PD
by Andy Farnell 28 Dec '07

28 Dec '07

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 13:13:19 +0100 Martin Ahnelöv <operagasten(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > So, maybe we're crazy trying to advocate disruptive new technology > > into that situation, but someone has to do it ;) > > > > We're not crazy. They are just too narrow-minded that they see the > current situation more clear than the future. 'Narrow minded' needs qualifying I think Martin. Having studied this area from more than just a technical angle, asking content producers and games developers about the how and why of static data model dominance, it's as you would expect with many industrial processes, when you already have your factories set up a certain way and all your staff trained to think a certain way, then it's difficult to switch mid-stream. To me the question is really, why have developers ignored the inevitable technology change for so long? Kees Van den Doel and Perry Cook started this ball rolling almost a decade ago, but it's been largely ignored until now. The main reason is we didn't have the CPU capacity in 2000, now we have a potential excess of CPU cycles. R&D into procedural media has been inhibited because nobody ever saw a need for it while Moores law applies as much to data storage as it does to computational resources. Now we've hit a situation where there are solutions running around looking for problems and execs asking "What are we going to use all this powerful technology for?" To get there it's more than just saying, "Okay we'll use procedural content in the next game", you need to develop toolchains and train content producers to use them as part of the investment. The other reason is much like the oil companies contribution to avoidance of sustainable energy, and the record companies reckless denial of changing production and distribution models - change doesn't happen until it hurts. The only way it's ever going to hurt in entertainment business is when your competitor can deliver a product at a fraction of what it costs you. That's not going to be the clincher for procedural content in the short term as it will initially cost more to create it than traditional data content. The catalyst is when your competitors can produce things that you simply cannot. Many new directions in gaming with open-ended user driven content, maleable game worlds and assets etc, they cannot be served by the data model. This is what drives procedural media now, the move away from the linear narrative game experience. We could add here that most games producers have always fundamentally misunderstood the nature of VR and online games by attempting to shoehorn them into a 'filmic' form, but that is changing because of user demand for richer experiences. > > I think we should show how it should be done by example. I think we > should develop a game that Does the Right Thing. Never forget that entertainment is user driven. Despite the Hollywood "push model" the fact remains that people decide what they want, so the Right Thing (TM) isn't dictated by us technologists. Probably the thing to hope for is a Better Way (TM) of doing more of the same, faster, cheaper. So, Spore may have the 'design decision' of using procedural media, but unless it is a good game nobody will care about how it works. The same will apply to proc audio, the best to hope for is that the audience simply don't even notice the technology has changed from data model to synthetic production. Then we can transparrently move from games with a few thousand sounds to games with a few trillion (or effectively infinite variation) without anybody noticing. Andy -- Use the source

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berlin 31st Dec-8thish Jan
by Damian Stewart 28 Dec '07

28 Dec '07

hey, i'm in Berlin definitely from the 27th of December til the 1st of January (for 24c3) and if i can find somewhere to stay, will be extending that to the 8th of January. i know it's a bit like to organise, but i'd like to play some gigs while i'm there if possible. so - can anyone recommend me some people to contact to organise a gig while i'm there? failing that - just a jam session would be great. i do improv electronics with a laptop, PD, and midi controller keyboard; i prefer to play with other musicians, ideally acoustic free jazz/free improv types. alternatively, anyone have a place to stay they could offer over this time? i am friendly and housetrained and cook an awesome vegan curry. thanks :-) d -- damian stewart | +351 967 797 263 | damian(a)frey.co.nz frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz

2 1

Re: [PD] complex metronomes sequencing problem
by Libero Mureddu 28 Dec '07

28 Dec '07

Hi, On Dec 24, 2007 12:28 AM, Andy Farnell <padawan12(a)obiwannabe.co.uk> wrote: > On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 00:00:13 +0100 > "Libero Mureddu" <libero.mureddu(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Andy, > > > > thanks for your message, it clarified a lot my problem. > > In fact I need a "time aware" synchronous system, could you send a > > basic example of that? I can guess that I need a metro plus counter > > and different [mod]s, but I dont get how to use [moses] and [change] > > for that. > > [moses] comes in when you want to create separate bars or phrases > and attach copies or similar parts to them. > > Say we have a subpatch or abstraction that plays a phrase [melody1] > and it takes a count from 0-127, and another phrase in [melody2] that > is different but the same length. To have them alternate you can say > > [count 256] > | > [moses 127] > | \ > [melody1] [- 128] > | > [melody2] > > [change] is useful when you did an integer division or remainder > with [/][int] or [div]. Even though the float output doesn't change > in value it is repeated for every bang of the timebase. For example > a counter mod 16 divided into four bars or four like this > > [count 16] > | > [/ 4] > | > [int] > > will output {0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3} > > Adding [change] turns this into {0, 1, 2, 3] changing on every fourth > beat. > > > > > In another attempt that I did, I made a select with many arguments, > > each one representing a "playing point". Unfortunately it seems > > impossible to send a list of arguments as message and set dynamically > > all the values for set (at least I was unable to do that). > > [multiselect] that should do that is broken. > > > This idiom is useful to make a n beat sequencer with settable > > [unpack f f f] > | | | > \ | \ | \ | > [==] [==] [==] ....... > > With all the left inlets connected to the timebase (remember to use a > big [t b b b b b ...]. A 1 is output for each match of a list you can > update. Use [sel 1] to turn that to a bang if necessary. > Do you mean something like the attached patch? Where the big [t b b b b b...] should be placed and for what? Thanks a lot, Libero > > > > > > Do you have an example of the sample timing based idea that you > > mentioned? In fact, the compositions I'm working on are not longer > > than 4-5 minutes. > > > > Thanks > > Libero > > > > There's a few things to browse here, including an early example of a signal > domain composition with loops and synths; > > http://www.obiwannabe.co.uk/html/music/musictuts/Composition-000/Compositio… > http://www.obiwannabe.co.uk/html/music/musictuts/Composition-001/Compositio… > http://www.obiwannabe.co.uk/html/music/musictuts/Composition-002/Compositio… > http://www.obiwannabe.co.uk/html/compositions/compositions.html > > > > > From: Andy Farnell <padawan12(a)obiwannabe.co.uk> > > > Subject: Re: [PD] complex metronomes sequencing problem > > > To: pd-list(a)iem.at > > > Message-ID: <20071223205532.01f5fcb3.padawan12(a)obiwannabe.co.uk> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have two or more independent metronomes that form a polyrhythmic > > > relationship then stopping them will lose the relationship. Each will > > > begin its timing series from the same "zero point". > > > > > > A synchronous system is probably better if you want to start and stop > > > the composition at arbitrary points and have it resume. > > > > > > The general problem with a synchronous system is that the smallest timing > > > resolution is the division of the master clock at all points. > > > > > > But there are also two quite distinct approaches to synchronous sequencers in > > > Pd having different properties. > > > > > > One is based on bangs and built from many subsystems that each hold their own > > > state. These "state aware" subsequences use a local counter and a [select] > > > object. The advantage here is that if you stop the master bang message source, > > > each will remain in it's last state until new bangs start to flow. The > > > disadvantage is that no part of the system is "time aware", so you cannot > > > jump forwards or backwards a number of beats to see what the sequence is > > > like without explicitly going through all steps. > > > > > > The second kind is "time aware". Instead of sending bangs you send float > > > messages which represent the current time. You can use combinations of > > > [moses], [mod], [change] and simple arithmetic to make subsystems behave > > > in different ways. You can jump forwards, backwards or pause the sequence > > > in any way you like. > > > > > > If you want sample accurate timing you can try an interesting approach that > > > Chun Lee and I have both experimented with, composition entirely in the > > > signal domain. You start with a very slow [phasor~] or [vline~] and calculate > > > all sequence timings using a mixture of [wrap~], [rpole~]/[rzero~] and > > > [min~]/[max~] to constrain, integrate or differentiate the timebase. This has > > > some really nice features, like being able to warp the timebase and get swings > > > or extremely smooth tempo changes. You can also warp parts independently and > > > have them converge on some point in the future with sample accuracy (like > > > spinning back a sample table and having it land exactly on the beat... which > > > you cannot do in any other software afaik). The disadvantage to this is that > > > you're limited to songs of less than about 5 mins because of rounding errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 21:08:08 +0100 > > > "Libero Mureddu" <libero.mureddu(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hello to everybody! > > > > > > > > I have a problem and I'd need that someone could point me at least to > > > > the right approach to solve it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's say I have three simple metronomes running, built with metro. > > > > Their speed is 1000 1001 and 1002 ms (in my case I have 88 of them, > > > > running at different speeds). > > > > I'd like to have the possibility to: > > > > > > > > a) keep the proportion constant between them and change the global > > > > tempo (i.e. 100, 100.1, 100.2 etc) > > > > b) I'd like to stop and restore the metros with their right time > > > > differences: if they start at the same time (from the same bang), they > > > > create a particular net of rhythms, that I'd like to control, analyze > > > > and change. I'd like to be able to stop them at a certain point and > > > > restart from another but keeping the same rhythmic combination. > > > > > > > > I know that this exist and is called sequencer :-) > > > > But I want to control this using pd but I don't know really how to do > > > > it, and also this is the simplest example: some parts could start at a > > > > certain point a change towards a different tempo in a certain time, > > > > having different dynamic according to a particular pattern etc. etc. > > > > So I think pd would a good platform to implement this. > > > > > > > > I was thinking to have a global metro running at 1 ms speed with a > > > > counter that reads many different arrays: the first of 1000 values > > > > (the first "1" and the other values "0"), the second of 1001 values > > > > and the third 1002 values and so on. > > > > > > > > But this works if I decide in advance the metros speed and leave it > > > > fixed, but I want to be able to modify the speed and still being able > > > > to restart, stop etc. > > > > Other idea was to have many qlists, but again, a note approach would > > > > give the problem of sync between the different notes. > > > > > > > > Any help appreciated! > > > > > > > > Thanks, best regards and > > > > > > > > Merry Christmas! > > > > > > > > Libero > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Libero Mureddu > > > > Vanha Viertotie, 21 as 417 > > > > 00350 Helsinki > > > > Finland > > > > http://webusers.siba.fi/~limuredd/ > > > > http://www.myspace.com/liberomureddu > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > PD-list(a)iem.at mailing list > > > > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Use the source > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > PD-list mailing list > > > PD-list(a)iem.at > > > to manage your subscription (including un-subscription) see > > > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > > > > > > > > End of PD-list Digest, Vol 33, Issue 163 > > > **************************************** > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Libero Mureddu > > Vanha Viertotie, 21 as 417 > > 00350 Helsinki > > Finland > > http://webusers.siba.fi/~limuredd/ > > http://www.myspace.com/liberomureddu > > > -- > Use the source > -- Libero Mureddu Vanha Viertotie, 21 as 417 00350 Helsinki Finland http://webusers.siba.fi/~limuredd/ http://www.myspace.com/liberomureddu

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Pd-list December 2007