Pd-list May 2005

pd-list@lists.iem.at

132 participants
218 discussions

Re: [PD] no licensing, no money?
by Hans-Christoph Steiner 19 May '05

19 May '05

I am certainly not opposed to setting up a NGO, I just think it would be a lot of bureaucratic work in the short run, but quite useful in the long run. It would have to be something that is meaningful internationally though, considering both where the developers come from and where the users are. I think that if we received money that was not attached to a given bounty/feature, then that money could go into a meeting fund. So if some institution just wanted to support Pd without any specific requests, then they could give money to the general meeting/community fund. .hc On May 18, 2005, at 3:14 AM, günter geiger wrote: > > > I think the idea of Christian to form a non profit organization > that receives the money is a good one. The money then would be spend > for meetings like the pd-dev meeting, workshops, etc. > The meetings get organized by the developers community. > > The bounty systems doesn't convince me. > > Guenter > > > > On Wed, 18 May 2005, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: >> >> On May 17, 2005, at 7:27 AM, Thomas Grill wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>>> i think hans proposed using a bounty system for the pd >>>> development... >>>> i >>>> like this idea very much ... >>> what i don't like about the bounty system, is the idea of >>> "competition" or "hunt" which is not really compatible with >>> "community" to my mind. >> >> In theory, I guess bounties could be competitive. But in practice, I >> don't think they would be. For the most part, Pd devs work on there >> own stuff, and there isn't much overlap. So bounties would allow >> users >> to fund the development of features that they want thru a process that >> is much more open than just giving money to a specific developer. >> >> We definitely should discuss this more. SourceForge has a mechanism >> for accepting donations for the group, but the hard part is figuring >> out how this group would handle the money. One idea is to have one >> developer, one vote, and work that way. Each developer registered >> with >> SourceForge would have a vote. Those who have contributed lots to Pd >> but are not currently part of the SF project would be encouraged to >> join. >> >> Just my two bits... >> >> .hc >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> __ >> ____ >> >> "Looking at things from a more basic level, you can come up with a >> more >> direct solution... It may sound small in theory, but it in practice, >> it >> can change entire economies." >> >> - Amy Smith >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________ ____ Using ReBirth is like trying to play an 808 with a long stick. -David Zicarelli

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memento : [pd substate] in an abstraction?
by patrick 19 May '05

19 May '05

hi frank, all. can you have a look at my patch? there's a sub-patch called [pd substate]. how can i turn this into an abstraction, so if i have to do a modification, i will just have do it in this patch. i tried to convert the [pd substate] into an abstraction, but got this error: * OSC-route: float arguments are not OK. OSCroute $1 of course the example patch is an abstraction created like this [memento_test /abs1]. thank you. patrick #N canvas 226 81 881 697 10; #X floatatom 37 77 5 0 0 1 aFloat - -; #X obj 38 203 hradio 15 1 0 8 empty empty aRadio 0 -6 0 8 -262144 -1 -1 3; #X symbolatom 86 154 10 0 0 2 - - -; #X obj 36 153 symbol; #X obj 36 129 commun /aSymbol \$0; #X obj 36 96 commun /aFloat \$0; #X obj 39 222 commun /aRadio \$0; #X obj 36 21 hradio 15 1 0 8 empty empty empty 0 -6 0 8 -262144 -1 -1 0; #N canvas 558 524 450 300 substate 0; #X msg 21 72 set; #X msg 58 72 substate \$1; #X obj 28 48 t b f; #X obj 21 97 originator \$1 \$0; #X obj 145 72 r dumpOSC; #X obj 28 25 inlet; #X connect 0 0 3 0; #X connect 1 0 3 0; #X connect 2 0 0 0; #X connect 2 1 1 0; #X connect 4 0 3 1; #X connect 5 0 2 0; #X restore 36 40 pd substate; #X connect 0 0 5 0; #X connect 1 0 6 0; #X connect 2 0 4 0; #X connect 3 0 2 0; #X connect 4 0 3 0; #X connect 5 0 0 0; #X connect 6 0 1 0; #X connect 7 0 8 0; #X coords 0 0 0.00113507 0.00143472 200 140 0;

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Synth Techniques and Tutorials
by Julian Peterson 19 May '05

19 May '05

In response to David Powers: >I think it would be good if, along with developing new features and >externals, some community members would devote more time to explaining >more general information on possible ways to use PD, approaches to >building patches, and descriptions of live performance patches. A great >example of what I am talking about is the "Building Drums in PD" >tutorial by Frank Barknecht available here: >http://footils.org/tut/pddrums/pddrums.html . There is a really strong >need for this type of tutorial! I completely agree! Is there currently a website that collects pd tutorials and example patches? If not, I would love to spearhead this movement. I don't want to do work that's already been done, but I would be happy to manage a website dedicated to tutorials, from basic how-to's to more advanced techniques. If for no other reason than to provide a good starting point for new users. I've got a few tutorials that I would be happy to share, and would gladly accept "donations" of other tutorials and articles. Let me know if such a thing already exists, since I certainly don't want to step on any toes, but otherwise I'll get to work realizing this. Julian Peterson

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Re: [PD] no licensing, no money?
by Hans-Christoph Steiner 18 May '05

18 May '05

On May 18, 2005, at 10:10 AM, gerard van dongen wrote: > On Wed, 18 May 2005 15:09:55 +0200, Thoralf Schulze > <thoralf_schulze(a)yahoo.de> wrote: > >> hi everyone, >> >> it's good to see that this issue is being discussed >> here ... >> >>> what i don't like about the bounty system, is the >>> idea of "competition" >>> or "hunt" which is not really compatible with >>> "community" to my mind. >> > >> I agree. Then again, the pd community (like any other >> open source community) is probably not as coherent as >> it seems to be at a first glance: there are the >> developers working on the software package and the >> users that use it for whatever their purposes are. >> There is a fundamental difference between developers >> and users: > > <rant> > No there isn't, especially for something like pd which is a > programming language as much as a program. There is a sliding scale > between users and programmers. > this whole difference between devs and users is artificial and a > product of the closed source software industry. </rant> > > Not that everybody needs to code, but the idea that coding is a > fundamentally different activity from using is wrong. Part of the > magic computer mystique. I totally agree. This goes along with my recent thread of using Pd to implement as much of Pd as possible. This is how it works with C, C++, Java, etc. Pd is a programming language, not just an app. If you are patching, you are a programmer. But nonetheless, "developer" is a useful distinction. It means someone who is actively working on the core of Pd, rather than writing code purely for their own purposes. Perhaps "developer" isn't the best word for this. >> From this point of >> view, bounties might be a good instrument to bring >> developers and users closer together - after all, the >> things that the average Joe User is missing in pd are >> not necessarily less important than the new and nifty >> things the average developer is implementing at the >> same time. > > The problem is the price tag. How much does it cost to implement > feature z, who determines who gets the job. See my other email about figuring out how we make decisions. That has to happen first. As for other decisions, I think we should make a freer version of the GNOME bounties system. I think that anyone should be allowed to post a bounty, and people who are giving the money can choose what they want to support. We could use the Bug/Feature Trackers on SourceForge to specify the bounties. Then when people give money, they link that money to an existing Bug/Feature Tracker. When someone submits code to fulfill that bounty, then there would be an developer election as to whether to accept it. It would be Yes/No/Abstain so people who aren't directly involved in the code that the patch applies to could abstain if they wanted. (personally, I would not want to vote Yes or No on something I didn't know about). > Can I put up bounties for features and then code them myself if some > institution gives money? Can I code features first but keep them to > myself untill somebody coughs up some dough? Sure, why not? There is nothing to prevent you from doing these things right now. I have openly said that if people give me a little money, I'll put time into working on the distros. People have given me some money to do just that, so I have put in a couple days recently. If I got enough money to stop doing lame freelance jobs, I would happily devote all that work time to Pd at a small fraction of the hour rate that I charge businesses. This was, in effect, a bounty that I put up and I collected. Or to put it another way, I offered my services, and a few people took me up on that offer. As for competition for the same patch/bounty, I don't think that we should allow a developer to "mark" a bounty to prevent others from working on it. If this was true, then someone could easily "mark" a high paying bounty, and sit on it until they felt like working on it. This would block other people from doing it without any They should announce that they are working on it, then other developers can decide for themselves whether its worthwhile to compete for the same bounty. But in general, the idea would be that only one person should work on a give feature/bounty at a time. I think Tim is right, a marketplace is more what we are thinking for Pd that bounties. > Bounties might work for something where there are only two or three > developers and the program has a more strict licence than pd. Bounties work well for GNOME, which has more developers that Pd and is GNU GPL. Besides Miller's Pd code, almost all of the rest of the Pd code is released under the GNU GPL also. > Use the money to pay some developers to come install and lecture on > the stuff. Start a pd development group locally. Or commision somebody > for a piece of music or an installation or a piece of software. Or get > some funky hardware for the money. Sensors and stuff like that. If you are going to use money to commission a piece of music or a talk, why not commission a bugfix or a new feature? .hc > > The pd community is too loose for something really official. And I > personally like that. > > > another 2 c > > Gerard > > > _______________________________________________ > PD-list(a)iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > ________________________________________________________________________ ____ "The arc of history bends towards justice." Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Re: [PD] Graph on parent, block~, switch~ questions
by thewade 18 May '05

18 May '05

> somehow i think that when you say \"external\", you really mean > \"subpatch\" or possibly \"abstraction\". Ya, your proabably right. I am not really fimilar with the vocabulary I guess. Thanks! I did some tests with switch~ and indeed you are right. It would be useless to have such an object that can only be turned off in retrospect. Still no word on gop on and off via an object? What about a global message like the dsp message? $0-object gop off Hurrah for PD! -thewade

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PDP and MIDI
by Spencer Russell 18 May '05

18 May '05

I've been playing with PDP, and I'm trying to control it with my MIDI control surface. There seems to be a lot of latency, though, whenever PDP is rendering, almost half a second. It happens whether I'm using my USB control surface or a midi-sequencer plugged into the midi port of my audio card. When I stop rendering PDP, MIDI returns to normal. any ideas? thanks, spencer

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Re: [PD] Graph on parent, block~, switch~ questions
by thewade 17 May '05

17 May '05

> using \"vis $1\" messages or the mouse Can you explain? [my_abstraction] |;my_abstraction vis 0( <-- turns off abstraction gui? I\'m gonna try Tim\'s suguestion when I get home. Thanks Tim and Frank! Tim: I am curious what you mean by boom! :D <suguestions> I wonder if it wouldn\'t be a good idea (like labeling inlets with a mouseover which I still haven\'t had the time to figure out) to allow patches to open and close like a window? Closed subpatches or abstractions would just look like the rradical *-ng and thusly not have the overhead of drawing the gui, or you could open the external by either a message or a right click. While we are at it why not add a switch~ off/on (when outside an abstraction) and even a blocksize dialog (along with the gop toggle when inside an abstraction) to the right click options just for kicks? </suguestions> Would all that require a major rewrite? Thanks for the help and the patience, one and all! -thewade

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MSD incompatibility of new version
by Nicolas Montgermont 17 May '05

17 May '05

Hi list, I've here a new version (0.06) of msd externals... The problem is some messages are no more compatible with the 0.05 version. The D2 parameter that was used to simulate a kind of viscosity was a physical nonsense. Oriented links has been implemented, since D2 can be viewed as an oriented link, it has disappeared from the initial parameters. The problem is that the usual link message now looks like : [link Id N°Id/mass N°/Idmass K D (Lmin Lmax) (, so it's no more compatible with the former message [link Id N°mass N°mass K D D2 (Lmin Lmax) (. Has someone a big problem updating to this new syntax? If not, it will be commited on the CVS... as soon as I've made some examples and beautiful help files ;-) Best greetings, Nicolas

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Graph on parent, block~, switch~ questions
by thewadde 17 May '05

17 May '05

Hi list-of-the-gods! I have but a few questions this time: 1. Is there an object that can turn of and on graph on parent? Some times its nice to configure things via a gui but to be able to turn all that off on the objects that are just recieveing messages would be nice. Also if I put a bunch of graph on parent objects inside a [pd bla] type subpatch will their gui\'s still eat cpu power? 2. Lets say I have an external that I can send a message to, that can turn switch~ off andd on: if I turn the external off can I still send a message to it to turn it back on? (I will experiment with this when I get home...) 3. Setting an external to have a low blocksize using [block~] forces the external to be computed more frequently (because of the small blocksize) and therefor consume more cpu, right? I ask these silly questions becasue I madde a bunch of graph on parent patches, but for most of them once there configured they can just recieve messages, and I would like to elimiate the popping I get when I have a bunch of the gop externals loaded and I move the mouse or drag an object (without increasing the latency that is...) Thanks list! -thewade ps: I have a piece in a performance on sat and sun that uses PD on my 64-bit machine! Wish me luck! Extra credit: Is there a way to force tabread4~ to read only even samples? On 64bit tabread returns goodd values if I read only even samples (obviously becasue the lower 32 bits have the value and the upper are all zeros, but the increment is 32, so [line] [t f f] [- ]\\[% 2] [tabread] works ok. [tabread~

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Default canvas size
by Jamie Bullock 17 May '05

17 May '05

Hi, Is there any way to change the the default canvas size, for a new canvas? I had a look in pd.tk, and there seem to be two variables; $width and $height, but they don't seem to be defined anywhere. I don't know tcl/tk at all, so maybe someone can help.. Jamie

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Pd-list May 2005