Pd-list April 2004

pd-list@lists.iem.at

143 participants
299 discussions

iemlib problems with cvs pd
by matthew shanley 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

i'm trying to use some of the iemlib objects with the cvs version of pd. most load fine, but dsp and pink~ don't load at all. this is using iemlib 1.15 downloaded just today, and the cvs pd downloaded and compiled a few days ago (just checked and nothing for main pd seems to have changed in the meantime). i tried copying a 1.14 version of iemlib off another machine and still got the same problems, so perhaps this a problem in the cvs pd? any ideas? thanks in advance and let me know if there's anything i can do to help pin down the problem. matt

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a tale of two rewraps
by derek holzer 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

Here's a funny one: There is a "rewrap" object in Zexy, and a "rewrap" object in Maxlib. Only one of them does what I want it to, which is to rewrap forwards and backwards between the two creation arguments, and not wrap all the way back to the first [this is what "wrap" is for, I guess]. Now, if I need both libraries, how can I specify which of the same-named objects PD will use? hmmmm.... d. -- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ---Oblique Strategy # 104: "Listen in total darkness, or in a very large room, very quietly"

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min of a matrix
by charles verron 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

Hi list, Is there an object to return the min value of a matrix (or of a list with more than 2 elements) please. I couldn't find it already. -- Charles Verron Charles.Verron(a)la-kitchen.fr La Kitchen

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[Zexy] Writing data to matrices
by Alyte Podvoiskis 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

Hi again! I'm trying to write data to external excel files to create matrices. I know [matrix] performs this function and I've found the 'write' function but don't understand how to connect the two. Thanks Alyte

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RE: [PD] Waveform Analysis?
by Ian Smith-Heisters 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

> I'm not sure what you mean by more > mathematical... More mathematical than describing music in first-order logic. I admit that such a thing would be impractical, as you point out. But it could offer an interesting excercise--perhaps in futility, but interesting nonetheless. > > It takes a signal input and outputs the song's genre and aesthetic > > quality on a scale of 1-10. > > Actually, even though I think many æsthetical judgements can be > formalized, not all can, and even, who gets to decide the æsthetical > rules? They tend to be very contextual and ever-changing; well, unless > the > Academy or the Church emits strict rules, but we're not in that era > anymore =) There is a multitude of possible æsthetical models and in > the > end it all depends on which crowd you are trying to please -- even > within > _one_ so-called genre...! I'm afraid my humor may have been lost somewhere in its translation to the bitstream. I am the first to agree that aesthetics are not only difficult to formalize and judge, but also that aesthetics are very often not the primary interest of art. Doing all that in realtime through PD is not only technically impossible, but undesired. However, I found out more about the method of compression to find similarities in music that I mentioned in my first email. The practice originated in analyzing DNA. A Markov chain analysis essentially is looking for similarities in the probability functions between states in (in this case) a piece of music. Instead, you can compress the music using any old compression scheme (there has been quite a bit of research into which ones work best for what). Then you compare the compressed music to another piece of compressed music. Since the compression is looking for similarities, just like Markov Chain modeling does, the difference in the two filesizes is directly porportional to the amount of difference in the two songs. The advantage (I guess) is that there is much less specialization required in writing the analysis functions. In twenty words or less. But, as gml(a)xs4all.nl points out: > Actually that looks more like a audio/video track database >description/querying method. The question was more about how to get analysis >information from an audio stream. we've gotten off topic. On my part this digression sprouted from wondering what to do with all the waveform analysis data once you have it. gml(a)xs4all.nl: >Besides the analytical tools with orthonormal function-spaces (fourier etc.) I >am also looking into classification based on the geometric/topological >properties of the wave. >Things like the fractal dimension of the waveform over either a short window, >like fft's, or on longer segments. >They use this kind of stuff to analyse heart-rythms f.i. I would be interested in any links you might have, as I'm unfamiliar with this kind of analysis. Cheers, Ian

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OSC with Linux
by nicolas potiron 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

Hello, I don't reach to run a pd file which use the libOSC, I can't load it. Do you know where can I put the folder libOSC (in the 'extra' folder?), how can I run this lib? I work with pd-0.37-1 on redhat. Thanks a lot. Yahoo! Mail : votre e-mail personnel et gratuit qui vous suit partout ! CrÃ©ez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Dialoguez en direct avec vos amis grÃ¢ce Ã Yahoo! Messenger !TÃ©lÃ©chargez Yahoo! Messenger sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com

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RE: [PD] Waveform Analysis?
by Ian Smith-Heisters 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

> I'm not sure how discussing of a high-level musical description for a > database differs from a high-level musical description for a stream. > Actually I thought that to actually put such a thing in a db you'd > actually first analyse a stream. So I'm really puzzled, as to what is > the > distinction that is being made here, and why. On the one hand we have lower level issues of simply how to analyze waveforms. From these methods you get raw data about the structure of the music itself. These are essentially represented by data structures of some sort. Given a large amount of this data, in a database perhaps, we come to the question of what one wants to do with it all. Thus we have the level of waveform analysis: getting the raw data from a waveform, and on the other hand we have programs that analyze the results of the waveform analysis. To have an 'artificially intelligent' program draw conclusions about music requires the data pulled from the waveform. But looking at the waveform could be done without the need for anything more, eg. bonk~ and fiddle~ which can be used quite simply within a patch. I wonder if that explains the neccesity for a distinction at all. Sorry if it doesn't, I'll try again. >No it's certainly not, because old compression schemes do not look at the >whole file all of the time; they are highly local, as a way to save >effort. E.g. maybe with Lempel-Ziv you'd use a 4k or 32k or 256k window. Of course, my language was sloppily unspecific. By saying 'any old compression scheme' I was refering rather to the point that the compression scheme does not have to be tailored to this specific application. However, even a compression algorithm with a small window would yield some results that are useful, but I'm sure that you're right that something with a larger scope would generally be more useful. Again, there has been some research in to which kinds of algorithms work best for different applications. It may be useful to have a smaller window with some music--the similarities found then would be in harmonies, rather than larger scale properties (maybe thematic structure and repetition?) that may differ greatly within a genre. It all depends on what you are comparing, and what similarites you are looking for. >Art is in denial. I'm sure that art is in denial. Hippie-dippie-you're-okay-I'm-okay critical theory is hogwash (IMHO), and often questions of aesthetics _are_ pushed off to other elements, as in lots of conceptual art. Personally, though, I don't care about aesthetics or critical theory (the two go hand and hand, don't they?). If I make art, that's that. While I can defend my position with critical arguments, I don't generally find this necessary. You may argue that this in itself is aesthetic, the aesthetic of the state of mind of the creator or something, the aesthetic of the enjoyment of the process maybe. This, perhaps, is the only way to have a meaningful discussion about art, because it provides a a definition for the discussion and a common vocabulary to conduct the discourse in. But, at least in my own case, which is an admittedly unimportant case, my interest is not in having a cool, beautiful, or otherwise aesthetic-based look, sound, concept, denial of concept, denial of aesthetic, whatever. Any discussion of such may as well be about another piece. I welcome such discussion and find it interesting, but it is more an excercise in strategies of debate than in coming to the heart of the work--which may just be the experience of creation. I would also argue that this applies to other artists than little ol' me: perhaps Merce Cunningham, Kazuo Ohno and Tatsumi Hijikata, others. I may be wrong however. -Ian

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"ping-pong" ball-like algorithm in PD
by chris tyrrell 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

uh....yeah on a related point i cant seem to find a help file for the maxlib pong external, does it exist? it's definitely not on my computer (although the external is obviously)... ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

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Gemwin crashes my machine completly!
by thewade 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

Hi, its me again, your favorite newbe! I can build gem from cvs no problem, after disabling gltt. I can make a gemwin oject and pd doesnt crash. As soon as I send a create message to gemwin my machine totaly freezes. My question, what is happening? Where is gem doing me in, or have I misconfigured it somewhere? Heres my configure line: ./configure --with-avi --with-ieee1394 --with-x --with-quicktime --with-ftgl --without-gltt --enable-mmx --without-mpeg3 Thanks for the help! -thewade

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RE: [PD] Waveform Analysis?
by Ian Smith-Heisters 19 Apr '04

19 Apr '04

> I wonder how much Markov-chain modeling would be appropriate for this. > I > mean, if music is a language, then why not analyse it using Natural > Language Processing (NLP) techniques like Markov's... :-) I'm not familiar with Markov-chain modeling, but it might be an interesting endeavor to try to describe genres of music using first order logic ;). I suppose any of these methods could work, it's just a matter of which is easiest, and describing musical genres using logical assertions sounds even more difficult than trying to do it in natural language, which has already proven almost impossible, esp. with 20th century music. A lot of people say that music is a mathemetical language so a more mathematical approach may tend to be more efficient. Then you can leave the details up to the algorithm, once you've given it the tools to analyze the music and a thousand pre-defined songs as guidelines. But I guess that's exaclty what looking at it as natural language, and analyzing it with Markov chain modeling would be. Once you've defined your language of notes, measures, tempos etc (a much smaller vocabulary than traditional natural language) you could let the modeling search go at it. Or something. I only have a cursory understanding of AI, and all my practical knowledge is limited to search techniques and propositional logic. I'm just musing at this point. Now, we just need to do this all on the fly with my new extern [genrefi~] :) It takes a signal input and outputs the song's genre and aesthetic quality on a scale of 1-10. You can watch your quality rating go up and down as the song progresses. I'll never write a bad song again. Actually, when I have some time I was thinking of sitting down and writing an algorithm that chops up sound files and reasembles them. It would base its 'choices' on some desired attributes (bpm, climactic placement, choppiness/smoothness (1-10) etc.) and on some vague definitions of what is 'good' and 'bad' music. The idea is that I could feed in any sound file, eg. birds chirping, or some abstract ambient improv and it would cut it in such a way that it becomes a structered, rhythmic song of some sort. Really more of an excercise in genetic algorithms than anything practical. -i

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Pd-list April 2004