Pd-list December 2003

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152 participants
244 discussions

Re: [PD] (Facts Please !) a mac or pc with Linux for PD
by Marc Lavallée 16 Dec '03

16 Dec '03

Hi Ken. On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 09:08:14PM -0800, Ken wrote: > Linux is anything but tranparent, let alone "fully-functional". It is transparent, because you are allowed to look at the source code. It is functionnal, but again, "fully" is a vague concept that depends on what's expected, and the quality of interaction between the user and the technology, where the user is more responsible than we tend to accept. > I have spent much time in Linux over the years and I have come to the evil > conclusion, that a hundred dollars or two spent to have a working machine > is years added to my life. Gnu/Linux is usually not life threatening. Maybe you hate Gnu/Linux too much. > I don't have unlimited time to spend on hacking hardware, that will soon > be obsolete anyways, compiling/recompiling, ad nauseum etc. Me neither. But I prefer obsolescence that I'm allowed to understand, even if I don't in the first place. Besides, I don't have to recompile ad nauseum; you should simply upgrade, then hack later when you feel like it. You have a limited experience with Gnu/Linux (two years is a good start), but it's not too late. > I would rather just buy something, hard or soft, that will > work from the get-go than hope some hacker figures how to make it > semi-function 2 years later. If paying makes you feel better, then buy a good Gnu/Linux distribution, or pay someone who can help. If you can't use Gnu/Linux now, install it later as a second boot option; but I would not recommend that, because if you value your time, you better learn to use Gnu/Linux now: even two years "later", in most situation, is a better investment. You have a lot of external pressure that makes it difficult for you to invest more time in free software; this is a common situation, but don't definitely give up. > A good tool, if it does the job, is a good tool, wherever it comes from. Technology is not neutral. Maybe swiss technology is... > My loyalty is now on its functionality. It's a bit servile. I hope you'll change your mind. > Show me something in Linux that can get anywhere near replacing > my Sonar and Virtual Sampler. I don't know about these applications, but I'm sure they are designed to make their users plain happy, at least for a little while. I can't show you perfect replacements; this is not why free software exists. The Gnu/Linux audio applications web site: http://linux-sound.org/ The Planet CCRMA web site: http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/planetccrma/software/ > Another observation is that even the shareware/freeware apps on Win > are far easier to install, and most often way more functional and easier > to use than most on Linux. This is a common observation, but not true: I can easily install dozens of applications in one single command. "easier" is a very relative concept, just like "fully-functional". It all depends on the tools, the resources, the users and the skills. > I feel that the competition, brought on by money is what fuels this. There's also a lot of competition in the free software movement. Money is not the only way to fuel competition and motivate people. > Witness just the soft-synth market. Check out the number of programs. > Check out Crystal as a freeware soft, for an example of the > quality of "freeware". Freeware is called "gratuiciel" in French. Free as in beer, not freedom. The intrinsic quality of a freeware application, from a user point of view, is not enough to overcome the fact that it's not free as in freedom. > Linux looks like an old horse trying to catch up. Gnu/Linux is not competing directly on the soft-syth market: it's mostly a kernel, completed with essential components to build free operating systems often called "distributions". Some people write audio applications for Gnu/Linux, and some of them probably never recompiled a kernel. Many programmers don't have a clue how computers and operating systems works, yet they can write good enough applications. If we want those programmers to write free audio applications (for any OS, not only Gnu/Linux), they must understand why free software is important, and for some of them find ways they can get money out of it, if this is one of their primary motivations. > In fact, it seems that most Linux heads are too busy building > software/systems than expressing themselves creatively, or perhaps that is > their true aim and pursuit. Yes, those heads are aiming at providing a free and good computing environment, because computing is an important part of our contemporary culture. It's also a sort of creative expression. Some hackers makes music too. But some musicians also hack, and they enjoy it. > I like the ideals of Linux, don't get me wrong, but it seems that the only > way this is going to work is if the whole world/system is free also. Freedom is not only about money, but money is not incompatible with freedom, right? I also think the world should be free, by making sure knowledge is accessible to anybody, anywhere. The Free Software Movement is inspiring many people who are not computing heads; it makes them realize the problems with patents and monopolies, for example, also in domains like bio-technology. > Existence must be free, like any wild animal, for Linux to make sense. > As long as money is demanded of us, we need money, i.e. $MS. Your conclusion is dangerous and irresponsible; you are legitimating monopolies by claiming that our existence as free citizens is bounded by money more than anything else. The social contract proposed by monopolies is suicidal. Animals have good survival skills, but most are now in danger, like us. > Meanwhile, I'm going to continue to try and express and communicate this > predicament to as many as will listen using Sonar/MAX/Vsamp and a couple > other minor players. Good luck.... > Ken Anyway, you should at least pay credit to free software, because MacOSX is based on freeBSD, and Max/MSP on PD. Good programmers working on your favorite products probably rely on an extensive knowledge of free software. Thanks for your comments. -- Marc

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Pd: system call timed out
by Frank Barknecht 16 Dec '03

16 Dec '03

Hi, I have a strange thing going on with my Pd recently. Each time I start Pd, be it the one from the Debian package from experimental or one, I compiled from the CVS, Pd seems to hang for some seconds after configuring the midi devices. $ pd couldn't open MIDI input device -1 couldn't open MIDI output device -1 opened 0 MIDI input device(s) and 0 MIDI output device(s). --- here it hangs for rather long, then goes on like this: Pd: system call timed out before it starts up normal. Afterwards, sound is working fine, be it with OSS or ALSA. The temporary hangs could be related to some Jack stuff, because when I start a jackd and open up "pd -jack", it's there immediatly. Could I do something about it? I normally use Pd without jack, but sometimes also with. ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__

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readsf~
by afenerich 16 Dec '03

16 Dec '03

Hi ! I am trying to use the readsf~ object, in PD 0.37 for mac X, but it is not working, it cannot open the soundfile because it cannot find it; but I have saved my soundfile in the pd/doc/sound directory, the same as in the help example. this message appears in wish terminal: error: readsf: start requested with no prior 'open' error: readsf: start requested with no prior 'open' error: dsp: ../sound/ellerfront.wav: No such file or directory Does anybody knows how to solve it? I really love apreciate help!! Thanks Alex __________________________________________________________________________ Acabe com aquelas janelinhas que pulam na sua tela. AntiPop-up UOL - É grátis! http://antipopup.uol.com.br/

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RE: [PD] RE: [OT] migrating to linux
by Matthew Allen 15 Dec '03

15 Dec '03

> -----Original Message----- > From: Frank Barknecht [mailto:fbar@footils.org] > > it was pretty easy to get things up and running smoothly (which is why I > > keep pointing people to the CCRMA guys). > > CCRMA guy! Guy! One guy! Whose doing a hell of a good job. ;) ok!!! Guy! Sorry Fernando. > > like to move over to mostly shell based scripts as soon as I can. > > Don't do that. Bash is hell (a lot of hell going on in this mail, no > offending intended). I am mostly just trying to learn the syntax of it so I can figure out what is going on in some of the larger shell scripts I have seen. Sort of like opening someone else's Patch to figure out how they build things. I promise not to forget any Python :) > So one possible way would be: Install a stable Debian base system. > Only a minimal set of packages, no X (so X can't break on the upgrade) > and similar, but with net access. [snip] ok interesting, Ill give that a shot (I don't have net access so I have to do an 'apt-cdrom add'. m.

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RE: [OT] migrating to linux
by Matthew Allen 15 Dec '03

15 Dec '03

Ahh sorry ... it wansn't meant to be sound traumatic at all. Just an addition to the falling of the cliff. > -----Original Message----- > From: CK [mailto:x@meta.lo-res.org] > > > WOW, it's sad to hear stories like that over and over again, and I'm > really impressed by the fact that you're still giving debian (or free > sw in general a go). Actually I love doing this stuff and figuring it out. I could most likely avoid these problems by not being so curious about things. But if that was the case I suppose I wouldn't be using PD. > * find someone experienced who's willing to lend you a hand > in the beginning (ideally this is someone from your school, > neighborhood but if no one's available check out irc and mailing > lists a lot of people in the linux community tend to be extremely > helpful and geeky enough to have amazing response times) :). Being in the overworked, new dad 30+ crowd I don't have much time to devote to tromping through IRC looking for help. One thing I would add to this is GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND. Its like finding a Linux geek who mostly knows what you need. Searchable mailing list archives have saved me a couple of times. > * be prepared for a steep learning curve, hey this is the literate > user department, and no os is transparent to the blind, you will > run into trouble (just like with any other complex piece of tech) > when trying unusual things, and after you fixed a couple of major > fsck ups you'll be glad you did, they happen less often once you > get the hang of it, and you'll find it much easier to fix minor > nuisances. Once again why I'm going the 'more difficult' route. I installed RH 9.0 and it was pretty easy to get things up and running smoothly (which is why I keep pointing people to the CCRMA guys). There were a number of things I knew linux could do (and I really wanted to try out), but I needed to get my hands dirty in order for it to happen. My partitioning and disk setup kung fu is now pretty strong. > > * learn to program/script a little at first and try to put it to use > and see how lots of tedious tasks can be made very easy by simply > changing a few lines in some readily available script/program, watch > yourself becoming better at it. Actually I've been a PERL freak for 7 years and have been using python now for 3. Scripting is not an issue. I'm still getting comfortable with shell scripting and usually just write a quick perl script for stuff, but I would like to move over to mostly shell based scripts as soon as I can. However most of my problems have not been automating mundane tasks they have been: > * figure out the package management system of your distribution (if > applicable), become familiar with the GNU build system and start > making your own (packages not management system that is) BAM! Apt-* is awesome and easy to use, and of course easy to break a bunch of stuff with if you don't read the docs and just jump in head first. So this week has been earmarked as 'Learn all you can about Apt-' week. Also like a brave sole I tried the brand spankin new Sarge installer after I killed the machine on Friday with the dist-upgrade. It didn't really work so well for me :) > * start talking in tongues, use more acronyms than actual words, > patch your kernel on a regular basis and feel the cool breeze. Does snake handling count? m.

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Re: [PD] -nogui=>audiostuck
by Anton Woldhek 15 Dec '03

15 Dec '03

thanks for the replies everybody. Anton

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RE: [OT] [PD] (Facts Please !) a mac or pc with Linux for PD
by Matthew Allen 15 Dec '03

15 Dec '03

I moved straight to debian (I had a 1/2 day planet ccrma detour) from win2k about a month ago. I didn't necessarily fall off a cliff, but sometimes I feel like I'm rolling down one very quickly. I would suggest using some short cuts. I originally installed 3.01 (woody release 1) and tried to recompile the kernel with alsa support. I read docs as literature, I figured it was no problem. 2 days later I was downloading the Demudi packages from the Agnula project. This worked great for a couple of weekends, but I figured I would do an upgrade to get v .37 from CVS. The machine upgrade killed my system (I think it fried LILO) so I spent most of this weekend re-installing stuff. 2 things I took away from this as a linux newbie. 1. always have a boot floopy handy 2. if you have old obscure hardware that X cares about (mouse, keyboard monitor/ Video card) and you spend 4 or 5 days building a usable XF86 config file, you should maybe copy that little old text file to a floppy, or maybe send a mail with it as the body of the message. That way when the apt-get dist-upgrade fries say, LILO you can then just quickly re-install stuff and copy over you X window config file, instead of spending another day tracking down your 12 year old monitor's specs. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jean Jacques [mailto:jj@wanadoo.fr] > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 12:30 AM > Cc: pd-list(a)iem.at > Subject: [OT] [PD] (Facts Please !) a mac or pc with Linux for PD > > Thank you everyone for your contribution ! > > I know that i may fall of a cliff on my road to Debian, but i'm not > looking for the easy way, i really want to stop using proprietary > softwares that's why i'm going linux, i'm ready to invest time on it ! > I plan to install PD + Gem and make music !

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Re: [PD] -nogui=>audiostuck
by Anton Woldhek 15 Dec '03

15 Dec '03

hello list, Josheph > Do you have a netreceive object in your patch? When using -nogui with Pd on > Windows, you need to have a netreceive object somewhere (anywhere) in your > patch so the Pd scheduler has something to select() on, else it will grind > to a halt. Hope this helps. Ic so just a empty netreceive will do? Thanks Anton

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my_canvas labels changing their values... bug bug bug
by David NG McCallum 15 Dec '03

15 Dec '03

Dear all, I have a few abstractions where I have my_canvases whose labels are arguments of the abstraction. So they would be $3 or $9 or whatever. I'm finding that sometimes these label values change. I saved the abstraction several times and watched an $11 (the argument was 9) turn into $109, and then $100. And a $12 (the argument was 10) turned into $1110 and then $110. But the arguments only changed that second time after I reloaded the abstraction, and the canvases were then showing 0 (because there was no 109th or 1110th argument). And then they changed to their final weird arrangements. Is my_canvas doing some weird combination of the argument, the $ ID, and the label in the canvas when it's saving its parameters? I think someone mentioned something like this earlier with sliders. Anyway, kind of annoying, kind of weird. Kind of spooky; too late for hallowe'en. Cheers, David -- . . David McCallum . Music wants to be free . http://mentalfloss.ca/sintheta .

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-nogui=>audiostuck
by Joseph A. Sarlo 15 Dec '03

15 Dec '03

Do you have a netreceive object in your patch? When using -nogui with Pd on Windows, you need to have a netreceive object somewhere (anywhere) in your patch so the Pd scheduler has something to select() on, else it will grind to a halt. Hope this helps. Joe jsarlo(a)ucsd.edu > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anton Woldhek" <woldhek(a)xs4all.nl> > To: <PD-list(a)iem.at> > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 11:20 AM > Subject: [PD] -nogui=>audiostuck > > > Hi, > > ive ran into a snag using GrIPD and PD. When i edit my batch to run -noqui > the audio i/o gets stuck and my system crashes (win2k). > If i boot the exact same batch file everythings starts perfectly. > Anything obvious or not so obvious i could be missing here? > > Anton >

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Pd-list December 2003