Re: [PD] Game Audio abstractions- how to publish?

-- Tony Hillerson On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 at 22:07 PM, pd-list-request@iem.at wrote: > Send Pd-list mailing list submissions to > pd-list@iem.at (mailto:pd-list@iem.at) > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pd-list-request@iem.at (mailto:pd-list-request@iem.at) > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pd-list-owner@iem.at (mailto:pd-list-owner@iem.at) > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Pd-list digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Game Audio abstractions- how to publish? (Joe White) > 2. Re: Wich licence? (Mario Mey) > 3. Re: libpd separating gui from core (Rich E) > 4. Re: libpd separating gui from core (Jonathan Wilkes) > 5. Re: libpd separating gui from core (Jonathan Wilkes) > > Forwarded message: > > From: Joe White white.joe4@gmail.com > > To: Filippo Beck Peccoz mail@fbpsound.com > > Cc: PD list pd-list@iem.at > > Date: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 at 7:25:45 > > Subject: Re: [PD] Game Audio abstractions- how to publish? > > > > Nice one Filippo! Thanks for sharing > > > > Cheers, > > Joe > > > > > > > > On 16 February 2014 21:31, Filippo Beck Peccoz <mail@fbpsound.com (mailto:mail@fbpsound.com)> wrote: > > > Hello list, > > > > > > I've collected and cleaned up a few patches that I've been using a lot while making game audio with PD (mainly for Android, using libpd, Unity and Kalimba) and wanted to make them available to everyone. > > > Giving a tiny bit back since I've received so much help and advice from the PD community! > > > > > > I'm mainly trying to cover what a PD beginner/game audio composer would need in order to start building a PD-based audio engine for a video game. Threw in some mixer abstractions, some stuff for interactive music, a state-based drum machine and so on. > > > > > > As I said it's super basic, but it might just be less intimidating for someone who's just interested in the game audio potential of PD to have these basic blocks handy. > > > > > > Let me know if there is anything that can/should/must be improved in order for it to be of any use! I'd like to make help patches for the abstraction as well, but am not sure if they really need them since most of them are very simple. What do you think? > > > > > > https://fbpserver.dyndns.org/pydio/data/public/5b1c5c.php > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > Filippo > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Pd-list@iem.at (mailto:Pd-list@iem.at) mailing list > > > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Follow me on Twitter @diplojocus > Forwarded message: > > From: Mario Mey mariomey@gmail.com > > To: pd-list@iem.at > > Date: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 at 12:54:03 > > Subject: Re: [PD] Wich licence? > > > > Right, I put GPL license, I think it is the best for this project. I > > uploaded it here: > > > > http://puredata.hurleur.com/viewtopic.php?pid=40358#p40358 > > > > You can see MEH-SYSTEM on stage and with full success, here: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckKg_rS5ezQ > > > > Thanks everybody! > > > > > > > > On 16/02/14 02:03, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > > > On 02/15/2014 03:14 PM, olm-e wrote: > > > > On 15/02/14 20:53, pd-list-request@iem.at (mailto:pd-list-request@iem.at) wrote: > > > > > Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2014 16:52:58 -0300 > > > > > From: Mario Mey <mariomey@gmail.com (mailto:mariomey@gmail.com)> > > > > > Subject: Re: [PD] Wich licence? > > > > > To: pd-list@iem.at (mailto:pd-list@iem.at) > > > > > Message-ID: <52FFC59A.4030401@gmail.com (mailto:52FFC59A.4030401@gmail.com)> > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > > > > > > > On 14/02/14 15:45, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > > > > > > > How would that be any different than spyware? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Jonathan > > > > > Haha! Good point! > > > > > > > > > > Thanks everybody for the answers. I took a look to Matt Davey's DIY2 > > > > > effects and he put no license txt file on its folder. Maelstorm mmb > > > > > libraries have no license too... > > > > > > > > > > My patch is for everyone who wants to use it or learn with it. If > > > > > someone finally uses MEH-SYSTEM or a modified version of it in stage or > > > > > for a video or whatever... I "would like" to know it... only that! > > > > > > > > > > Maybe I leave it as is. Saying nothing about license... > > > > > > Skim the Wikipedia pages for GPL and 3-clause BSD, choose the one you > > > prefer, and then you're done. > > > > > > Otherwise you create potential work for anyone who may have a use for > > > your software to figure out what the terms of use and distribution > > > are. It's probably not a big deal for a particular piece of software, > > > and there are plenty of Pd patches out there that don't specify > > > anything. But when you take, say, everything that exists on Github, > > > the lack of licenses probably leads to busywork that eats up > > > measurable amounts of time and effort. > > > > > > -Jonathan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Hello, > > > > having no licence is probably not a good idea, as it's like enforcing > > > > the default copyright rules that basically give no rights at all ... > > > > (lots of code are practically not legaly usable on github for that > > > > reason f.ex.) > > > > the best would be IMHO to put it in (L)GPL and gently ask to downloaders > > > > to report use as a courtesy on the download page... > > > > have a good day, > > > > > > > > Ol. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Pd-list@iem.at (mailto:Pd-list@iem.at) mailing list > > > > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > > > > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Pd-list@iem.at (mailto:Pd-list@iem.at) mailing list > > > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > > > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > > > > > > > > > > Forwarded message: > > From: Rich E reakinator@gmail.com > > To: Dan Wilcox danomatika@gmail.com > > Cc: pd-list@iem.at List pd-list@iem.at > > Date: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 at 21:11:41 > > Subject: Re: [PD] libpd separating gui from core > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Dan Wilcox <danomatika@gmail.com (mailto:danomatika@gmail.com)> wrote: > > > Ah wait, duh. Of course the graph needs to know positioning, that's how it determines execution order or independent blocks of objects right? > > > > > > On Jan 13, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Dan Wilcox <danomatika@gmail.com (mailto:danomatika@gmail.com)> wrote: > > > > Does the dsp graph rely on positioning? I thought only via connections. I'd imagine the gui wrapper should only worry about positioning and simply update those changes when saving. > > > > > > IMO a separation between GUI and core could/would include position, e.g. objects have their connections mapped by an index, GUI assigns the index to the object based on position. This would allow for some much more sophisticated GUI's, such as 3d, or even a more human-readable text version (json has been mentioned). > > > > > > cheers, > > Rich > > > Forwarded message: > > From: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com > > To: pd-list@iem.at > > Date: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 at 21:23:01 > > Subject: Re: [PD] libpd separating gui from core > > > > On 02/18/2014 04:00 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > Hash: SHA256 > > > > > > On 2014-02-17 22:42, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > > > > No sane person is going to do incremental work without a plan on > > > > GUI software in 2014 that only has a single undo. > > > > > > > > > > luckily the work on the GUI will most likely happen in git, which > > > gives you infinite undo. > > > > > > > > > The question is whether a highly capable dev who isn't already > > entrenched in Pd development would see participation as worthwhile or a > > waste of time. > > > > What I'm saying is that without a clear plan, no sane developer is going > > to undertake the work of adding infinite undo, various GUI improvements, > > or anything else that can't ship as an external. > > > > But yes, technically you can use Git to do yet another GUI rewrite if > > you wish. > > > > -Jonathan > > > > > > > > fmasdr > > > IOhannes > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > Version: GnuPG v1 > > > Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ > > > > > > iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTAyE4AAoJELZQGcR/ejb4p20P/0v4ZnEhRhzuLBzl3Jr8bGRC > > > FSp04pTFlgdIqYPvJJooQA2vWJPHCOcHNPI7u8kDJk3tr+1p1EQ41apK6qFw/xU5 > > > E1093htLiZojq2OCMMO9ZOYbm0DXZZHRmo6nMcG2GXceqCSNA3OMw7p4MRGyVJB1 > > > tS/gyckHowInGDif+3eYKSD6iTZcBFpa/QahaT9kZzTk6HQ4hRtoro5OZ/z97nj6 > > > ILJsDv0xK01I4MF1s9OUsMdVp6itTCI9irHYOMr1IeNbhQMaZrT1z2HtqG9q8NZs > > > Q4p6uKGtGgqIZU5noCrmLnxVde0HlirpxSIDzq+FHJ4b9dQk9pJSI+zKTE8hCs1O > > > sCUFZNi2udd9NwkaAqs1/2msf15WO+GmguMZXzaOiOxcx9FKrVE03IATZ4vqLNCd > > > AucU9dxohcYrqPuzzBhfxmmYk6aLwPaZpamezTeBNCni0qn25X5ZwDWY6YHnd5fO > > > Ck1yvhWKO0g5jVH2Tx4iAgnceKVqe++q5q+XnR8goFPFvxPC3THCGoGaIx4FSgea > > > Zcfy3VymCWByyG57K2yV2R+wr3qwK8TDligtM0XoUB+a0caYr6uq5qMnOTzOJpIt > > > GpwrWerw1957a/ccxpkNpofh4HPosg0oeYRajc1mELY07bLcahgMaIGxIevxvub2 > > > 00RL1CEc36ySA5xLzcsd > > > =M/8o > > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Pd-list@iem.at (mailto:Pd-list@iem.at) mailing list > > > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > > > > > > > > > > Forwarded message: > > From: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com > > To: Rich E reakinator@gmail.com, Dan Wilcox danomatika@gmail.com > > Cc: pd-list@iem.at List pd-list@iem.at > > Date: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 at 22:07:20 > > Subject: Re: [PD] libpd separating gui from core > > > > On 02/18/2014 11:11 PM, Rich E wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Dan Wilcox <danomatika@gmail.com (mailto:danomatika@gmail.com)> wrote: > > > > Ah wait, duh. Of course the graph needs to know positioning, that's how it determines execution order or independent blocks of objects right? > > > > > > > > On Jan 13, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Dan Wilcox <danomatika@gmail.com (mailto:danomatika@gmail.com)> wrote: > > > > > Does the dsp graph rely on positioning? I thought only via connections. I'd imagine the gui wrapper should only worry about positioning and simply update those changes when saving. > > > > > > > > > IMO a separation between GUI and core could/would include position, e.g. objects have their connections mapped by an index, GUI assigns the index to the object based on position. This would allow for some much more sophisticated GUI's, such as 3d, or even a more human-readable text version (json has been mentioned). > > You run into problems when you want to get decent GUI interaction _and_ expect to deliver audio to the soundcard in realtime. > > > > Actually even in 2d without audio the problems manifest themselves pretty quickly. For example: open the svg tiger inside Inkscape and move it around. Notice the clever trick-- the image is broken into tiles and moved starting with the pieces closest to the mouse. Since the user's eye focuses on the mouse pointer, the interaction looks snappy even though it may take half a second or more to finish moving the tile furthest from the pointer. > > > > When you add realtime audio the options are either to err on the side of sluggishness or to be responsive and risk dropouts. If you want it to be responsive in both video and audio then you have to start doing some serious optimizations based on what you think the user cases are for the software. For example, the Inkscape trick is perfect for creating and manipulating vector graphics, but it would be terrible for a 2d animation environment where you'd presumably want the tiger to move as a single unit. > > > > However, many of Pd's current problems don't have a lot to do with that. Tk is pretty good at being sluggish and avoiding dropouts when it doesn't have idle time to do graphics updates. In fact I can move around an svg tiger on a canvas without interrupting the "test audio" patch. Most dropouts related to the GUI have to do with what amounts to a DDOS attack from the core to the GUI. When you flood tcl with data from the socket it can't really do anything else but spend time receiving it. When you add that to whatever Pd core is doing to generate all those messages in the first place, you probably won't have any time left over for delivering audio. > > > > Other toolkits are certainly more efficient than Tk. But if you're dragging an antialiased wire from the top left of the window to the bottom-right, the toolkit needs time to do those redraws. > > > > Finally, I'm not really sure how Open-GL and hardware acceleration plays into all this. For example, Qt Graphics View docs have a note about accelerated graphics possibly adding a performance hit and possibly more latency, but it's only in the context of hardware that doesn't do floating point computations efficiently. I played around with Kivy a bit, which is hardware accelerated but honestly didn't see much of an improvement in cpu usage over comparable stuff in Tkpath. > > > > -Jonathan > > > > > > > > > > > cheers, > > > Rich > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pd-list mailing list > Pd-list@iem.at (mailto:Pd-list@iem.at) > to manage your subscription (including un-subscription) see > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > >