That would have been the function of a versatile [z~] object in my mind. Default would be [z~ -1] or a one sample delay, and a second inlet would allow [z~ -blocksize] to do what we normally do with a [s~] and [r~].
There was one from Zexy that I used for a long time time before I understood how Pd differs from notated DSP, and that you can't actually do things like make a phasor without setting the blocksize to 1
To me the 'hidden' fucntionality of [s~/r~] departs from "The diagram is the program" and its far nicer to make these delays explicit and visible. All the same, thats the way it is and it's probably more pain than gain to upset it all now.
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 09:33:20 -0400 Spencer Russell spencer.f.russell@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Tim Blechmann tim@klingt.org wrote:
unfortunately, this is not a trivial issue.
dynamically changing the signal graph is possible (actually, i had an implementation of that in nova). do the topological sorting in the background and you are fine.
the tricky part are implicit dependencies. see this trivial patch: |adc~| | |send~ foo|
|receive~ foo| | |dac~|
it execution order is ambiguous. either (a) adc-send-receive-dac or (b) receive-dac-adc-send. the actual execution order depends on the implementation. the case (b) introduces one sample block of latency between send and receive, (a) doesn't introduce any latency. without the loss of generality, lets assume that the actual order of the dsp graph is (b). now you add a connection between adc~ and dac~. the topological sorting of the dsp graph may come to the execution order (a). adding the connection, you change the layout of the signal graph, changing the order of send~ and receive~ and therefore its semantics. you actually loose one sample block and therefore have an audio dropout.
if there are any possibilities to circumvent this issue, i haven't found any. for special cases, it works, but whenever implicit dependencies have to be taken into account, things are getting very messy. if you want to have dynamically changing signal graphs, don't use max-like languages. it is not a problem of the implementation, it is a problem of the programming model in general! if you need dynamically changing signal graphs, you should use a system, that is designed for this use case.
cheers, tim
I've actually wondered this for a while: Why is it that send~ and receive~ objects require special treatment instead of being treated the same as any other edge in the graph? I understand that in the current implementation using s~ / r~ pairs is the only way to create a graph with cycles (or fake the effect of one, anyways), but it doesn't seem obvious to me that that is the only valid way to go about it.
If they were just "invisible wires" then cycles would require other treatment, obviously, but it seems like cycles could be "broken" and turned into leaf nodes in the graph automatically, or by requiring the user to put a 1-block delay in explicitly, instead of letting the s~/r~ pair do double-duty and add the possibility for ambiguity as described above.
I suppose I would lean towards the 2nd method, to make sure the break point of the cycle is well defined.
-s
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