hi, posted this before. is a real annoying problem, is there still no solution? when i just open and save a pd-patch, the size changes. i create and save an empty patch. when i look at it in textmode, it says. #N canvas 0 0 452 302 10; if i just open it and save it again, the patch changes to #N canvas 0 0 454 304 10; and after reopening and saving again, it says #N canvas 0 0 456 306 10; i think originally it should be 450 and 300? anyway, this is making me crazy working with GOPs, because they always change their appearance. please someone debug this... or is it a bug in tcl/tk? marius.