I don't know what the general solution would be, to avoid all problems of this kind,
but only in the very case of [wrap], IF i understands things correctly:
- zexy's wrap includes all the functionality of [wrap] and a bit more
- any patch using puredata's [wrap] would work the same if [wrap] were
replaced with [zexy/wrap] (obviously the viceversa is _not_ rue)
- puredata's [wrap] has no advantage over zexy's wrap
So why not do the following?:
- extends puredata (vanilla) 's [wrap] so that it works like zexy's one,
i.e. can use arguments to set range
- (not necessary for the issue being discussed, but necessary for
consistency with puredata's usual conventions): extend both to have two inlets to also set the range
- suppress any warning related to [wrap]
- keep zexys/wrap, which would be _identical_ to puredata's [wrap], just
for backward compatibility with patches written with the current Pd Extended in mind (i.e. people in point 3 of Claude's synopsis)
Wouldn't that eliminate all problems with wrap? Is it undesirable for some reason? Or not possible (perhaps for the impossibility of suppress general warnings in a special case?)?
On 08/17/2010 04:23 AM, Claude Heiland-Allen wrote:
On 17/08/10 01:38, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Aug 16, 2010, at 8:30 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Personally, its much more annoying if you have used [wrap] in your patch, then your patch mysteriously breaks. Hence the error. I could be worded better, so I'm updating it.
can you make it a warn() instead, so that people can use "Find Last Error" for things that are really Errors ? That's especially because "Find Last Error" can really find only the Last one.
a broken wrap or pow~ is really an error in my opinion.
The timeline is important here, because I know that I (and possibly others) have a tendency to remember things in a way that justifies my own current viewpoint:
- puredata had [wrap~] but not [wrap]
- [zexy/wrap] was implemented
- pd-extended imports -lib zexy unqualified
- some people using pd-extended use [wrap] (from zexy)
4a. puredata implemented [wrap] that isn't quite the same 4b. puredata implemented "externals can override internals" (+warnings) 4c. pd-extended removed "externals can override internals" 5. some people write patches using [wrap] (from puredata) 6. pd-extended changes [wrap] to emit warnings 7a. puredata [wrap] users get upset about the warnings from pd-extended 7b. pd-extended [wrap] users get upset about the warnings from puredata
The point here is that, the puredata users in 5 who want to make patches with [wrap] work with both puredata and pd-extended without warnings/error message, now have NO options and the suggested solution from pd-extended BREAKS puredata:
A. using plain [wrap], puredata works fine and pd-extended complains B. using -lib zexy [wrap], puredata complains and pd-extended complains C. using -lib zexy [zexy/wrap], puredata FAILS*, pd-extended works fine
So, given that C is not an option for most puredata users, pd-extended should certainly not be recommending this as the way to fix patches, at least not unconditionally (afaik in some modes -lib zexy [wrap] behaves the same as puredata [wrap], but it can do more?)
Other solutions might be: I. allow externals to override internals, like puredata II. extend pd-extended's [wrap] to behave just like -lib zexy [wrap] when zexy is loaded/imported III. extend puredata's [wrap] to behave just like -lib zexy [wrap] and then port the changes to pd-extended
--[[-- opinion
The pd-extended users in 3 who want to make patches with [wrap] work with both puredata and pd-extended should have known that they were using an extension, but sadly pd-extended's decision to load everything automatically to "make life easier for users" caused this mess in the first place, in the end making life harder for everybody.
The incompatible suggestion smacks of pd-embrace-and-extend... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace_and_extend
--]]-- opinion
(*) with puredata and pd-zexy from Ubuntu Lucid 'universe': $ pd -stderr -verbose -lib zexy Pd version 0.42-5 compiled 20:01:18 Jan 5 2010 [snip] tried ./zexy.l_ia64 and failed tried /usr/lib/pd/extra/zexy.l_ia64 and failed tried ./zexy.pd_linux and failed tried /usr/lib/pd/extra/zexy.pd_linux and succeeded warning: class 'wrap' overwritten; old one renamed 'wrap_aliased' warning: class 'abs~' overwritten; old one renamed 'abs~_aliased'
©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©© © the zexy external 2.1 © © (l) forum::für::umläute © © compiled: May 30 2008 © © send me a 'help' message © ©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©
tried /home/claude/zexy/wrap.l_ia64 and failed tried /usr/lib/pd/extra/zexy/wrap.l_ia64 and failed tried /home/claude/zexy/wrap.pd_linux and failed tried /usr/lib/pd/extra/zexy/wrap.pd_linux and failed tried /home/claude/zexy/wrap/wrap.l_ia64 and failed tried /usr/lib/pd/extra/zexy/wrap/wrap.l_ia64 and failed tried /home/claude/zexy/wrap/wrap.pd_linux and failed tried /usr/lib/pd/extra/zexy/wrap/wrap.pd_linux and failed tried /home/claude/zexy/wrap.pd and failed tried /usr/lib/pd/extra/zexy/wrap.pd and failed tried /home/claude/zexy/wrap.pat and failed tried /usr/lib/pd/extra/zexy/wrap.pat and failed zexy/wrap ... couldn't create
I hope this all makes sense, and that a more appropriate solution can be reached before the final release version of Pd-extended-0.42.
Claude