hey ho
hi roman
let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a point.
thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
for example this http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
If I remember well Matju was also molested by this. to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a deeper degree in the conversation. It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough it was followed by a funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in our work with sensors, diy, electronica, computer music, web programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!.
I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until the end ;)
since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously couldn't be established.
i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile, argentina, ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high mountains)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha
and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to this. and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like some good internet radio
http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php
I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular complaint against this list although I can remember some situations outside the list:
- once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do that you don't have to do that.
-once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.
-once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting (!)
-once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals
but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.
it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.
Alejandra
On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, pueblo@mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
yves, I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe
(maybe
you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
hi David and all, I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some examples of greasy jokes:
yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this could be a basis for a real discussion.
From: João Miguel Pais jmmmpais@googlemail.com Date: Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
- do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a lightbulb? 2:
One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k. [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last weeks]
i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in the first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that insult feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others, felt, that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in order to question the ongoing discussion.
accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case, though i do not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list, regardless of the intention.
I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about the facts is just a bit too much for me to keep silent.
i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here.
roman
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