Hello,
Yes, thank you Christof for your notices,there are a lot of ideas about PdSnake ( https://git.iem.at/pd/pdsnake/-/blob/master/docs/ , which Miller can laugh about sometimes ;-)
We started this repository in case someone want to implement it, maybe a place also for ideas ideas in there...:
mfg winfried
Am Donnerstag, 9. Dezember 2021, 16:44:33 CET schrieb Christof Ressi:
Lots of nice ideas! I will definitely look at your abstractions for inspiration.
On 09.12.2021 16:34, Thomas Grill wrote:
Hi Christof, i didn't know about the initiative, but good that this is on a todo list! Many of your ideas listed here are implemented in my mc project. One drawback is definitely that the send~/receive~ based architecture can't cope with varying block sizes.
There are other problems concerning state preservation of mapped objects upon changed in the signal graph which i think can't be solved within the abstraction-based system.>
FWIW, after talking to Winfried about Pd-snake a while ago, I worked out a backwards compatible multichannel solution in my sketch book but never came around making a proof of concept implementation (yet). AFAICT, it should be possible to do.>
It is possible to also implement a detection whether a signal has been generated through mc._out (and represents a multichannel transport), or it is a normal signal. This can be done using some watermark, but clearly, this will not be 100% safe.>
- [mc~ join <nchannels>] join several (single-channel) input signals into
a multi-channel output signal.>
i named that mc.pack~ Currently, there is also mc.concat to join two multi-signals.
- [mc~ split <nchannels>] splits a multi-channel input signal into
invidual (single-channel) output signals>
there is mc.unpack~, but also mc.index / mc.slice to select channels (for example interleaved pairs) out of the multi-signal.>
- [mc~ sig <nchannels>] creates a multi-channel signal from several float
inlets.>
not implemented yet, but easy to do
- [mc~ <obj>] tells an object to operate in multi-channel mode. If the
object doesn't support it (or knows about it), it operates as if the inputs were single-channel and Pd prints a warning.>
mc.map maps (currently only mono) signal objects onto the multi-signal. Other mappings (most notably stereo) should be possible. mc.effect maps the mc multi-signal to an abstraction with many signal inputs/outputs, like vstplugin~
best, Thomas
On 09.12.2021 09:41, Winfried Ritsch wrote:
Am Sonntag, 5. Dezember 2021, 17:22:44 CET schrieb Thomas Grill:
Hi all, i'd like to make you aware of an abstraction library i have made because of working more with multi-channel loudspeaker systems lately.
Dealing with many parallel signal connections was cumbersome, so i have come up with the mc library in order to abstract multi-channel processing. It consists of pure-Pd abstractions using dynamic object creation and it is NOT related or compatible with the similarly named Max approach. I hope there are no similar libraries out yet, i have not come across anything related.
There was an discussion 2013 on a workshop with Miller on the IEM and a solution was proposed:
"Pd-snake was an idea 2013 within a workshop with Miller Puckette at the IEM to extend Pd with multichannel signal connection, which is backwards compatible, but has not been implemented yet."
The main idea (trick) was to hold an parallel info about a signal which multichannel or not... to be upward compatible and add some multichannel natives object to collect and distribute.
In the meantime I did a sime multichannel objects for Ambisonics and other purposes as abstraction library only, using dynamic patching and used it in some projects (mainly Auditory Environments) until today:
mfg winfried
Please check it out at https://github.com/grrrr/mc https://github.com/grrrr/mc
It is definitely not more than alpha quality and currently has only basic functionality (as much as i have needed so far). But i'd like to put it out to the public since i don't know how much i will be able to work on it, and i'd like to hear about your feedback and suggestions for further functionality.
There are rough edges, for example message boxes popping up when closing patches with dynamic modifications, but i am not sure to which extent these effects can be handled on the patcher level.
A technical note: The connection logic works both on signal and message connections (the latter over send/receive). In principle message-only would be possible, but signals seem to be necessary for the correct ordering of the message graph. Right now the same information is sent on signals (2 integer numbers per vector: ID and channel count) and messages. There is definitely a lot to optimize, maybe the signal connections can be dummy, without any information sent at all. However, the connection logic overhead seems to be absolutely negligible compared to the DSP load.
Please let me know what you think.
best, Thomas
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