This might be relevant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_names_and_symbols_(popular_music)
On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 12:31 AM, William Huston williamahuston@gmail.com wrote:
No worries, Matt!! One thing I love about this community is, that while there is complete love for newbies--
(e.g. my first (and ugliest!) snare patch I posted to the Facebook group got like 30 likes!!)
-- I feel there is also a gentle demand (and sometimes not so gentle) for intellectual rigor, scientific investigation, completeness in the solution. A kind of technical aesthetic. I really appreciate that.
So I do appreciate all of these comments --
Miller your comment about Varese made me laugh... when I dreamed up that ugly tetrachord of all minor seconds, I immediately thought of Frank Zappa and the "Zappa Cluster". I think he studied with Varese....
But I am caught between dealing with a broad robust complete solution, and also something I can reasonable a) get my head around, and b) deal with using my existing controllers.
I just want to play around with some chord maps, like Stephen Mugglin's. And just see where that goes. I have an existing pad controller, and I think I can map a subset of it. Pick a chord with my left had on the pad controller, and pick a tonic with the keyboard on the right. I want to build a sophisticated Autoharp with PD :)
I will keep in mind general applicability, and completeness, which I hear from your comments.
However-- any instrument or song made with it, or the scale mode it uses... is a limited subset of possibilities. Like Iambic Pentameter. Or Haiku. It's an artificially imposed limitation on the field of all possibilities.
It's not all possible chords --whatever that means! e.g. combinations of notes made of tone timbres composed of sinusoids with certain mathematical relationships between partials... but it is a *subset* of these.
And while yes I appreciate the links to the microtonal stuff, I just cannot deal with that now! Ha ha. I love listening to it-- like this guy... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWCwMW48FO4 But it's *way *beyond my present understanding... I'm sticking with 12TET for the moment... while acknowledging other realms exist.
In some ways, it seems the limitations of structure (like 12 TET or Iambic Pentameter, or only using a subset of all possible chords, etc) can inspire the movements within the creative work.
So I am actually fine with dealing with just the chords on the Mugglin Chord Map. I understand that this is a very incomplete solution.
Many thanks for the link to Tonnetz!
Again, I appreciate all of the guidance and suggestions! BH
On Tuesday, November 3, 2015, Matt Barber brbrofsvl@gmail.com wrote:
I hate to be a pedant/ass about this, but it's important to indicate the
scope of application. Most music (I'm not sure about "most songs") doesn't use chords at all – chords are mostly a Western phenomenon (with some important exceptions, e.g. Central Africa).
All 29 tetrachord types can be found in: Western classical music of the last 100 years (at least) Jazz And if you count melodic structures as well: South Indian (Carnatic) ragas Western classical music of the last 300 years (at least) Prog Rock etc. That cluster is sometimes called the chromatic tetrachord, 0123, 4-1,
the B-A-C-H tetrachord, or something like "the four-note chromatic cluster." It functions in lots of music, but probably not the kind modeled by the map you linked to.
If you're looking for chord maps, do you know about Tonnetze? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonnetz
It says almost nothing about syntax -- the map you linked to is a syntax
graph -- but it does systemize some tonal relations.
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 1:59 PM, William Huston williamahuston@gmail.com
wrote:
Thanks Matt!
Yeah, I'm pretty good with the mathematics of permutations and
combinations...
My goal is to be able to generate (and hopefully identify, given a list
of MIDI notes) any given chord/inversion. Which somewhat restricts these to "musical" chords.
I think a cluster, a tetrachord of all minor 2nds is not terribly
useful and probably doesn't have a name. Yes it is good to characterize it for completeness :)
My main purpose now is to build an instrument which allows me to
traverse a "chord map", which generally follows how most songs are structured. With an easy way to change the tonic, make inversions, and maybe throw in some substitutions.
I have a 4x4 drum pad controller, which I want to use to play a drone
chord, and move through a map, while I play a lead with my right hand.
I really like what this guy has done (but there are many maps like
this):
http://mugglinworks.com/chordmaps/genmap.htm
On Tuesday, November 3, 2015, Matt Barber brbrofsvl@gmail.com wrote:
I just remembered this Julian Hook article on Music Theory Online, if
you want to find out more about how to find the number of chords of a given size:
http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.07.13.4/mto.07.13.4.hook.html
On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 3:00 PM, William Huston <
williamahuston@gmail.com> wrote:
Matt suggested I forward this side discussion (and attachment) to
the list.
N.B., Matt is referring by number to the list of 55 intervals I
identified in my original, quoted below. However, it was an HTML list, and the numbering got munched during quoting. Sorry if that makes this slightly unclear. --BH
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Matt Barber brbrofsvl@gmail.com Date: Monday, November 2, 2015 Subject: chord libraries? To: William Huston williamahuston@gmail.com
We also eliminate transpositions, so in this case 55 is the same
chord as 1, 18 and 12 are the same, and so forth. If we eliminate all transpositions and inversions, we end up with 12 trichords:
012* 013 014 015 016 024* 025 026 027* 036* 037 048* I marked the 5 that are self-inversional with a star. They're all
"musical," but again it depends on the type of music you're looking at. All 19 trichords (eliminating transpositions and respacing) have been in use as simultaneities since the late 1800s, but some more than others. 012 didn't get a huge foothold until the first decade or two of the 20th century.
See the attached; it does eliminate inversions, but it wouldn't be
that hard to make that a user preference. [list-setclass] outputs the normal form as I described above, and the interval-vector one outputs a catalog of the chromatic intervals contained in the chord (eliminating unisons, octaves and inversions). In mod 12 there are 6 chromatic intervals, counting minor seconds and major sevenths as the same -- the output just gives you the number of each interval in the chord from 1 to 6 (or whatever if you choose a different modulus).
Matt PS -- if you like, you can bump this response up to the list. On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 12:28 PM, William Huston <
williamahuston@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Matt. Yes interested.
FTR, if we do not eliminate inversions, I count 55 3-tone chords
in 12TET:
111000000000 110100000000 110010000000 110001000000 110000100000 110000010000 110000001000 110000000100 110000000010 110000000001 101100000000 101010000000 101001000000 101000100000 101000010000 101000001000 101000000100 101000000010 101000000001 100110000000 100101000000 100100100000 100100010000 100100001000 100100000100 100100000010 100100000001 100011000000 100010100000 100010010000 100010001000 100010000100 100010000010 100010000001 100001100000 100001010000 100001001000 100001000100 100001000010 100001000001 100000110000 100000101000 100000100100 100000100010 100000100001 100000011000 100000010100 100000010010 100000010001 100000001100 100000001010 100000001001 100000000110 100000000101 100000000011
But roughly 2/3's are inversions, so if we exclude inversions as
being the same chord, then yes we get 55*.3333 =~ 19. I'm guessing at least one of these is an inversion of itself which is why 55 is not evenly divisible by 3.
Anyway, I'm not sure how many of these are really musical. I would
think of those 19, only about 8-10 are commonly used.
Thanks, interested in whatever you have :)
BH
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