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Help with panning and spatialization objects, VBAP and stuff.
by Alexandre Torres Porres 19 Dec '23

19 Dec '23

Ok folks, this is a long email of me trying to figure out different options for panning and spatialization, and with some questions. I'm planning to offer some spatialization objects for ELSE. With the new cool features of MultiChannel Connections in Pd, I wanna offer objects that can spatiaze with an arbitrary number of channel outputs in a single connection. I see I'll have to get into "ambisonics", but first I am checking "VBAP", and some options we already have out there in the world. About VBAP by V. Pulkki see: http://legacy.spa.aalto.fi/research/cat/vbap/ So, there's a "vbap" library that used to come with the late Pd-extended. This is a control object, for 2D and 3D configurations that you set with messages. It outputs lists with speaker number and gain, so you can use [route] to send gain values for each output. It has the parameters of: "azimuth" (which is for both 2D and 3D and represents the angular distribution around the listener); "elevation" (only for 3D and represents speakers above or below); and "spread", which spreads the sound to adjacent speakers. Now, the disposition of speakers in this way should be equidistant around the listener, for a ring or semi ring distribution in 2D, and a dome or semi dome in 3D! There's an external for SC which seems to work the same way, with the same parameters, but it already takes the input and it spits the spatialized channel outputs. There's also a couple of externals by Pierre Gullot at https://github.com/pierreguillot/vbap - The vbap.coeff object is very similar to extended's [vbap], but it has no spread value (unfortunately) and [vbap~] is a nice and much more convenient solution that takes the audio input and already pans it, like in SC, but it also misses the "spread" parameter. I don't know why it misses this, seems like a cool feature... There's also the CICM tools library, that I uploaded to deken a few years ago, it has an external that is also named [vbap~], but it's different from Pierre's. First, it is only 2D! But then, in the 2D world, it is more versatile and has more features! You don't need to set the speakers in a circular ring or partial ring that are equidistant to the center point! So yeah, you can configure a speaker disposition in a rectangular room and do other crazy stuff. It does not have a 'spread' parameter per se, but you can move the sound in the 2D space with cartesian coordinates (or polar) and you can also set a central disk radius. I have to study better how these different parameters actually work, but it kinda 'spreads' the sound over different speakers. Nonetheless it doesn't really seem like an actual "spread" parameter and I wonder if such a parameter could also be included here. Anyway, As you can see, this is the "odd one out", and I wonder why... I kinda like its versatility better. As for a 3D version, I haven't seen one that would work like this object where you could have a 3D point in the 3D space... By the way, CICM tools has 2 other objects, but for ambisonics: [ambipan~] and [ambicube~]. The [ambipan~] object is much much like [vbpan~], so it spatializes in the 2D plane and you can set a specific point, not just an angle. It seems just to change the algorithm/calculation. The [ambicube~] object is highly related to [ambipan~], but 3D and you can set a point in the 3D space. The caveat is that it is fixed to a specific 8 speaker configuration, unfortunately. All the other objects can have arbitrary number of speakers and configuration. The AudioLab library has a [pp.spat8~] object as a vanilla abstraction. It's fixed to 8 speakers, not surprisingly, but you can set speaker position arbitrarily with a GUI. You can set a cartesian point and it has a spread parameter. So it relates to things from above, but I bet it has nothing to do with "VBAP". It's just a panner with a spread parameter, right? So, I really know nothing about VBAP or Ambisonics, but I'm starting to offer some spatialization objects for ELSE. I had so far only some very modest routing options, like [xgate2~], which you can use to route to different speakers with crossfading. I also added now a spread parameter and a MultiChannel connection aware version. I already have a new object that is like SuperCollider's PanAZ. It's similar to [xgate2~] but it's circular, and you can only set the angle and a spread parameter. That is, you cannot set a cartesian coordinate. The speakers are equidistant and equally spaced in terms of angles. This is actually highly related in terms of parameters to extended's [vbap] in the 2D version, the only restriction is that you cannot arbitrarily set the disposition of speakers, but it's also a start. I believe it can't compare to an actual "VBAP" though. I have [pan4~] which is not really good as I see it. It's like SuperCollider's Pan4 object and you can set a cartesian coordinate. There's also [pan8~] in ELSE, which expands from [pan4~] and has a spread parameter and it is also a simplified version of [pp.spat8~]. I could make it with an arbitrary number of speakers and MultiChannel aware, but it would restrict to a circular distribution, with equidistant speakers and also equally divided in angle disposition. It would, nonetheless, expand from the [pan~] object, and offer another dimension besides only angle/azimuth (like PanAZ from SC). I should offer just this more versatile object than. First question is, should this be called a "spatializer" and not a "panner"? It's a bit like 2D VBAP but it doesn't really compare, right? Next step would be to offer a real VBAP external. Final step would be getting involved with "ambisonics". I could start with a 2D VBAP, based on options we have, but I would like to be able to gather the best of all worlds I found. - Different room shapes with speaker position, not only angles for a ring or semi ring setup - Being able to set a point in the plane and not only an 'azymuth' panner. - Being able to use an 'actual' spread parameter. What I don't understand is why only CICM tools' [vbapan~] object has the option to set a cartesian point. And also why it can set an arbitrary disposition of speakers that is not just a single ring. Does anybody know why? Is the spread parameter in here somehow in a different or can I also include it? Does anybody have other external options of similar objects that I mentioned here for me to look at? It can be a MAX object or whatever. Also, good reference for spatialization tutorials and stuff is highly welcome. Thanks

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[PD-announce] Pd 0.54-1 released
by Miller Puckette 13 Dec '23

13 Dec '23

To Pd-announce: Pd version 0.54-1 is available from http://msp.ucsd.edu/software.htm or (source only) via github: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data This updates Pd to work correctly on MacOS 14. There are various other bug fixes and documentation updates. cheers Miller _______________________________________________ Pd-announce mailing list Pd-announce(a)lists.iem.at https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce

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Tips for compiling Pd 0.54-1 & Else 1.0-0 rc-10 external under a Fresh installation of RPi OS 12 Bookworm 64-bit
by Linux Rouen Normandie 12 Dec '23

12 Dec '23

As of today both are not directly available, Pd 0.54-1 in RPi repos and Else 1.0-0 rc-10 in Deken, so we have to compile them on our RPis. Prior starting the Linux procedures you will have to add some packages to a fresh RPi OS 12 64-bit (Release 5.1 December 2023) from its Add/Remove Software. 1- Pd 0.54-1 Download its source: https://msp.ucsd.edu/Software/pd-0.54-1.src.tar.gz . Then add some packages (in my case) to RPi OS from its Add/Remove Software: - libasound2-dev, - autotools-dev, and - libjack-jackd2 + libjack-jackd2-dev, if you want to use JACK. Follow the compilation and installation instructions found in this link: https://msp.ucsd.edu/Pd_documentation/x6.htm . Last but not least, in Pd menu -> Help -> Find externals -> Deken menu -> Edit -> Preferences change Default platform: Linux-armv8-32 -to- User-defined platform: Linux-arm64-32. 2- Else 1.0-0 rc-10 Download its source: https://github.com/porres/pd-else/archive/refs/tags/v.1.0-rc10.tar.gz . Then add some packages (in my case) to RPi OS from its Add/Remove Software: - libfluidsynth3 + libfluidsynth-dev, and - cmake + cmake-data. Follow the building and installation instructions found in this link: https://github.com/porres/pd-else#installing-else . Everything is running smoothly, except my overclocked RPi 400 is reaching its graphical ressource limits when using to much GOPs in the same patch. Thanks to IOhannes et Alexandre. Joseph Gastelais

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Re: [PD] Latency question (non-audio/midi/osc)
by Sam Ross 11 Dec '23

11 Dec '23

Further to the reply/request from Christof I have opened an issue on github regarding an option to disable artificial control signal/MIDI latency: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/issues/2159 I hope it is clear that it is a feature request, I was not able to add a label. Sam

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help needed: "conditional" help patches
by Christof Ressi 11 Dec '23

11 Dec '23

Hi, I have a library with /optional /multi-channel support. If you try to create the object with the "-m" flag and Pd does not have multi-channel support, it would print an error message. This works all fine, but there's a tricky problem with the help patches. Of course, I want to document the multi-channel feature, but I don't want the help patch to print errors when loaded in older Pd versions. The only solution I see at the moment is to have two version of the help patch and then register the appropriate version in the setup function with "class_sethelpsymbol". However, this would be a maintenance nightmare. Also, the help patches would obviously need to have different names, so only one of them would match the name of the object. Has anyone run into a similar situation? Any ideas? Christof

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Latency question (non-audio/midi/osc)
by Sam Ross 11 Dec '23

11 Dec '23

Hello list, Is it (still) the case that Pd's midi buffer is connected/synced with the audio buffer? (Sorry if any terminology incorrect). If this is the case, is it correct that the best way to get lowest latency control signals is to run control data in a separate instance that is removed from any audio processing, with the audio settings set for as low a latency as possible? So, delay 0 ms, I presume? And would altering the sample rate and block size also have an effect? Thanks for any help you can give in assisting my understanding. Sam.

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Pd 0.54-1 Compilation: ALSA Errors under RPi OS 12 Bookworm with PipeWire
by Linux Rouen Normandie 08 Dec '23

08 Dec '23

Hello List, 1- Doing Pd 0.54-1 compilation under RPi OS 11 Bullseye 32-bit on an RPi 400 was okay: pd 0.54.1 is now configured Platform: Linux Float size: default Debug build: no Universal build: no Localizations: yes Source directory: . Installation prefix: /usr/local Compiler: gcc CPPFLAGS: -DNDEBUG CFLAGS: -ffast-math -fno-finite-math-only -funroll-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -O3 -g -O2 LDFLAGS: INCLUDES: LIBS: -lpthread -ldl External extension: pd_linux External CFLAGS: -fPIC External LDFLAGS: -Wl,--export-dynamic -fPIC Deken identifier: linux-arm64 fftw: no wish(tcl/tk): wish watchdog: yes audio APIs: PortAudio JACK ALSA OSS midi APIs: ALSA OSS libpd: no 2- I installed yesterday the new Raspberry Pi OS 12 Bookworm 64-bit, with PipeWire set by default, on my Rapsberry Pi 400. Trying to compile Pd 0.54-1 is not okay with ALSA gone for both AUDIO & MIDI: pd 0.54.1 is now configured Platform: Linux Float size: default Debug build: no Universal build: no Localizations: no Source directory: . Installation prefix: /usr/local Compiler: gcc CPPFLAGS: -DNDEBUG CFLAGS: -ffast-math -fno-finite-math-only -funroll-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -O3 -g -O2 LDFLAGS: INCLUDES: LIBS: External extension: pd_linux External CFLAGS: -fPIC External LDFLAGS: -Wl,--export-dynamic -fPIC Deken identifier: linux-arm64 fftw: no wish(tcl/tk): wish watchdog: yes audio APIs: PortAudio JACK OSS midi APIs: OSS libpd: no And at the 'make' step of the compilation I get: portaudio/src/hostapi/alsa/pa_linux_alsa.c:52:10: fatal error: alsa/asoundlib.h: Aucun fichier ou dossier de ce type 52 | #include <alsa/asoundlib.h> | ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ compilation terminated. make[2]: *** [Makefile:746 : portaudio/src/hostapi/alsa/pa_linux_alsa.o] Erreur 1 make[2] : on quitte le répertoire « /home/joe/Desktop/Pd/pd-0.54-1/portaudio » make[1]: *** [Makefile:539 : all-recursive] Erreur 1 make[1] : on quitte le répertoire « /home/joe/Desktop/Pd/pd-0.54-1 » make: *** [Makefile:442 : all] Erreur 2 Q: How can we fix that for using Pd with PipeWire (an upcoming standard) under the latest RPi OS? Note1: I know we can step back from PipeWire to PulseAudio in Raspi-Config => 6 Advanced Options => A7 Audio Config (choice between PulseAudio and PipeWire-default). Note2: Pd 0.53-1 (puredata-0.53.1+ds-2) from the RPi OS 12 64-bit repos doesn't have these ALSA issues (true for both Audio & Midi) even with PipeWire active. Thanks, Joseph Gastelais

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Re: [PD] Pd-list Digest, Vol 225, Issue 15
by Yann Seznec 08 Dec '23

08 Dec '23

Thank you very much for testing! I’m really pleased you got it working. Everything seems to be working for me now too, similar to what you describe. I’m not entirely sure what I changed to make it work, but I’m happy enough with the current status to decide that everything is fine. All the best, Yann > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 12:27:55 +0100 > From: IOhannes m zmoelnig <zmoelnig(a)iem.at> > To: pd-list(a)lists.iem.at > Subject: Re: [PD] alsa crashing on recent Pi OS > Message-ID: <a1b445b9-1434-4e98-a0e4-bc728ac87f00(a)iem.at> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > On 12/4/23 21:23, Yann Seznec wrote: >> >> >> I?ll answer both of these questions at once?to be more clear, the most >> obvious test of the Pi issues I was having is to launch >> ?humanCaller_test.pd? from this project: >> https://github.com/yannseznec/humanCall >> <https://github.com/yannseznec/humanCall> >> >> It is a granular patch that will just play a stream of grains on startup. >> >> When I was encountering issues, this patch would stop working after >> somewhere between 30-90 seconds, and print many instances of the error >> ?restart alsa output alsa xrun recovery apparently failed?. >> >> I am no longer having this issue, after compiling Pd 0.54.1 myself on >> the 32 bit Pi OS 11. > > since I was just playing along with an RPi4 i thought i'd give it a try. > > > > hardware: Raspberry Pi 4 (Model B, 4GB RAM; iirc!) > using the onboard soundcard > operating system: IEMberry > graphics: running without monitors, but with a full Desktop connected to > via VNC > Pd: Pd-0.53-1, as packaged > sound: ALSA > > IEMberry is our in-house RPi4 distribution, it's basically a Raspberry > Pi OS (32bit) with loads of audio and development tools preinstalled. > https://iemberry.iem.at/ > i'm using iemberry11.20231017 (as can be currently downloaded on the > webpage), which is based on Raspberry Pi OS "Bullseye" 11 (the "with > desktop and recommended software" flavour). > The image was generated Mid-October, so it obviously did *not* use > "Raspberry Pi OS (Legacy)" as can be found on the RPi homepage right > now, as the latter was released 2023-12-05. Instead, the base image was > the last release of Rasbian available back then, which turns out to be > have been released 2023-05-03). > > IEMberry provides only very few packages by itself, and instead relies > on the Debian packages. It also has Debian/backports and the official > Raspberry Pi OS repositories enabled (with Debian being preferred). > > IEMberry comes with Pd from Debian/bullseye-backports pre-installed: > ``` > $ pd -version > Pd-0.53-1 ("") compiled for Debian (0.53.1+ds-2~bpo11+1) on 2023/01/31 > at 6:55:52 UTC > ``` > > in order to get your patch running, I did: > - disconnect the [print button] object > - switch the Output Device to "bcm2835 Headphones (hardware)" (for > whatever reason it preferred the "HDMI 1" output, even though no monitor > is connected; probably some VNC thing) > - make sure to disable audio input (as the onboard soundcard has no adc) > > i've run the "humanCaller_test.pd" patch for about half an hour without > any problems, using ALSA as the backend. > > seeing that everything works, i've stopped Pd, launched jackd (again > making sure to output to the headphones instead of the non-existant > monitor) and tried with JACK as backend. > after another 10 minutes I decided that everything works great. > > gmadsr > IOhannes > >

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Re: [PD] Pd-list Digest, Vol 225, Issue 4
by Yann Seznec 07 Dec '23

07 Dec '23

> > >> - Trying to run a small granular patch like this >> <https://github.com/yannseznec/humanCall> or a sampler/looper patch like >> this <https://github.com/yannseznec/soundDestroyer> > > when you say "like this" do you mean, that exactly these two patches > fail? (I'm just trying to make sure that if I test with these patches it > actually makes sense) > > > Hello Yann, > > For testing them on my RPi 400 / RPi OS 11 32-bit / Pd 0.54.1, which Pd > file(s) to download from your GIT site? > > Then if more than one Pd file, which one for launching 'humanCall' and > 'soundDestroyer'? > > ————— I’ll answer both of these questions at once…to be more clear, the most obvious test of the Pi issues I was having is to launch “humanCaller_test.pd” from this project: https://github.com/yannseznec/humanCall It is a granular patch that will just play a stream of grains on startup. When I was encountering issues, this patch would stop working after somewhere between 30-90 seconds, and print many instances of the error “restart alsa output alsa xrun recovery apparently failed”. I am no longer having this issue, after compiling Pd 0.54.1 myself on the 32 bit Pi OS 11. I am not entirely sure, but I think I may have mistakenly been using the 64 bit Pi OS 11 when I was having the issues. I am also starting to think that there may be simply too many variables here to actually identify any issues, so I apologise for any goose-chasing I am encouraging.

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Re: [PD] Pd-list Digest, Vol 225, Issue 4
by Yann Seznec 04 Dec '23

04 Dec '23

> >> Hello, >> >> On 04.12.23 10:55, Yann Seznec wrote:> As a side note, perhaps someone >> more knowledgeable than me could update >>> the version of Pd that is currently accessible from apt-get? I didn't >>> mind compiling from source but it is pretty handy to be able to just >>> do apt-get when setting up a new Pi. > > i'm not sure i understand the question here. > > you can always get the version of Pd by just running 'pd -version' (if > you still have the "puredata-core" package installed, run '/usr/bin/pd > -version' to not accidentally run your self-compiled one. I am very likely not understanding how these things work, or explaining myself correctly! What I was trying to say was that it would be great if running the command “sudo apt-get install puredata” could install the latest version of Pd (0.54.1) on Pi OS. As far as I can tell, running that command currently installs v0.51.4. Perhaps this is because I am running an older Pi - 32 bit OS 11 on a Pi 3. In any case I compiled Pd myself in order to get the latest version. I don’t know the process for updating the packages that are available from apt-get, I just thought it would be something useful to do.

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