Pd-list June 2018

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41 participants
49 discussions

Re: [PD] standard paths for externals
by Dan Wilcox 14 Jun '18

14 Jun '18

> On Jun 14, 2018, at 10:21 AM, pd-list-request(a)lists.iem.at wrote: > > From: Roman Haefeli <reduzent(a)gmail.com <mailto:reduzent@gmail.com>> > To: Pd-List <pd-list(a)lists.iem.at <mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at>> > Subject: Re: [PD] standard paths for externals > Message-ID: <0b50bb13c24e850d65000e980526f8234a138f61.camel(a)gmail.com <mailto:0b50bb13c24e850d65000e980526f8234a138f61.camel@gmail.com>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hey Dan > > Thanks for trying to explain. > > On Thu, 2018-06-14 at 01:18 +0200, Dan Wilcox wrote: >> There seems to be a bit of FUD in this "discussion." > > Maybe things aren't that bad as they were presented. For my part, I > lost track of who favors what kind of design. > >> Some things from my perspective: >> >> 1. Pd's library/path mechanism is largely oriented toward *local* >> libs first and *global* ones later, ie. download externals to >> individual project (sub)folders. > > Pd already used to work like that for quite a while, no? > >> I believe the centralized loading was added later on in Pd-extended. > > I don't understand what you mean by that. Pd-extended already pre- > loaded a subset of the installed externals (do you mean this?), which - > imho - was a bad design choice. It meant there was one person deciding > what comes pre-loaded and what not. Yes and continuing that mechanism by installing things into more "standard places" is perhaps less ideal, even if it is easy, ie. ~/Library/Pd. >> If we follow the "programming language model", this might be similar >> to installing a Python egg locally or globally. I don't see how >> supporting both modes of working is a problem. > > Me neither. > >> 2. IOhannes convinced me, over time, that the "stdpath" loading >> mechanism used by the "extra" folder is problematic as it adds too >> many (sub) search paths by default and it becomes harder to >> tell/control what's being loaded. > > Forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand. Does Pd now look into > extra's subfolders? Currently I still have to actively load stuff with > [declare -stdlib] or [declare -stdpath]. It always has, that's one of the "standard paths" aka those that [decalre's -stdpath] uses. These are different from the "user search paths" which are those specified in the Path dialog and/or via [declare -path]. Similarly, [declare -stdlib] search for lib names *only* in the "standard paths" while [decalre -lib] looks only in supplied "user search paths". This is where great confusion comes and arguments over what is a path and how things should/can be searched. Our utltimate solution is to move to dis-favor the separation and simply have [declare -path] and [dlecare -lib] search both the "standard paths" and the "user search paths", first locally, then the "suer paths", and finally the more global "standard paths". >> The "better way" is for people to specify those externals paths >> directly, either with the user search paths and/or declare. >> There is much less ambiguity as to what's going on at the loss of >> "just put things in this place" ease. > > So paths added by the users will be searched by deken? So instead of > specifying paths to the library root - as we currently do it - adding a > path in the future means adding a searchpath that is container for many > libraries? And deken will find libraries inside the newly added > searchpath root? By deken, do you mean [declare]? Deken is unrelated to path searching, all it does is download things to a place, either the ~/Documents/Pd/externals directory or some other places specified by you. > >> 3. As suggested by Alexandre, I wrote a PR to help address how >> declare search when using -path & -lib by having them search along >> user search paths as well: https://github.com/pure-data/pure- <https://github.com/pure-data/pure-> >> data/pull/205. I feel this is a much closer method of using declare >> to how other programming languages handle such things, ie. Lua's >> require. > > OK, I hopefully understand now. Am I right in thinking that declare's > -stdlib, -stdpath flags are considered superfluous because -lib and > -path will scan all searchpaths in a local -> global order, including > the parent patch's folder? That's the general idea. As I mention before, it's hard to tell which to use since people tend to put things in different places and, as you mention in a previous email, where is the "right" place to put things. I think the "right place" should be wherever you want as long as [declare] can find it *without* requiring the distinction between -path and -stdpath. > >> 4. The Pd Documents path (aka ~/Documents/Pd) is simply a helper >> location for beginners. It is only a regular user search path >> added by default (when desired) and does not search subfolders. > > Now you challenge my understanding of the term searchpath again. I > thought the new idea is that you will be able to load libraries with > [declare] from user-added searchpaths? What's the point of creating > that folder then? The folder is created to give you a place where externals can be downloaded. Previously, deken either installed externals inside the app bundle's /extra folder on macOS (hidden "standard path") or asked you *each time* where to put things. This simply automates where things can go for beginners, removing a pain point and follows the Arduio/Processing model. The next step is the downloaded external needs to be added to the user search paths for things to work. This is why deken asks you if you want to add the path after you download the external and it's sort of a kludge until something like the [declare -path] fix can be integrated. It makes things "work" for now for beginners (and people missing extended) with two clicks. I know IOhannes is not a fan but, again, it's a stopgap. >> Nobody has to use it and it can be disabled at any time. > > My beef with it is that - the way it is presented to me - it suggests > to do things that create confusion later. > > As a new user: > > "Do you want to create ~/Documents/Pd" > > Yes > > "Do you want to add it to the searchpaths?" > > Yes > > When downloading stuff with deken: "Do you want to install 'mylib' to > ~/Documents/Pd?" > > Yes > > Now, I'm going to load mylib with [declare -{std}path mylib] in my > patch which fails. > > What am I missing here? The fact that this won't work with [declare] yet... unless you install to a "standard path", ie /extra etc. Again, we're trying to move away form this model. > >> 5. Yes, the macOS hiding the ~/Library folder is problematic for many >> users as they don't know how to show it and are afraid to modify >> things within it. I've recently taught classes to beginners that are >> just learn gin the concept of a "file system" as they grew up mainly >> using "mobile phones" > > I don't see how deken requires users to have a notion about a > filesystem. Ideally, I'd use deken to tell _what_ I want to install. > Ideally, I'd tell my patch through [declare] _what_ to load. All the > _where_ stuff shouldn't be a question neither at installing nor loading > time. The _where_ stuff should only matter when the user tweaks their > environment: "I'd rather put my 4.5 TB of Pd externals on my external > drive ". Yeah, and that's the whole point. You should be free to put things wherever and you are. The issue is that [declare -lib] currently doesn't look beyond local paths. The whole file system thing is about creating a basic place for beginners who can later on learn more about the path mechanisms and be bale to handle it themselves. We're trying to find a way for people who "just want to make stuff" to do so without running into the (from what I can tell) immense pain of moving from Pd-extended to suddenly having to manage externals themselves. Please don't discount this as supporting beginners should be the health part of *any* open source project, otherwise it's just a bunch of "grey beards" complaining about fewer and fewer "newbs." -------- Dan Wilcox @danomatika <http://twitter.com/danomatika> danomatika.com <http://danomatika.com/> robotcowboy.com <http://robotcowboy.com/>

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Pure Data and Bela - newb
by Wendy Van Wynsberghe 14 Jun '18

14 Jun '18

Hi, Ten years ago I learnt the beginnings of Pure Data - and now I have thrown myself into the deep end --> I'm trying to do a fairly simple Pure Data project on Bela (https://bela.io/) - and failing gloriously. I have a Pure Data Patch that works on my computer, with keys from the keyboard. Here: https://cloud.constantvzw.org/s/EcsZzoNte8k54xQ/download?path=%2F&files=mic… <https://cloud.constantvzw.org/s/EcsZzoNte8k54xQ> Current simple wish on Bela: - pushbutton0 on digitalIn3 records sound from the microphone plugged into the line in - pushbutton2 on digitalIn4 stops recording - pushbutton3 on digitalIn5 plays sound When I connect physical buttons and translate to Bela, my buttons bounce. The Bela developer active on the forum proposed a debounce patch https://github.com/BelaPlatform/Bela/blob/dev-modular/examples/13-Salt/DuoW… - which I'm trying to push into my patch, but without succes. On the Bela forum I explain what I have been doing https://forum.bela.io/d/570-pure-data-digital-ins-from-arduino-logic-to-bel… ---> I'm pretty sure the problem lies with my beginner pd-qualities, that's why I have turned to this mailinglist ---> here's my last patch, with abstraction and with bouncy buttons https://cloud.constantvzw.org/s/EcsZzoNte8k54xQ/download?path=%2F&files=mic… Would someone/the list be willing to follow this through - that would be a great help! Greetings, Dywen -- * 00 32 (0)476 / 89 06 58 * * http://wvw.collectifs.net * * * * * * * * * * C O N S T A N T V Z W

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standard paths for externals
by Max 13 Jun '18

13 Jun '18

I'm looking for the canonical paths to install externals for the different platforms and only can find information which seems to be outdated, like here: http://puredata.info/docs/faq/how-do-i-install-externals-and-help-files At least deken seems to install into ~/Documents/Pd/externals instead. There has been discussions about this frequently, but I can't seem to find the results of it. Was there something which was agreed upon? For which paths should an installer (ore make install) of an external look for? Thanks m.

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max number of high speed usb3 cameras connected to Linux
by Csaba Láng 12 Jun '18

12 Jun '18

Dear list, is there any physical or software limitation (except the number of USB connectors built in) of the numbers of webcams I can connect to a Linux computer? Preferably Ubuntu, but not necessary. My plan is to connect 7 high frame rate cameras to one computer to analyse a 3D space. Thanks for the hints. Best, Popesz

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Pd and GEM on Udoo x86?
by rene beekman 11 Jun '18

11 Jun '18

Does anyone have any experience with running Pd and GEM on an Udoo x86? I've searched the archives, but only found references to what appears to be an earlier model of the Udoo. Also, there appears to have been a special build for the Udoo available from Miller's site, but that seems to have stopped with version 46.6. What we need to do is to build an installation that plays full HD video + sound triggered by a simple rotary sensor. Each video would be 2-5 minutes in length. In order to fit the projection precisely on the projection surface, we'll probably need a corner-pin-like functionality as well. Fairly straightforward, but since the installation needs to run in a museum setting, we're looking for a solution that can be switched on and off simply by switching power on and off. Any information or pointers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

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3D object importer to GEM
by Csaba Láng 09 Jun '18

09 Jun '18

Hi list, I know that theres is an other object to import into GEM .obj files than [model]. I want to use COLLADA with baked animation but can not find the proper object. Please advice! Popesz

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Re: [PD] apple deprecates opengl
by Dan Wilcox 08 Jun '18

08 Jun '18

Deprecated in this case will most likely mean it will still be part of macOS for quite a while. There are simply too many existing applications using it. GEM will still build and work for the foreseeable future (5+ years). We're discussing it on the Openframeworks list as well: http://dev.openframeworks.cc/pipermail/of-dev-openframeworks.cc/2018-June/t… > On Jun 8, 2018, at 2:44 AM, pd-list-request(a)lists.iem.at wrote: > > Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 20:55:25 -0300 > From: Alexandre Torres Porres <porres(a)gmail.com <mailto:porres@gmail.com>> > To: Pd-List <pd-list(a)lists.iem.at <mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at>> > Subject: [PD] apple deprecates opengl > Message-ID: > <CAEAsFmhcP6WsoXTbF3T3e9X8zb5S0Rvhk8Cv_UxR2fwPzBOjoA(a)mail.gmail.com <mailto:CAEAsFmhcP6WsoXTbF3T3e9X8zb5S0Rvhk8Cv_UxR2fwPzBOjoA@mail.gmail.com>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > What is the impact of this in Pd? > > https://www.anandtech.com/show/12894/apple-deprecates-opengl-across-all-oses <https://www.anandtech.com/show/12894/apple-deprecates-opengl-across-all-oses> -------- Dan Wilcox @danomatika <http://twitter.com/danomatika> danomatika.com <http://danomatika.com/> robotcowboy.com <http://robotcowboy.com/>

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Re: [PD] LAC 2018 workshops - pmpd and data structures
by João Pais 08 Jun '18

08 Jun '18

Both workshops are prepared in very gradual steps, and for beginners for these 2 fields. Previous knowledge of both fields isn't necessary at all; only knowledge of Pd is relevant. Best, Joao 2018-06-05 3:00 GMT+02:00 Manuel Haible <lacuna_(a)gmx.net>: > Hi, > im exited, just started recently to work with pmpd. > Wondering about your other workshops on data structures how beginner > orientated is it? Or does or have more a "think different", change your > mind, interpreting data in new creative ways aproach? > See you, manuel > > > > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 05. Juni 2018 um 02:06 Uhr > > Von: "João Pais" <jmmmpais(a)gmail.com> > > An: PD-List <pd-list(a)lists.iem.at> > > Betreff: [PD] LAC 2018 workshops - pmpd and data structures > > > > Hello list, > > > > this year at the LAC there will be several events and works around/using > > Pd. I just wanted to mention the two workshops I'm preparing: > > > > Introduction to pmpd > > http://lac.linuxaudio.org/2018/pages/event/28/ > > > > > > Understanding and being creative with Pure Data’s data structures > > http://lac.linuxaudio.org/2018/pages/event/26/ > > > > > > More informations in http://lac.linuxaudio.org/2018/pages/schedule/ > > > > Best regards, > > > > João Pais > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pd-list(a)lists.iem.at mailing list > > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/ > listinfo/pd-list > >

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apple deprecates opengl
by Alexandre Torres Porres 08 Jun '18

08 Jun '18

What is the impact of this in Pd? https://www.anandtech.com/show/12894/apple-deprecates-opengl-across-all-oses

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strange behaviour with dynamic patching and folder declaration
by Liam Goodacre 08 Jun '18

08 Jun '18

I'm getting strange behavior on my system when trying to dynamically create an object located in a patch inside my Externals folder. The object creates if GOP is turned off, but not if it is turned on. Can anybody else replicated this? 1. Extract the attached "test-obj" folder to your Externals folder, or some other folder that is globally declared. 2. You can now create the object [test-obj] on a new canvas, even though the "externals/test-obj" folder is not declared.* 3. Download the attached "test.pd" file to another location (ie. Desktop) and open it. 4. This patch has one instance of [test-obj] in it, and instructions for how to dynamically create a new abstraction inside [test-obj]. On my machine, the new abstraction will instantiate only if [test-obj] has GOP turned off. If GOP is on, PD can't find "test-abstraction.pd" inside the "test-obj" folder. * It seems that PD will search inside a folder for a file of the same name. Ie. when the folder "test-obj" is placed within the main "externals" folder, I can create the object [test-obj] but not the object [test-abstraction] I assume that this is a feature? Either way, the buggy behavior goes away if I declare the "test-obj" folder.

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Pd-list June 2018