Pd-list April 2008

pd-list@lists.iem.at

132 participants
205 discussions

pix_mix flicker
by marius schebella 01 Apr '08

01 Apr '08

Hi, when I use pix_mix with video or live input I have to do strange rendering order to avoid flicker. (see attached patch) I have to render the left inlet before the right, although the left inlet triggers. if I do it the other way round then I get occasional flicker. anybody has similar problems? (os x, gem from march 29). marius. #N canvas 671 22 489 589 10; #X obj 114 364 hsl 128 15 0 1 0 0 empty empty empty -2 -6 0 8 -262144 -1 -1 0 1; #X floatatom 112 387 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 41 464 rectangle 4 3; #X obj 41 437 pix_texture; #X obj 279 140 bng 25 250 50 0 empty empty empty 0 -6 0 8 -262144 -1 -1; #X obj 279 169 openpanel; #X msg 279 193 open \$1; #X obj 52 267 pix_video; #X msg 52 244 dimen 320 240; #X obj 52 224 loadbang; #X obj 224 268 pix_film; #X obj 124 162 t a a; #X obj 41 386 pix_mix; #X obj 42 69 gemwin; #X msg 42 48 create \, 1; #X obj 287 244 loadbang; #X msg 287 268 auto 1; #X obj 124 137 gemhead; #X connect 0 0 1 0; #X connect 1 0 12 2; #X connect 3 0 2 0; #X connect 4 0 5 0; #X connect 5 0 6 0; #X connect 6 0 10 0; #X connect 7 0 12 1; #X connect 8 0 7 0; #X connect 9 0 8 0; #X connect 10 0 12 0; #X connect 11 0 7 0; #X connect 11 1 10 0; #X connect 12 0 3 0; #X connect 14 0 13 0; #X connect 15 0 16 0; #X connect 16 0 10 0; #X connect 17 0 11 0;

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Google SoC: call for mentors and project ideas
by Georg Holzmann 01 Apr '08

01 Apr '08

Hallo! We discussed at the LAC that we would like to apply again this year for google's summer of code project, which is about to start today (http://code.google.com/soc/2008/). I started a wiki at: http://puredata.info/dev/summer-of-code/GoogleSummerOfCodeIdeas/ where everyone can put in ideas and wishes. Of course you can also write your ideas to the mailinglist for discussion and I will add them afterwards to the wiki. Every pd developer who wants to support the project but is no student anymore is invited to join as mentor, since the number of sponsored projects by google depends on the number of mentors and students. So please put in your ideas and apply as mentor and student ! One more question: Who of the mentors would like to make the main communication with google ? Because someone has to fill out the application (the material from last year is also at http://puredata.info/dev/summer-of-code/GoogleSummerOfCodeIdeas/ and http://puredata.info/dev/summer-of-code/SummerOfCode ). I would suggest Hans or IOhannes or anyone else who wants to spend some time with it ;) LG Georg

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2 abstractions
by Luke Iannini (pd) 01 Apr '08

01 Apr '08

Here are another couple abstractions from a night of building things that needed them: YALA (yet-another-list-abstraction): [list-split-at], which splits a list into multiple lists each time it encounters a delimiter, so [a b c . d e f . g h i j( into [list-split-at .] will spit out 3 lists, [a b c(, [d e f( and [g h i j(. Requires list-abs, but is pure-pd. (and Frank as always if you like it you are welcome to take it for list-abs). and [beat2frac], which takes a note division like [1/16( and outputs the fraction of a quarter note as a float (so, that would give 0.25). A bit odd, but it makes it very convenient to multiply by the length of one beat in seconds (60 / BPM) and get the input beat length in seconds. It also supports triplets (e.g. [1/16T( or [1/16t(, would give 0.1666), and arbitrary divisions like [3/17( (gives 0.705822). Requires list-split-at, list-abs and zexy. Cheers Luke

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declare
by marius schebella 01 Apr '08

01 Apr '08

hi folks, still not roger with declare. first, I realized, that the helpfile for declare only exists in pd 0.41. but even with that help, I think declare is broken (at least on osx.) I tested it on 0.40.3 (extended) and on 0.41-2 (vanilla). is [import] really the same as [declare -lib]? (broken too, see bugreport) and [classpath] also does not really add anything. is it really the same as [declare -stdpath]? are both objects (import and classpath) also always loaded/and saved first as declare? [[btw. can't we use that method to have all delread~ saved and loaded at the beginning of a patch?]] a bang message into [import moocow] gives print: symbol ..//Applications/Pd-0.40.3-extended-20080222.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../extra/moocow which has some strange characters in the beginning of the string. maybe that is the problem? I also wonder how the word "library" is defined in this context. is "flatspace" for example a library? [declare -lib flatspace] would this "load" all external object classes in that folder? or is there a flatspace meta lib file? I also don't understand why many objects (import itself for example) are in different locations at the same time... but that is another question. best, thanks for reading, marius.

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Re: [PD] PD-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 143
by Justin Robert 01 Apr '08

01 Apr '08

Hi dear how are you? That was my Marina impersonation. It sounded just like you in my head. I like your voice. So okey here's me prices. 4x6 one that is very close of the white tree is called Lili's Tree Long Beach, CA and it is $26.13, the other one that is 4x6 and is the skinny tree is called Justin's Tree Long Beach, CA and is $26.12, All of the 5x7s are $52.25 and are untitled, the Love shack and Living Bike are $104.50. The Looking up at leaves and the God Clouds Sunset are both $209.00 Good luck tomorrow on your first official open day!!!!!!!! And an awesome week!!!!! You are the best! Seriously, ARTpool rules! Tell mom I said thanks for all the help too and for cutting out my shirt tag. Have a good night my new old pal. Justin -------------------------------------------------- From: <pd-list-request(a)iem.at> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 11:22 AM To: <pd-list(a)iem.at> Subject: PD-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 143 > Send PD-list mailing list submissions to > pd-list(a)iem.at > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pd-list-request(a)iem.at > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pd-list-owner(a)iem.at > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of PD-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: GEM problems (IOhannes m zmoelnig) > 2. Re: Compiling netsend~/netreceive~ on intel mac (bsoisoi) > 3. pd extended on windows with no installer (altern) > 4. Re: pd extended on windows with no installer (Roman Haefeli) > 5. Re: conflict between PD and tascam us-122 (stefano tedesco) > (IOhannes m zmoelnig) > 6. Re: PD and new ASUS and Everex mini laptops: experiences? > (Ben Lau) > 7. Re: Compiling netsend~/netreceive~ on intel mac > (Hans-Christoph Steiner) > 8. Re: pd extended on windows with no installer > (Hans-Christoph Steiner) > 9. Reminder: PD VideoPedia (giucant) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:00:49 +0200 > From: IOhannes m zmoelnig <zmoelnig(a)iem.at> > Subject: Re: [PD] GEM problems > To: Peter Forde <smokemorecrack(a)hotmail.com>, PDlist list > <pd-list(a)iem.at> > Message-ID: <47F0C461.6000206(a)iem.at> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > hi. > > Peter Forde wrote: >> IOhannes, >> >> I read on the list that you would be willing to help people with crash >> problems in GEM on windows XP and 2000. I will explain first my problem. >> As if you can help with a few of them I would be very grateful. > > let's have a look, but in general it is better to ask at the list. > the more people read it, the more can help and profit from it.... > (so i re-direct this to the list) > >> >> I was running pdextended 0.38.4 and most things were running fine. I had >> problems in one particular patch. To store a large number of images in >> pix_buffer I figured pix_yuv would solve the problem as RGBA was too >> large and would cause a crash after a certain amount. Pix_yuv then leaves >> lots of blue and red dots throughout any image or pix_video. Might you >> know the problem here? > > seems like you are getting into a saturation problem with the rgba->yuv > (and/or vice-versa) problem. > does the problem occur with special brightnesses only? > and make sure that your yuv-image has an even width. > > it could also be a problem with SIMD code. > you could try using [pix_yuv] and [pix_rgba] explicitely and send them a > [simd 0( message. > > apart from that, i have been using [pix_buffer] with 3GB of yuv-images > on linux without weird colors. > >> >> After posting to the list I was advised to upgrade to the newer version. >> I can not even open pix_video in this as it immediately crashes. I would >> be happier using the latest version of pdextended and so if you have any >> advice that would be great. > > which version of Gem is this? (i don't use pd-extended and i don't use > w32, so i don't know) > which version of DirectX? which version of w32? which camera? > > what is "immediately"? creating the [pix_video] object? turning on > rendering with [pix_video] created? sending "open" to [pix_video]??? > > could you try the latest available version (e.g. test-version) of Gem > for w32 from http://gem.iem.at? (just replace the Gem.dll in your > current installation; probably back-up the old Gem.dll before you do so) > > >> >> Also after updating , including the registry, only GEM and xsample will >> load. On 0.38.4 only GEM, xsample and pmpd would load. I would love to >> use all the externals. Maybe this is something for Hans but I thought I'd >> ask while at it. > > afaik, you should wipe the registry before doing an upgrade. > but it is really a question for the pd-extended gang. > > fgmadsr > IOhannes > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 07:40:05 -0400 > From: bsoisoi <bsoisoi(a)mac.com> > Subject: Re: [PD] Compiling netsend~/netreceive~ on intel mac > To: "pd-list(a)iem.at Pure Data" <pd-list(a)iem.at> > Message-ID: <7B147992-748B-4C5B-B81A-15864F61509E(a)mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > Have you been able to build netsend~/netreceive~? After a few tweaks, > I was able to get the full piece built. You can also grab the > binaries from Hans' latest i386 OS X build: > http://autobuild.puredata.info/auto-build/2008-02-22/ > > In order to get the two pieces to build, you'll need to augment two > things. The error you're seeing below is due to your machine not > being too friendly with some ASM code in the float_cast.h file. This > bit of code is well above my head, but if we remove the float_cast.h > optimizations, they'll build. With the snippet below, you can either > place it within the Mac OS X section of float_cast.h, or delete > everything and put this in it: > > #define HAVE_LRINT_REPLACEMENT 0 > #include <math.h> > #define lrint(dbl) ((int) (dbl)) > #define lrintf(flt) ((int) (flt)) > > You were also correct in that you need to have the DARWININCLUDE var > inside the makefile point to your pd src, like so: > DARWININCLUDE = -I/Users/bz/Downloads/puredata-extended/pd/src - > Iinclude > > Cheers, > ~brandon > > On Mar 16, 2008, at 2:50 PM, Philip Rivera wrote: > >> I get the exact same thing. >> >> cc -DPD -DUNIX -DMACOSX -O2 -Wall -W -Wshadow -Wno-unused >> -Wno-parentheses -Wno-switch -Iinclude -o netsend~.o -c netsend~.c >> /var/folders/3L/3LX5MRuIHOG1akXB+RYg1U+++yU/-Tmp-//ccc4rLii.s:614:no >> such instruction: `fctiw %st,%st' >> /var/folders/3L/3LX5MRuIHOG1akXB+RYg1U+++yU/-Tmp-//ccc4rLii.s:615:no >> such instruction: `stfd %st, -32(%ebp)' >> make: *** [netsend~.pd_darwin] Error 1 >> >> >> Steffen Juul wrote: >>> >>> On 16/03/2008, at 0.38, Philip Rivera wrote: >>> >>>> I've been trying to compile Olaf Matthews netsend~ and netreceive~ >>>> objects for pd for an intel mac. Has anyone had any success with >>>> this, or has binaries already compiled. >>> >>> What error do you get? >>> >>> I can compile netreceive~ fine. Only need to alter the DARWININCLUDE >>> variable in the makefile to point to the Pd source code, if it >>> doesn't >>> already. >>> >>> Wrt. netsend~ i get the following error: >>> >>> cc -DPD -DUNIX -DMACOSX -O2 -Wall -W -Wno-unused -Wno-parentheses >>> -Wno-switch -I/My/Path/To/pd/src -Iinclude -o netsend~.o -c >>> netsend~.c >>> /var/tmp//cchTlZrk.s:597:no such instruction: `fctiw %st,%st' >>> /var/tmp//cchTlZrk.s:598:no such instruction: `stfd %st,-32(%ebp)' >>> make: *** [netsend~.pd_darwin] Error 1 >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> PD-list(a)iem.at mailing list >> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> >> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:30:12 +0200 > From: altern <altern2(a)gmail.com> > Subject: [PD] pd extended on windows with no installer > To: the PureData - mailinglist <pd-list(a)iem.at> > Message-ID: <47F0D954.80101(a)gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > hi > > > I am going to teach a short intro to PD at a uni where it is really > difficult to get permission to install applications on the computers. > > is there a way to have pd extended to fully work on a windows machine > without running the installer? I need it to load the externals on > startup, this is important. > > I tried copying it from my machine but it does not load the externals i > need and i cannot introduce them manually into the startup because i > dont have permissions to mess with the registry. I could run PD from a > bat file but i dont like this solution, the windows console pops up and > experience tells me this is scary for this students. > > is there any simple solution to this? > > thanks! > > enrike > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:04:26 +0200 > From: Roman Haefeli <reduzierer(a)yahoo.de> > Subject: Re: [PD] pd extended on windows with no installer > To: altern <altern2(a)gmail.com> > Cc: the PureData - mailinglist <pd-list(a)iem.at> > Message-ID: <1206968666.5488.2.camel(a)localhost.localdomain> > Content-Type: text/plain > > On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 14:30 +0200, altern wrote: >> the windows console pops up and >> experience tells me this is scary for this students. > > i think, that especially students should be able to get confronted with > the scary reality of a popping-up console window ;-) > > roman > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Der frÃ¼he Vogel fÃ¤ngt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: > http://mail.yahoo.de > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:52:52 +0200 > From: IOhannes m zmoelnig <zmoelnig(a)iem.at> > Subject: Re: [PD] conflict between PD and tascam us-122 (stefano > tedesco) > To: Stefano Tedesco <info(a)stefanotedesco.net> > Cc: pd-list(a)iem.at > Message-ID: <47F0ECB4.5090907(a)iem.at> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Stefano Tedesco wrote: >> hi, >> i've done what you told me >> at sturt up it says >> -audiobuf 20 -blocksize 256: can't load library > > probably you should put it into the "startup flags" section of the > 'file->startup...' dialog rather than the "libraries-to-load" section. > > fgamdr > IOhannes > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:15:01 +0800 > From: "Ben Lau" <xbenlau(a)gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [PD] PD and new ASUS and Everex mini laptops: > experiences? > To: "alberto.zin(a)poste.it" <alberto.zin(a)poste.it> > Cc: pd-list <pd-list(a)iem.at> > Message-ID: > <f9a7555e0803310815y8e198ffm8973ec88d72640c2(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Hi Alberto, > > I own an Eee PC with puredata installed. The graphical chip is not > bad. However, I am quite new to puredata, just tested with few > examples with very simple effect. If you can suggest testing source , > I could help to test and report the result. > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 4:40 PM, alberto.zin(a)poste.it > <alberto.zin(a)poste.it> wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> has anyone tried the two ultraportable laptop from ASUS and >> Everex with PD ? >> >> http://eeepc.asus.com/global/product.htm -> Eeepc >> http://www.everex.com/ -> CloudBook >> >> They are both Linux-equipped and configurable. >> Since they are offered in a nice price range (300-400$) >> I was wandering what are the capabilities regarding >> audio and, why not, graphics. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Alberto Zin >> --- >> http://puredata.org/Members/AlbertoZ >> http://alberto.zin.googlepages.com/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> PD-list(a)iem.at mailing list >> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> >> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:37:10 -0400 > From: Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans(a)eds.org> > Subject: Re: [PD] Compiling netsend~/netreceive~ on intel mac > To: bsoisoi <bsoisoi(a)mac.com> > Cc: "pd-list(a)iem.at Pure Data" <pd-list(a)iem.at> > Message-ID: <BBBC9EDA-88DA-4995-90E2-D2E3AE8C8695(a)eds.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > > I added these to SVN already, if someone adds them to externals/ > Makefile, then they can included in the Pd-extended builds. > > http://pure-data.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pure-data/trunk/externals/ > olafmatt/netsend~/ > > .hc > > On Mar 31, 2008, at 7:40 AM, bsoisoi wrote: >> Have you been able to build netsend~/netreceive~? After a few tweaks, >> I was able to get the full piece built. You can also grab the >> binaries from Hans' latest i386 OS X build: >> http://autobuild.puredata.info/auto-build/2008-02-22/ >> >> In order to get the two pieces to build, you'll need to augment two >> things. The error you're seeing below is due to your machine not >> being too friendly with some ASM code in the float_cast.h file. This >> bit of code is well above my head, but if we remove the float_cast.h >> optimizations, they'll build. With the snippet below, you can either >> place it within the Mac OS X section of float_cast.h, or delete >> everything and put this in it: >> >> #define HAVE_LRINT_REPLACEMENT 0 >> #include <math.h> >> #define lrint(dbl) ((int) (dbl)) >> #define lrintf(flt) ((int) (flt)) >> >> You were also correct in that you need to have the DARWININCLUDE var >> inside the makefile point to your pd src, like so: >> DARWININCLUDE = -I/Users/bz/Downloads/puredata-extended/pd/src - >> Iinclude >> >> Cheers, >> ~brandon >> >> On Mar 16, 2008, at 2:50 PM, Philip Rivera wrote: >> >>> I get the exact same thing. >>> >>> cc -DPD -DUNIX -DMACOSX -O2 -Wall -W -Wshadow -Wno-unused >>> -Wno-parentheses -Wno-switch -Iinclude -o netsend~.o -c netsend~.c >>> /var/folders/3L/3LX5MRuIHOG1akXB+RYg1U+++yU/-Tmp-//ccc4rLii.s:614:no >>> such instruction: `fctiw %st,%st' >>> /var/folders/3L/3LX5MRuIHOG1akXB+RYg1U+++yU/-Tmp-//ccc4rLii.s:615:no >>> such instruction: `stfd %st, -32(%ebp)' >>> make: *** [netsend~.pd_darwin] Error 1 >>> >>> >>> Steffen Juul wrote: >>>> >>>> On 16/03/2008, at 0.38, Philip Rivera wrote: >>>> >>>>> I've been trying to compile Olaf Matthews netsend~ and netreceive~ >>>>> objects for pd for an intel mac. Has anyone had any success with >>>>> this, or has binaries already compiled. >>>> >>>> What error do you get? >>>> >>>> I can compile netreceive~ fine. Only need to alter the DARWININCLUDE >>>> variable in the makefile to point to the Pd source code, if it >>>> doesn't >>>> already. >>>> >>>> Wrt. netsend~ i get the following error: >>>> >>>> cc -DPD -DUNIX -DMACOSX -O2 -Wall -W -Wno-unused -Wno-parentheses >>>> -Wno-switch -I/My/Path/To/pd/src -Iinclude -o netsend~.o -c >>>> netsend~.c >>>> /var/tmp//cchTlZrk.s:597:no such instruction: `fctiw %st,%st' >>>> /var/tmp//cchTlZrk.s:598:no such instruction: `stfd %st,-32(%ebp)' >>>> make: *** [netsend~.pd_darwin] Error 1 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> PD-list(a)iem.at mailing list >>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ >>> listinfo/pd-list >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> PD-list(a)iem.at mailing list >> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ >> listinfo/pd-list > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---- > > Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to > realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either > change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:39:51 -0400 > From: Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans(a)eds.org> > Subject: Re: [PD] pd extended on windows with no installer > To: altern <altern2(a)gmail.com> > Cc: the PureData - mailinglist <pd-list(a)iem.at> > Message-ID: <3FA2EB6E-B95E-4916-BD55-82F63DD550F8(a)eds.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > > If you can't install the included pd-settings.reg, then you'll have > to use a .bat file. I can't think of any way around that, > unfortunately. You could use the pure:dyne LiveCD if those machines > let you boot from the CDROM drive. > > Try double-clicking the included pd-settings.reg and see if it let's > you. It should install into the user's preferences, so most machines > allow write access to that, even when they are locked down. > > .hc > > On Mar 31, 2008, at 8:30 AM, altern wrote: >> hi >> >> >> I am going to teach a short intro to PD at a uni where it is really >> difficult to get permission to install applications on the computers. >> >> is there a way to have pd extended to fully work on a windows machine >> without running the installer? I need it to load the externals on >> startup, this is important. >> >> I tried copying it from my machine but it does not load the >> externals i >> need and i cannot introduce them manually into the startup because i >> dont have permissions to mess with the registry. I could run PD from a >> bat file but i dont like this solution, the windows console pops up >> and >> experience tells me this is scary for this students. >> >> is there any simple solution to this? >> >> thanks! >> >> enrike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> PD-list(a)iem.at mailing list >> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ >> listinfo/pd-list > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---- > > I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and > during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man > for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - General > Smedley Butler > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:33:32 +0200 (CEST) > From: giucant <giucant(a)yahoo.com> > Subject: [PD] Reminder: PD VideoPedia > To: PD List <pd-list(a)iem.at> > Message-ID: <644775.58840.qm(a)web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Dear all, > you are invited to add contents to PureDataVideopedia > channel on YouTube. You can upload original stuff > (performances, visuals, tutorials, workshops...) or > manage other youtube videos in playlists. > > http://it.youtube.com/PureDataVideopedia > http://it.youtube.com/profile_play_list?user=PureDataVideopedia > > user: PureDataVideopedia > pass: puredata > > Actually we have 31 subscribers and 27 friends. > > Greetings from Milano! > > j > > > ___________________________________ > Scopri il Blog di Yahoo! Mail: trucchi, novit?, consigli... e la tua > opinione! > http://www.ymailblogit.com/blog/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > PD-list mailing list > PD-list(a)iem.at > to manage your subscription (including un-subscription) see > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > > End of PD-list Digest, Vol 36, Issue 143 > ****************************************

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Pd-list April 2008