Hey all
In order to make Pd as accessible as possible also to casual Pd users on Windows, I think it should come as an installer (as other software does as well). That's one of the things I think Pd-extended did right.
What's the stance about it from Miller and other people?
I just went ahead and tried to do it myself. Please check: http://www.netpd.org/~roman/tmp/nsis_installer/
It's based on the NSIS scripting language and compiler. My silent hope is that the reason for Pd currently being delivered as zip is simply laziness, and that you, Miller, would be willing to adopt the script. I'd welcome any feedback.
Roman
Since the transition from Pd-extended to 'Pd-deken' is a currently discussed topic, I try again.
I know some Pd users on Windows and I would like to help them with the transition from Pd-extended to Pd-vanilla. It seems for them Pd coming as zip is already a culprit when they're used to Pd-extended doing the whole setup automatically. Manually setting up file associations and start menus is a lot of work that they think (and I do so as well) should be automated. We treat other platforms with a lot of care (it seems you can get Pure Data as FreeBSD port) and I think Pd on Windows deserves the same amount of care.
I tried to do all the work and would welcome some feedback.
Roman
On Tue, 2015-10-20 at 15:20 +0200, Roman Haefeli wrote:
Hey all
In order to make Pd as accessible as possible also to casual Pd users on Windows, I think it should come as an installer (as other software does as well). That's one of the things I think Pd-extended did right.
What's the stance about it from Miller and other people?
I just went ahead and tried to do it myself. Please check: http://www.netpd.org/~roman/tmp/nsis_installer/
It's based on the NSIS scripting language and compiler. My silent hope is that the reason for Pd currently being delivered as zip is simply laziness, and that you, Miller, would be willing to adopt the script. I'd welcome any feedback.
Roman
On 2015-11-10 11:29, Roman Haefeli wrote:
I tried to do all the work and would welcome some feedback.
i think it's one of the beautiful sides of Pd that you do *not* need an installer (even on windows!) and can run it from any media you like (even if it's a read-only CD).
probably the best thing would be to have a menu-entry (maybe hidden in the "preferences"), where people could enable things like file-association and startup menus with the click of a button).
fgmasdr IOhannes
On Tue, 2015-11-10 at 11:59 +0100, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
On 2015-11-10 11:29, Roman Haefeli wrote:
I tried to do all the work and would welcome some feedback.
i think it's one of the beautiful sides of Pd that you do *not* need an installer (even on windows!) and can run it from any media you like (even if it's a read-only CD).
I don't get your point at all. The same applies to Debian GNU/Linux and it's mostly you who put _a lot_ of work into making things go smooth on those platforms (i.e. Debian and derivatives). Why are we discussing it with regards to Windows at all? Don't Windows users deserve the same amount of convenience?
"Not necessary" is not at all equivalent to "comfortable". I definitely don't want to teach my Windows friends SysAdmin-Skills just to make the install Pd-vanilla in a way that suits them.
probably the best thing would be to have a menu-entry (maybe hidden in the "preferences"), where people could enable things like file-association and startup menus with the click of a button).
It would be possible, sure. But name me one single other software that does it like that. It seems pretty established practice to let the package maintainer care about those things.
Roman
On 2015-11-10 12:12, Roman Haefeli wrote:
On Tue, 2015-11-10 at 11:59 +0100, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
On 2015-11-10 11:29, Roman Haefeli wrote:
I tried to do all the work and would welcome some feedback.
i think it's one of the beautiful sides of Pd that you do *not* need an installer (even on windows!) and can run it from any media you like (even if it's a read-only CD).
I don't get your point at all. The same applies to Debian GNU/Linux and
[...]
it's mostly you who put _a lot_ of work into making things go smooth on those platforms (i.e. Debian and derivatives). Why are we discussing it with regards to Windows at all? Don't Windows users deserve the same amount of convenience?
"Not necessary" is not at all equivalent to "comfortable". I definitely
??
i guess there is some misunderstanding here: i find it *much more* convenient/comfortable to be able to download a file from the internet and run it, without going through an install procedure and without needing administrator priviliges. that latter part i consider important, e.g. in the context of campus W32 installations, where users usually don't have the priviliges to *install* software.
this is something that the current zipfile achieves: download, extract, run! the only drawback i see is that you have to *extract* (but that's reasonable enough for a multi-file project like Pd), something that can be avoided for smaller projects (e.g. putty.exe).
as for "The same applies to Debian GNU/Linux": yes and no. it's rather impractical to ship binaries for linux, that are not specifically tailored to the system (due to the varied nature of linux distributions). but if you want to have a pd on your system without having admin priviliges, then you can do that easily enough: ./configure && make && ./src/pd
i'm pretty sure this is *not* what you want for w32 users who don't have admin rights.
probably the best thing would be to have a menu-entry (maybe hidden in the "preferences"), where people could enable things like file-association and startup menus with the click of a button).
It would be possible, sure. But name me one single other software that does it like that.
irfanview.
It seems pretty established practice to let the package maintainer care about those things.
in any case, i don't think that the two (an installer, and being able to register file associations from within Pd) are exclusive.
fgmasdr IOhannes
On Tue, 2015-11-10 at 12:27 +0100, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
in any case, i don't think that the two (an installer, and being able to register file associations from within Pd) are exclusive.
Sure. I also don't think that providing a zip _and_ an installer are exclusive. I agree with the advantages you mentioned about the zip under certain circumstances. In other cases an installer seems more feasible and my impression still is that there _is_ a part of the user base with a desire for an installer. I can help in making and maintaining an installer as easy as possible, that's what I can offer.
Roman
Roman Haefeli:
On Tue, 2015-11-10 at 12:27 +0100, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
in any case, i don't think that the two (an installer, and being able to register file associations from within Pd) are exclusive.
Sure. I also don't think that providing a zip _and_ an installer are exclusive. I agree with the advantages you mentioned about the zip under certain circumstances. In other cases an installer seems more feasible and my impression still is that there _is_ a part of the user base with a desire for an installer. I can help in making and maintaining an installer as easy as possible, that's what I can offer.
Roman
This is an ancient debate here, and a key reason of why I made Pd-extended. I put the energy into working code rather than rehashing old debates. The way forward is to split out the libs from Pd-extended and use deken to make a new maintainable, community version of Pd. It only needs a name and a tiny bit of organization. The code is all there.
.hc
IOhannes m zmoelnig:
On 2015-11-10 11:29, Roman Haefeli wrote:
I tried to do all the work and would welcome some feedback.
i think it's one of the beautiful sides of Pd that you do *not* need an installer (even on windows!) and can run it from any media you like (even if it's a read-only CD).
probably the best thing would be to have a menu-entry (maybe hidden in the "preferences"), where people could enable things like file-association and startup menus with the click of a button).
A .zip for Windows is very useful. But that is a separate question. Windows users expect installers. And making an installer does not prevent also a .zip file from being made and used. Pd-extended has both for Windows.
.hc
On 2015-11-10 11:29, Roman Haefeli wrote:
We treat other platforms with a lot of care (it seems you can get Pure Data as FreeBSD port) and I think Pd on Windows deserves the same amount of care.
i think the comparision with FreeBSD is not favourable for W32: - FreeBSD is a un*x flavour and follows standards that a lot of other systems follow as well (unlike W32, which follows its own standards). therefore, if Pd integrates well with a standard linux distribution (for this to acchieve there are standard toolchains), it will automatically integrate well with FreeBSD. - FreeBSD "ports" (as in: packages) are provided by the FreeBSD folks, not by "Pd itself" (e.g. miller). also it seems there is no "Pd" (or "puredata") port.
fgmasdr IOhannes
On Tue, 2015-11-10 at 12:05 +0100, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
On 2015-11-10 11:29, Roman Haefeli wrote:
We treat other platforms with a lot of care (it seems you can get Pure Data as FreeBSD port) and I think Pd on Windows deserves the same amount of care.
i think the comparision with FreeBSD is not favourable for W32:
- FreeBSD is a un*x flavour and follows standards that a lot of other
systems follow as well (unlike W32, which follows its own standards). therefore, if Pd integrates well with a standard linux distribution (for this to acchieve there are standard toolchains), it will automatically integrate well with FreeBSD.
My point was that even on a much rarer platform than Windows - FreeBSD, for instance - you can get Pure Data in a way convenient and common for that platform.
- FreeBSD "ports" (as in: packages) are provided by the FreeBSD folks,
not by "Pd itself" (e.g. miller). also it seems there is no "Pd" (or "puredata") port.
I randomly picked a platform and Google returned some bug reports for a Pure Data port, so I assume a Pd port existed.
I'm happy to host Windows installer for Pure Data myself, the reason I hesitate is it would add more fragmentation.
BTW: I never heard people complaining about Pd-extended coming as installer, even less so since you can pick zip or installer. Pd could do the same.
Roman
-
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
IOhannes m zmoelnig -
Roman Haefeli