Hans,
I tried out RC7 today on a Mac, but have been road-testing RC6 on Windows. RC7 on the OS X, pdp and pidip do not load but gave me this:
/PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../extra/pdp.pd_darwin: dlcompat: dyld: /PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../bin/pd Undefined symbols: /PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../ pdp: can't load library /PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../extra/pidip.pd_darwin: dlcompat: dyld: /PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../bin/pd Undefined symbols: /PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../ pidip: can't load library
- regardless of whether Xdarwin was running or not.
Second problem is that vasp is not included. Is this because it can't be de-lib-ed into separate objects? I notice fftease~ is missing also! Patches with GOP written in 0.39 do not work in 0.38 (but I guess I shouldn't expect them to!) And finally, where is unwonk?
So there is my list. Hope you like it ;-! Dual G5 running 10.3.9. Ed
-- Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Unless there is something very wrong with this release, this will be the final release. Then it'll be posted up on SourceForge as Pd-0.38.4-extended.
http://at.or.at/hans/pd/installers.html
Its actually looking pretty good, maybe not even beta anymore ;)
.hc
________________________________________________________________________
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity."
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On Jan 19, 2006, at 8:15 AM, Ed Kelly wrote:
Hans,
I tried out RC7 today on a Mac, but have been road-testing RC6 on Windows. RC7 on the OS X, pdp and pidip do not load but gave me this:
/PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../ extra/pdp.pd_darwin: dlcompat: dyld: /PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../ bin/pd Undefined symbols: /PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../ pdp: can't load library /PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../ extra/pidip.pd_darwin: dlcompat: dyld: /PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../ bin/pd Undefined symbols: /PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../ pidip: can't load library
- regardless of whether Xdarwin was running or not.
I don't use PDP and PiDiP, so all I can say is "it works for me". Have you installed all the updates on Mac OS X? I think it needs to be 10.3.9 at least.
Second problem is that vasp is not included. Is this because it can't be de-lib-ed into separate objects? I notice fftease~ is missing also!
vasp and fftease are included, here is the .dmg:
hans@sla:darwin_app > ls -l /Volumes/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/ Resources/extra/fftease.pd_darwin -rwxr-xr-x 1 hans staff 270260 Nov 27 13:01 /Volumes/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/ Resources/extra/fftease.pd_darwin* hans@sla:darwin_app > ls -l /Volumes/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/ Resources/extra/vasp.pd_darwin -rwxr-xr-x 1 hans staff 682260 Sep 6 06:22 /Volumes/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/ Resources/extra/vasp.pd_darwin*
vasp and fftease are both old-style multi-file libraries, they need to be loaded. I'll add them to the default preferences files.
Patches with GOP written in 0.39 do not work in 0.38 (but I guess I shouldn't expect them to!)
nope.
And finally, where is unwonk?
What's unwonk?
.hc
So there is my list. Hope you like it ;-! Dual G5 running 10.3.9. Ed
-- Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Unless there is something very wrong with this release, this will be the final release. Then it'll be posted up on SourceForge as Pd-0.38.4-extended.
http://at.or.at/hans/pd/installers.html
Its actually looking pretty good, maybe not even beta anymore ;)
.hc
_
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity."
-John Gilmore -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (Darwin)
iD8DBQFDzeAhN4PEFRUrWIsRAv4aAJ9Ihi8UlNFzCEH+rMh4ejx5EKPmUQCgwCEj
1+5MoYGDCHPaNAHU7a4Oi0U= =zeMq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
PD-announce mailing list PD-announce@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce
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On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
What's unwonk?
Thats a very very old external from ggee. I am surprised that someone still uses it. I was planning to declare most of the ggee objects as obsolete at some point in time.
Günter
.hc
So there is my list. Hope you like it ;-! Dual G5 running 10.3.9. Ed
-- Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Unless there is something very wrong with this release, this will be the final release. Then it'll be posted up on SourceForge as Pd-0.38.4-extended.
http://at.or.at/hans/pd/installers.html
Its actually looking pretty good, maybe not even beta anymore ;)
.hc
_
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity."
-John Gilmore -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (Darwin)
iD8DBQFDzeAhN4PEFRUrWIsRAv4aAJ9Ihi8UlNFzCEH+rMh4ejx5EKPmUQCgwCEj
1+5MoYGDCHPaNAHU7a4Oi0U= =zeMq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
PD-announce mailing list PD-announce@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce
-> -> --> ---> -----> --------> -------------> (insert quote here)
Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry
"Looking at things from a more basic level, you can come up with a more direct solution... It may sound small in theory, but it in practice, it can change entire economies." - Amy Smith
PD-dev mailing list PD-dev@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-dev
On Jan 19, 2006, at 11:14 AM, geiger wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
What's unwonk?
Thats a very very old external from ggee. I am surprised that someone still uses it. I was planning to declare most of the ggee objects as obsolete at some point in time.
Günter
Well, we could just leave it as a "ggee" lib for when you want to load old patchs.
.hc
.hc
So there is my list. Hope you like it ;-! Dual G5 running 10.3.9. Ed
-- Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Unless there is something very wrong with this release, this will be the final release. Then it'll be posted up on SourceForge as Pd-0.38.4-extended.
http://at.or.at/hans/pd/installers.html
Its actually looking pretty good, maybe not even beta anymore ;)
.hc
__ _
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity."
-John Gilmore -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (Darwin)
iD8DBQFDzeAhN4PEFRUrWIsRAv4aAJ9Ihi8UlNFzCEH+rMh4ejx5EKPmUQCgwCEj
1+5MoYGDCHPaNAHU7a4Oi0U= =zeMq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
PD-announce mailing list PD-announce@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce
-> -> --> ---> -----> --------> -------------> (insert quote here)
Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry
__ ____
"Looking at things from a more basic level, you can come up with a more direct solution... It may sound small in theory, but it in practice, it can change entire economies." - Amy Smith
PD-dev mailing list PD-dev@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-dev
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Apologies for that...I meant where's unwonk!
I still sometimes use that!
Ed
--- geiger geiger@xdv.org wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
What's unwonk?
Thats a very very old external from ggee. I am surprised that someone still uses it. I was planning to declare most of the ggee objects as obsolete at some point in time.
Günter
.hc
So there is my list. Hope you like it ;-! Dual
G5
running 10.3.9. Ed
-- Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Unless there is something very wrong with this release, this will be the final release. Then it'll be posted up on SourceForge as Pd-0.38.4-extended.
http://at.or.at/hans/pd/installers.html
Its actually looking pretty good, maybe not
even
beta anymore ;)
.hc
_______________________________________________________________________
_
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those
who
profit from scarcity."
-John Gilmore -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (Darwin)
iD8DBQFDzeAhN4PEFRUrWIsRAv4aAJ9Ihi8UlNFzCEH+rMh4ejx5EKPmUQCgwCEj
1+5MoYGDCHPaNAHU7a4Oi0U= =zeMq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
PD-announce mailing list PD-announce@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce
-> -> --> ---> -----> --------> -------------> (insert quote here)
___________________________________________________________
Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!.
Enter now.
________________________________________________________________________
"Looking at things from a more basic level, you
can come up with a more
direct solution... It may sound small in theory,
but it in practice, it
can change entire economies."
- Amy Smith
PD-dev mailing list PD-dev@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-dev
-> -> --> ---> -----> --------> -------------> (insert quote here)
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ola,
I don't use PDP and PiDiP, so all I can say is "it works for me".
i will not comment further on your stupidity, with all your friends here, you're just killing any idea of pd's community ( if it ever existed )
but, as people waste their time to look for defaults in other's work, i would rather tell them to get a life..
ciao, sevy
On Jan 21, 2006, at 2:00 PM, Yves Degoyon wrote:
ola,
I don't use PDP and PiDiP, so all I can say is "it works for me".
i will not comment further on your stupidity, with all your friends here, you're just killing any idea of pd's community ( if it ever existed )
but, as people waste their time to look for defaults in other's work, i would rather tell them to get a life..
I am trying to get PiDiP working seemlessly in Pd-extended. I have never used PiDiP, so I have no knowledge of what is even correct behavior for it. I'd greatly appreciate help from you in this regard rather than criticism.
If you, or anyone who knows anything about PiDiP, tells me what needs to be fixed, or even fixes it themselves, then we'll all be better off.
You can't expect me to know every single aspect of all the code in CVS.
.hc
________________________________________________________________________ ____
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." - Thomas Jefferson
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Jan 21, 2006, at 2:00 PM, Yves Degoyon wrote:
ola,
I don't use PDP and PiDiP, so all I can say is "it works for me".
i will not comment further on your stupidity, with all your friends here, you're just killing any idea of pd's community ( if it ever existed )
but, as people waste their time to look for defaults in other's work, i would rather tell them to get a life..
I am trying to get PiDiP working seemlessly in Pd-extended. I have never used PiDiP, so I have no knowledge of what is even correct behavior for it. I'd greatly appreciate help from you in this regard rather than criticism.
If you, or anyone who knows anything about PiDiP, tells me what needs to be fixed, or even fixes it themselves, then we'll all be better off.
You can't expect me to know every single aspect of all the code in CVS.
i don't know, is loading the library a good test? ( like this you would see the following font is missing : /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/TTF/helmetr.ttf )
is missing in your tarball.
and, pidip is hardly a copy of effectv, anyway, i know Kentaro since a long time and he allowed me to port everything.
and the military clause apply to _my_ own code ( of motion tracking ), you sometimes i did some code ( but maybe i shouldn't have )
ciao, sevy
.hc
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it."
- Thomas Jefferson
PD-dev mailing list PD-dev@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-dev
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006, Yves Degoyon wrote:
and, pidip is hardly a copy of effectv,
did anyone say that? i think that we agree that it's a "derivative" of effectv because it includes code from it and/or it links to it.
and the military clause apply to _my_ own code ( of motion tracking ),
It's said nowhere in your LICENSE.txt, so, what are people supposed to assume without having to ask you every time?
Besides, pdp_mgrid.c contains a GPL header. Do you say anywhere (in the tarball) that the user may pick either of the two licenses?
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Hans,
Before I comment on the comment, I copied the pdp.pd_darwin library from my /usr/local/lib/pd/extra into the Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/extra, pdp and pidip loaded OK and I got a video up in X. I am using the version from Yves, pdp_pidip_osx/ from http://tdegoyon.free.fr/pdp_pidip_osx.tar.gz but you have to get inside the archive to find the bits you need. Since this is an extended release it may be useful to include all the libs from this archive (Imagemagick etc) although there may still be the fuss about Pidip's license (it contains mp3lame amongst other dylibs). It still needs X11 so maybe it would be wise to put a link to http://ydegoyon.free.fr/INSTALL_NOTES.txt , or just add to the Readme.html file about getting X11. Apple's XDarwin works as well as the X11 distribution.
--- Yves Degoyon ydegoyon@free.fr wrote:
i will not comment further on your stupidity, with all your friends here, you're just killing any idea of pd's community ( if it ever existed )
but, as people waste their time to look for defaults in other's work, i would rather tell them to get a life..
Really?
I work a lot with students who come to me looking for an alternative to Max/MSP/Jitter, since they cannot afford to buy such software. In Britain, every music department uses Macintosh computers, almost without exception, and I'd like to point them in a direction that allows me to show them PD without necessarily having to learn how to compile and troubleshoot complex pieces of software (of which pidip is one, since it depends on so many other pieces of software to work). Hans' installer is the ideal candidate for this, since it gives you many objects with the minimum of installation of initialisation files. Your own pdp_pidip_osx is good too in that respect. I apologise to Hans for being presumptious with my bug reports, or not having the time to research them thoroughly (I have Mac's only at work, where I am supposed to be working!). As far as I know, this is the only attempt by anyone to make PD externals accessible, so let's get behind it.
Pidip is hard to get to work. That's a fact we can address if the motivation is there, but I have a life thank you, and don't particularly want others to have to waste theirs trying to find the right CVS snapshot of ffmpeg amongst other things, as I did, or to resolve the problems compiling mpeg4ip, of which the version Yves says to get isn't even available anymore. That's not finding fault with your software Yves - I like it and use it. Just acknowledging some facts. What kind of community do you want, Yves? A democracy or an elite?
On Wednesday I will be giving a lecture and demonstration where I work on PD, to encourage students to consider it as an alternative to Max/MSP. I'd like to promote the community, as I often have, as an advantage rather than a hindrance. I know Yves, that you may have absolutely no reason to care whether anyone uses your software or not, and that's fine. But let's not make this personal.
Best, Ed
-> -> --> ---> -----> --------> -------------> (insert quote here)
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man,
i'm not speaking of you and others constructive users, i'm speaking of other developers here that want to _normalize_ the pd developement.. and the time wasted with this ( my precious time ).
i never made a pledge to american law and the FSF... and i don't really mind what they think.
i think free software should be more than a commodity where you are not obliged to pay any licence, but that it should also be seen as a brick to build another world, along with free networks, free medias and be prohibited to be used in some contexts. ( when i see that people are proud in some linux magazine that free software has ben used to operate a tank, i just think we don't share lots of values and i want to run from 'mainstream' free software, what it becomes now, another system ... )
saludos, sevy
Ed Kelly wrote:
Hans,
Before I comment on the comment, I copied the pdp.pd_darwin library from my /usr/local/lib/pd/extra into the Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/extra, pdp and pidip loaded OK and I got a video up in X. I am using the version from Yves, pdp_pidip_osx/ from http://tdegoyon.free.fr/pdp_pidip_osx.tar.gz but you have to get inside the archive to find the bits you need. Since this is an extended release it may be useful to include all the libs from this archive (Imagemagick etc) although there may still be the fuss about Pidip's license (it contains mp3lame amongst other dylibs). It still needs X11 so maybe it would be wise to put a link to http://ydegoyon.free.fr/INSTALL_NOTES.txt , or just add to the Readme.html file about getting X11. Apple's XDarwin works as well as the X11 distribution.
--- Yves Degoyon ydegoyon@free.fr wrote:
i will not comment further on your stupidity, with all your friends here, you're just killing any idea of pd's community ( if it ever existed )
but, as people waste their time to look for defaults in other's work, i would rather tell them to get a life..
Really?
I work a lot with students who come to me looking for an alternative to Max/MSP/Jitter, since they cannot afford to buy such software. In Britain, every music department uses Macintosh computers, almost without exception, and I'd like to point them in a direction that allows me to show them PD without necessarily having to learn how to compile and troubleshoot complex pieces of software (of which pidip is one, since it depends on so many other pieces of software to work). Hans' installer is the ideal candidate for this, since it gives you many objects with the minimum of installation of initialisation files. Your own pdp_pidip_osx is good too in that respect. I apologise to Hans for being presumptious with my bug reports, or not having the time to research them thoroughly (I have Mac's only at work, where I am supposed to be working!). As far as I know, this is the only attempt by anyone to make PD externals accessible, so let's get behind it.
Pidip is hard to get to work. That's a fact we can address if the motivation is there, but I have a life thank you, and don't particularly want others to have to waste theirs trying to find the right CVS snapshot of ffmpeg amongst other things, as I did, or to resolve the problems compiling mpeg4ip, of which the version Yves says to get isn't even available anymore. That's not finding fault with your software Yves - I like it and use it. Just acknowledging some facts. What kind of community do you want, Yves? A democracy or an elite?
On Wednesday I will be giving a lecture and demonstration where I work on PD, to encourage students to consider it as an alternative to Max/MSP. I'd like to promote the community, as I often have, as an advantage rather than a hindrance. I know Yves, that you may have absolutely no reason to care whether anyone uses your software or not, and that's fine. But let's not make this personal.
Best, Ed
-> -> --> ---> -----> --------> -------------> (insert quote here)
___________________________________________________________ Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry
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On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Yves Degoyon wrote:
i never made a pledge to american law
neither did I. But note that most countries agreed to the Berne Convention: http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/berne/trtdocs_wo001.html
there are laws that are per-country and so might not apply where you are, but the stable part of the copyright law is almost worldwide.
and the FSF... and i don't really mind what they think.
There's Free Software Foundation Europe: http://fsfeurope.org/
There's Free Software Foundation Latin America: http://www.fsfla.org/
i think free software should be more than a commodity where you are not obliged to pay any licence, but that it should also be seen as a brick to build another world,
The FSF wants to build another world as well, and that's why they criticise the open-source movement for not being morally ambitious enough. It's just not the same world as you, apparently...
and be prohibited to be used in some contexts.
What I want you to understand is that this prohibition causes more harm than it cures.
( when i see that people are proud in some linux magazine that free software has ben used to operate a tank, i just think we don't share lots of values
That's because you are not in a country under attack. If you had someone sending guided missiles up your ass, you'd want your country's army to do something about it, and it's not a matter of whether the antimissile defense is Linux-powered or not. Anyway if you *needed* an antimissile or a tank, you'd rather want it Linux-powered than Windows-powered any day for sure.
and i want to run from 'mainstream' free software, what it becomes now, another system ...
You see, it's normal to have systems sometimes. When there's an evil system somewhere, you shouldn't be worried about the fact that it's a system as much as the fact that it's evil, because, if you do, then the evil system has won, while all the potential good replacements lose.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
You see, it's normal to have systems sometimes. When there's an evil system somewhere, you shouldn't be worried about the fact that it's a system as much as the fact that it's evil, because, if you do, then the evil system has won, while all the potential good replacements lose.
Hmmm, I think all human systems become more evil with time: the more the system becomes established, the more humans work for _it_ and must adapt their behaviour to _its_ needs, even when it began as a user-friendly sytem whose purpose was to help the people who started it; so all sytems need to be thoroughly broken and rebuilt every once in a while before they become too despotic, wasteful, counterproductive. Of course systems in most need of reform are at the same time the most dangerous to meddle with...
Martin
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Martin Peach wrote:
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
You see, it's normal to have systems sometimes. When there's an evil system somewhere, you shouldn't be worried about the fact that it's a system as much as the fact that it's evil, because, if you do, then the evil system has won, while all the potential good replacements lose.
Hmmm, I think all human systems become more evil with time: the more the system becomes established, the more humans work for _it_ and must adapt their behaviour to _its_ needs, even when it began as a user-friendly sytem whose purpose was to help the people who started it; so all sytems need to be thoroughly broken and rebuilt every once in a while before they become too despotic, wasteful, counterproductive. Of course systems in most need of reform are at the same time the most dangerous to meddle with...
So, linking this back to what we were talking about, I ask you, is the Free Software Foundation despotic and/or wasteful and/or counterproductive and/or in need of getting thoroughly broken and in need of being rebuilt?
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Martin Peach wrote:
Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
You see, it's normal to have systems sometimes. When there's an evil system somewhere, you shouldn't be worried about the fact that it's a system as much as the fact that it's evil, because, if you do, then the evil system has won, while all the potential good replacements lose.
Hmmm, I think all human systems become more evil with time: the more the system becomes established, the more humans work for _it_ and must adapt their behaviour to _its_ needs, even when it began as a user-friendly sytem whose purpose was to help the people who started it; so all sytems need to be thoroughly broken and rebuilt every once in a while before they become too despotic, wasteful, counterproductive. Of course systems in most need of reform are at the same time the most dangerous to meddle with...
So, linking this back to what we were talking about, I ask you, is the Free Software Foundation despotic and/or wasteful and/or counterproductive and/or in need of getting thoroughly broken and in need of being rebuilt?
No doubt it will get that way eventually. It seems to take a few decades for the rot to really set in. At the moment it seems harmless enough, but it _is_ encouraging the same belief system that the antipiracy league subscribe to: that licences to software mean anything at all in a real world where a file may be copied at almost zero cost. A physical object may be copied as well but the cost is usually prohibitive. That's why pragmatic people buy a real Cadillac instead of a copy: the cost is lower for the orginal, not because it's infringing someone's intellectual property to copy it.
Martin
ola,
You see, it's normal to have systems sometimes. When there's an evil system somewhere, you shouldn't be worried about the fact that it's a system as much as the fact that it's evil, because, if you do, then the evil system has won, while all the potential good replacements lose.
that's it... you said it yourself... you're as stupid as i thought...
but please stop writing to me....
ciao, sevy
Hello,
THIS WHOLE TOPIC IS DESPOTIC, WASTEFUL, AND COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.
Take this argument elsewhere. This is a waste of bandwidth and doesn't belong on ANY list-serv. This is not the garbage the I subscribed to.
Regards.
-----Original Message----- From: pd-dev-bounces@iem.at [mailto:pd-dev-bounces@iem.at] On Behalf Of Yves Degoyon Sent: January 23, 2006 10:16 AM To: Ed Kelly Cc: hcs@eds.org; pd-dev@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD-dev] Re: [PD-announce] Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7
man,
i'm not speaking of you and others constructive users, i'm speaking of other developers here that want to _normalize_ the pd developement.. and the time wasted with this ( my precious time ).
i never made a pledge to american law and the FSF... and i don't really mind what they think.
i think free software should be more than a commodity where you are not obliged to pay any licence, but that it should also be seen as a brick to build another world, along with free networks, free medias and be prohibited to be used in some contexts. ( when i see that people are proud in some linux magazine that free software has ben used to operate a tank, i just think we don't share lots of values and i want to run from 'mainstream' free software, what it becomes now, another system ... )
saludos, sevy
Ed Kelly wrote:
Hans,
Before I comment on the comment, I copied the pdp.pd_darwin library from my /usr/local/lib/pd/extra into the Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/extra, pdp and pidip loaded OK and I got a video up in X. I am using the version from Yves, pdp_pidip_osx/ from http://tdegoyon.free.fr/pdp_pidip_osx.tar.gz but you have to get inside the archive to find the bits you need. Since this is an extended release it may be useful to include all the libs from this archive (Imagemagick etc) although there may still be the fuss about Pidip's license (it contains mp3lame amongst other dylibs). It still needs X11 so maybe it would be wise to put a link to http://ydegoyon.free.fr/INSTALL_NOTES.txt , or just add to the Readme.html file about getting X11. Apple's XDarwin works as well as the X11 distribution.
--- Yves Degoyon ydegoyon@free.fr wrote:
i will not comment further on your stupidity, with all your friends here, you're just killing any idea of pd's community ( if it ever existed )
but, as people waste their time to look for defaults in other's work, i would rather tell them to get a life..
Really?
I work a lot with students who come to me looking for an alternative to Max/MSP/Jitter, since they cannot afford to buy such software. In Britain, every music department uses Macintosh computers, almost without exception, and I'd like to point them in a direction that allows me to show them PD without necessarily having to learn how to compile and troubleshoot complex pieces of software (of which pidip is one, since it depends on so many other pieces of software to work). Hans' installer is the ideal candidate for this, since it gives you many objects with the minimum of installation of initialisation files. Your own pdp_pidip_osx is good too in that respect. I apologise to Hans for being presumptious with my bug reports, or not having the time to research them thoroughly (I have Mac's only at work, where I am supposed to be working!). As far as I know, this is the only attempt by anyone to make PD externals accessible, so let's get behind it.
Pidip is hard to get to work. That's a fact we can address if the motivation is there, but I have a life thank you, and don't particularly want others to have to waste theirs trying to find the right CVS snapshot of ffmpeg amongst other things, as I did, or to resolve the problems compiling mpeg4ip, of which the version Yves says to get isn't even available anymore. That's not finding fault with your software Yves - I like it and use it. Just acknowledging some facts. What kind of community do you want, Yves? A democracy or an elite?
On Wednesday I will be giving a lecture and demonstration where I work on PD, to encourage students to consider it as an alternative to Max/MSP. I'd like to promote the community, as I often have, as an advantage rather than a hindrance. I know Yves, that you may have absolutely no reason to care whether anyone uses your software or not, and that's fine. But let's not make this personal.
Best, Ed
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On Mon Jan 23, 2006 at 04:39:40PM -0600, Dave S wrote:
Hello, THIS WHOLE TOPIC IS DESPOTIC, WASTEFUL, AND COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.
thank you for your depostic, wasteful, counterproductive response :)
Take this argument elsewhere. This is a waste of bandwidth
you know how many of these messages it would take to use as much bw as the avg 'silly flash movie' link? praobly aobut 150-300 or so but i havent counted..
belong on ANY list-serv. This is not the garbage the I subscribed to.
actually it is.. youre welcome to hit delete or unsubscribe. politics seem to be quite involved with many facets of pure-data, from the differing core branches, the differing build systems, the differing licenses, etc... or maybe not so much politics as smart people with their own views and experiences - its important to hear everyones opinion...which is one productive use of this list..
Regards.
cheers .
Can I suggest that, although it's fine to have political discussions about PD development, could we change this thread's name so that it doesn't look like bug reports for hans' release? I'm sure we all have an opinion, but we're probably wasting someone else's time.
Personally I have an interest in my software not being used by the military. But on the other hand, if the US (or any other) military really wanted to use our software, do you really think they would tell us about it? If Microsoft don't have to release the code for Windows, how on earth is somebody going to reverse-engineer proprietary binaries to prove it was used in a tank, even if they had them? All we can do is make it open, and then every soul on the planet with a net link can use it for peaceful purposes.
Also, and this is crucial, it is very unlikely that somebody who's raison d'etre is to make art will be involved in military research, and so the military have probably never even heard of PD. Nor is it likely that the military would take such an interest in software that is designed for artistic purposes - there are far more efficient ways to fly a plane! If one of us makes a mathematical breakthrough in any way, it may be used for military uses or not, but never forget that the Unix operating system, and by evolution BSD, OSX and Linux _all_ originate from the US military. Let us use them for peaceful purposes.
But there's clearly a lot of passionate feelings here, and if there weren't I'd begin to wonder if I was talking to a community of artists or not! Bring it on...
Best, Ed
--- cdr ix@replic.net wrote:
On Mon Jan 23, 2006 at 04:39:40PM -0600, Dave S wrote:
Hello, THIS WHOLE TOPIC IS DESPOTIC, WASTEFUL, AND
COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.
thank you for your depostic, wasteful, counterproductive response :)
Take this argument elsewhere. This is a waste of
bandwidth
you know how many of these messages it would take to use as much bw as the avg 'silly flash movie' link? praobly aobut 150-300 or so but i havent counted..
belong on ANY list-serv. This is not the garbage
the I subscribed to.
actually it is.. youre welcome to hit delete or unsubscribe. politics seem to be quite involved with many facets of pure-data, from the differing core branches, the differing build systems, the differing licenses, etc... or maybe not so much politics as smart people with their own views and experiences - its important to hear everyones opinion...which is one productive use of this list..
Regards.
cheers .
PD-dev mailing list PD-dev@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-dev
-> -> --> ---> -----> --------> -------------> (insert quote here)
___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos  NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Turns out that you have a calming influence, it seems. Ahh...
But yes, hear, hear! to all you said below.
.hc
On Jan 24, 2006, at 5:30 AM, Ed Kelly wrote:
Can I suggest that, although it's fine to have political discussions about PD development, could we change this thread's name so that it doesn't look like bug reports for hans' release? I'm sure we all have an opinion, but we're probably wasting someone else's time.
Personally I have an interest in my software not being used by the military. But on the other hand, if the US (or any other) military really wanted to use our software, do you really think they would tell us about it? If Microsoft don't have to release the code for Windows, how on earth is somebody going to reverse-engineer proprietary binaries to prove it was used in a tank, even if they had them? All we can do is make it open, and then every soul on the planet with a net link can use it for peaceful purposes.
Also, and this is crucial, it is very unlikely that somebody who's raison d'etre is to make art will be involved in military research, and so the military have probably never even heard of PD. Nor is it likely that the military would take such an interest in software that is designed for artistic purposes - there are far more efficient ways to fly a plane! If one of us makes a mathematical breakthrough in any way, it may be used for military uses or not, but never forget that the Unix operating system, and by evolution BSD, OSX and Linux _all_ originate from the US military. Let us use them for peaceful purposes.
But there's clearly a lot of passionate feelings here, and if there weren't I'd begin to wonder if I was talking to a community of artists or not! Bring it on...
Best, Ed
--- cdr ix@replic.net wrote:
On Mon Jan 23, 2006 at 04:39:40PM -0600, Dave S wrote:
Hello, THIS WHOLE TOPIC IS DESPOTIC, WASTEFUL, AND
COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.
thank you for your depostic, wasteful, counterproductive response :)
Take this argument elsewhere. This is a waste of
bandwidth
you know how many of these messages it would take to use as much bw as the avg 'silly flash movie' link? praobly aobut 150-300 or so but i havent counted..
belong on ANY list-serv. This is not the garbage
the I subscribed to.
actually it is.. youre welcome to hit delete or unsubscribe. politics seem to be quite involved with many facets of pure-data, from the differing core branches, the differing build systems, the differing licenses, etc... or maybe not so much politics as smart people with their own views and experiences - its important to hear everyones opinion...which is one productive use of this list..
Regards.
cheers .
PD-dev mailing list PD-dev@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-dev
-> -> --> ---> -----> --------> -------------> (insert quote here)
___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________ ____
"Computer science is no more related to the computer than astronomy is related to the telescope." -Edsger Dykstra
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Ed Kelly wrote:
but never forget that the Unix operating system, and by evolution BSD, OSX and Linux _all_ originate from the US military. Let us use them for peaceful purposes.
But most of all never forget to check your facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix
Where's the military in there?
Chances are that you are confusing Unix with something else.
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
I stand corrected!
Ed --- Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Ed Kelly wrote:
but never forget that the Unix operating system,
and by evolution BSD,
OSX and Linux _all_ originate from the US
military. Let us use them for
peaceful purposes.
But most of all never forget to check your facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix
Where's the military in there?
Chances are that you are confusing Unix with something else.
_____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
-> -> --> ---> -----> --------> -------------> (insert quote here)
___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Actually, the military was definitely involved in UNIX, but not necessarily always directly. Instead, the U.S. military funded these computer research programs heavily, from Bell Labs to UC Berkeley. For example, MULTICS was a DARPA project, (meaning U.S. military). Bell Labs, where UNIX was developed, received lots of military funding, BSD was largely funded by DARPA at UC Berkeley, Mach was another DARPA project (Mach is the kernel in Mac OS X), and even Real Time Linux has received DARPA funding.
Unfortunately, a lot of these computer histories focus on the technical history, and leave out the military role. Instead, they talk about the institutions which did the research: MIT, UC Berkeley, Bell Labs, Stanford, etc. But the truth behind that is the research money was coming from the U.S. military, and the U.S. military was driving the research topics. The U.S. military was so dominant in the field of computers that up until the 70's, the majority of money spent on computers _in the world_ was from the U.S. military.
If you have more interest in this topic, checkout this article: http://chnm.gmu.edu/assets/historyessays/wizards.html
which is a review of this book "The Closed World: Computers and the Politics of Discourse in Cold War America", by Paul Edwards. http://www.si.umich.edu/~pne/cw.htm
Plus someone should update the wikipedia pages...
.hc
On Jan 26, 2006, at 9:20 AM, Ed Kelly wrote:
I stand corrected!
Ed --- Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Ed Kelly wrote:
but never forget that the Unix operating system,
and by evolution BSD,
OSX and Linux _all_ originate from the US
military. Let us use them for
peaceful purposes.
But most of all never forget to check your facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix
Where's the military in there?
Chances are that you are confusing Unix with something else.
_____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
-> -> --> ---> -----> --------> -------------> (insert quote here)
___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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________________________________________________________________________ ____
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On 26 Jan 2006, at 16:22, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Actually, the military was definitely involved in UNIX, but not necessarily always directly. Instead, the U.S. military funded these computer research programs heavily, from Bell Labs to UC Berkeley. For example, MULTICS was a DARPA project, (meaning U.S. military).
Just to note, wikipedia isn't always half-right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet
Where DARPA's funding of the ARPAnet is explained within the 3- terminal (MULTICS included) origin.
Incidentally, I know guys working on Semantic Web projects at MIT's W3C headquarters who -still- receive grants from DARPA to fund their W3C activities, some of which include working on RDF.
Not only is the US military behind most of the original project that contributed to later arpa/internet and semweb research, but the slack that was supposed to be picked up by the National Science Foundation after the Mansfield Amendment of 1973 (which expressly limited appropriations for defense research to projects with direct military application) was never picked up. This means people are still left with little option but to be funded by them, i.e. -find- military applications of their research.
d
-- David Plans Casal Researcher, UEA Studios d.casal at uea dot ac dot uk http://www.davidcasal.com
And yes, I am using 10.3.9!
Best, Ed
--- Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:
On Jan 19, 2006, at 8:15 AM, Ed Kelly wrote:
Hans,
I tried out RC7 today on a Mac, but have been road-testing RC6 on Windows. RC7 on the OS X, pdp and pidip do not load but
gave me
this:
/PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../
extra/pdp.pd_darwin: dlcompat: dyld:
/PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../
bin/pd Undefined symbols:
/PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../
pdp: can't load library
/PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../
extra/pidip.pd_darwin: dlcompat: dyld:
/PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../
bin/pd Undefined symbols:
/PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../
pidip: can't load library
- regardless of whether Xdarwin was running or
not.
I don't use PDP and PiDiP, so all I can say is "it works for me". Have you installed all the updates on Mac OS X? I think it needs to be 10.3.9 at least.
Second problem is that vasp is not included. Is
this
because it can't be de-lib-ed into separate
objects? I
notice fftease~ is missing also!
vasp and fftease are included, here is the .dmg:
hans@sla:darwin_app > ls -l
/Volumes/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/
Resources/extra/fftease.pd_darwin -rwxr-xr-x 1 hans staff 270260 Nov 27 13:01
/Volumes/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/
Resources/extra/fftease.pd_darwin* hans@sla:darwin_app > ls -l
/Volumes/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/
Resources/extra/vasp.pd_darwin -rwxr-xr-x 1 hans staff 682260 Sep 6 06:22
/Volumes/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/
Resources/extra/vasp.pd_darwin*
vasp and fftease are both old-style multi-file libraries, they need to be loaded. I'll add them to the default preferences files.
Patches with GOP written in 0.39 do not work in
0.38
(but I guess I shouldn't expect them to!)
nope.
And finally, where is unwonk?
What's unwonk?
.hc
So there is my list. Hope you like it ;-! Dual G5 running 10.3.9. Ed
-- Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Unless there is something very wrong with this release, this will be the final release. Then it'll be posted up on SourceForge as Pd-0.38.4-extended.
http://at.or.at/hans/pd/installers.html
Its actually looking pretty good, maybe not even beta anymore ;)
.hc
_______________________________________________________________________
_
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those
who
profit from scarcity."
-John Gilmore -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (Darwin)
iD8DBQFDzeAhN4PEFRUrWIsRAv4aAJ9Ihi8UlNFzCEH+rMh4ejx5EKPmUQCgwCEj
1+5MoYGDCHPaNAHU7a4Oi0U= =zeMq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
PD-announce mailing list PD-announce@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce
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___________________________________________________________
Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter
now.
________________________________________________________________________
"Looking at things from a more basic level, you can come up with a more direct solution... It may sound small in theory, but it in practice, it can change entire economies."
- Amy Smith
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___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
With RC6 on the Mac, pdp and pidip loaded fine? Strange, since the pidip is the same binary, just copied from RC6 to RC7. I think pdp was recompiled.
.hc
On Jan 23, 2006, at 8:17 AM, Ed Kelly wrote:
And yes, I am using 10.3.9!
Best, Ed
--- Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:
On Jan 19, 2006, at 8:15 AM, Ed Kelly wrote:
Hans,
I tried out RC7 today on a Mac, but have been road-testing RC6 on Windows. RC7 on the OS X, pdp and pidip do not load but
gave me
this:
/PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../
extra/pdp.pd_darwin: dlcompat: dyld:
/PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../
bin/pd Undefined symbols:
/PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../
pdp: can't load library
/PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../
extra/pidip.pd_darwin: dlcompat: dyld:
/PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../
bin/pd Undefined symbols:
/PD-extended/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../
pidip: can't load library
- regardless of whether Xdarwin was running or
not.
I don't use PDP and PiDiP, so all I can say is "it works for me". Have you installed all the updates on Mac OS X? I think it needs to be 10.3.9 at least.
Second problem is that vasp is not included. Is
this
because it can't be de-lib-ed into separate
objects? I
notice fftease~ is missing also!
vasp and fftease are included, here is the .dmg:
hans@sla:darwin_app > ls -l
/Volumes/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/
Resources/extra/fftease.pd_darwin -rwxr-xr-x 1 hans staff 270260 Nov 27 13:01
/Volumes/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/
Resources/extra/fftease.pd_darwin* hans@sla:darwin_app > ls -l
/Volumes/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/
Resources/extra/vasp.pd_darwin -rwxr-xr-x 1 hans staff 682260 Sep 6 06:22
/Volumes/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7/Pd-0.38.4-extended-RC7.app/Contents/
Resources/extra/vasp.pd_darwin*
vasp and fftease are both old-style multi-file libraries, they need to be loaded. I'll add them to the default preferences files.
Patches with GOP written in 0.39 do not work in
0.38
(but I guess I shouldn't expect them to!)
nope.
And finally, where is unwonk?
What's unwonk?
.hc
So there is my list. Hope you like it ;-! Dual G5 running 10.3.9. Ed
-- Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Unless there is something very wrong with this release, this will be the final release. Then it'll be posted up on SourceForge as Pd-0.38.4-extended.
http://at.or.at/hans/pd/installers.html
Its actually looking pretty good, maybe not even beta anymore ;)
.hc
_
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those
who
profit from scarcity."
-John Gilmore -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (Darwin)
iD8DBQFDzeAhN4PEFRUrWIsRAv4aAJ9Ihi8UlNFzCEH+rMh4ejx5EKPmUQCgwCEj
1+5MoYGDCHPaNAHU7a4Oi0U= =zeMq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
PD-announce mailing list PD-announce@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce
-> -> --> ---> -----> --------> -------------> (insert quote here)
Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter
now.
_
"Looking at things from a more basic level, you can come up with a more direct solution... It may sound small in theory, but it in practice, it can change entire economies."
- Amy Smith
-> -> --> ---> -----> --------> -------------> (insert quote here)
___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________ ____
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
-
cdr -
Dave S -
David Plans Casal -
Ed Kelly -
geiger -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Martin Peach -
Mathieu Bouchard -
Yves Degoyon