Hi Hans!
Let me prefix this by saying I think you and everyone else are doing great work with pd-extended.
On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 12:19:45AM -0500, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Nov 21, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Chris McCormick wrote:
On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 03:02:14AM +0000, Chris McCormick wrote:
- Pd is minimal whilst pd-extended is maximal. Hans has stated on list
that he would like to include as many externals as possible in the distribution. I think this is a bad architectural decision which leads to complexity and bugs. I would rather run something which has an architecture I agree with.
Just like to throw in my two cents since I am mentioned by name ;) I may have said that years ago, but that is definitely no longer the case and hasn't been for years. We really should be working towards a common, simple library format so we don't need to include so much stuff in a single package.
Ok! I am obviously behind the times. Sorry about that. I guess it's still the case that at this point in time it is included in a single package, but very nice to hear that you are moving towards something more modular. I should note that Pd itself is not very modular in terms of the way it's distributed, it's just that there is not a lot of stuff in it.
- pd-extended has not yet earned my trust as a software project. I have
been using Pd for a few years, and it has earned my trust. There are many things which Miller has not implemented which I wish he had, but there are far fewer things that he has implemented which I wish he hadn't.
If you do find problems please do let us know.
I will, thanks for the invitation. This is one of the great things about pd-extended, that the development is so public and open. I am looking forward to the day when pd-extended fits my needs and I can begin to trust it when I use it more.
- Hans is the leader of the pd-extended project, and I disagree with many
of his technical decisions. I don't trust him to make technical decisions as much as I trust Miller. This may be outweiged down the track by evolutionary pressure, since pd-extended will be subjected to a lot more pressure than Pd will be, because Pd basically has a sole maintainer. For me this is the biggest thing going for pd-extended - it is properly exposed to the evolutionary pressures of the Free Software community.
Funny, I never wanted to be a leader of this, I'd much prefer it if more people were involved in the work and the decision making. And thankfully, I'm not the only one who works on it. Others have contributed a lot as well.
Of course, and you are doing a neccessary job and I think a lot of people appreciate it, especially people who just want to get something working fast on their platform, and need the functionality of some externals but can't compile them.
- I often want to run Pd on constrained devices and in constrained places.
Getting it to do so is hard enough without the bloat that pd-extended experiences. What if I want to apt-get install Pd onto my router/ gumstix/phone with an ARM based processor with 8MB of flash memory?
I often to that as well. You should see how many python libraries are available for embedded devices. Many many. Just because a library is sitting there on the disk doesn't mean you have to use it. But it does meant that you _can_ use it.
I guess the difference is that when disk space is constrained I have the option to install or not install something with Python, whilst I don't really have that option with pd-extended. If you do an `apt-cache search python-` you will see a ton of stuff that you can optionally install. I think the Python VM and language strike the right balance with what hey choose to be 'batteries included' and what they leave out. Possibly pd-extended still needs to find that balance.
All that said, I like the forkiness of Pd and think its a strength. I don't think everyone should use Pd-extended, or whatever. Its kind of ironic maybe that this thread started with me talking about doing pd- vanilla maintenance :).
Yes, I agree. Choice is good. Also, that irony is not lost on me! I would really appreciate having someone dedicated to updating vanilla Pd in Debian. I must apologise for always contributing words rather that code or action, which is what you do for the benefit of us all.
Cheers,
Chris.
------------------- http://mccormick.cx