Pd-dev September 2024

pd-dev@lists.iem.at

8 participants
8 discussions

Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: gtk front end for Pd?
by Christof Ressi 02 Oct '24

02 Oct '24

(forwarding to pd-dev :) > in Pd it's everything the drag-rectangle touches. This might not be > an issue for other people. That's what QGraphicsScene does by default! I just double checked with my level editor. Don't underestimate modern UI frameworks ;-) -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [PD-dev] Re: Fwd: Re: gtk front end for Pd? Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 21:55:54 +0200 From: Miller Puckette <mpuckette(a)cloud.ucsd.edu> To: Christof Ressi <info(a)christofressi.com> The specific thing I hate is that only things entirely inside the drag-rectangle get selected - in Pd it's everything the drag-rectangle touches. This might not be an issue for other people. cheers M On 9/30/24 9:45 PM, Christof Ressi wrote: > >>> I also hate the way every canvas I've seen does >>> rectangle-selection. Maybe you know of one I won't hate :) >>> >>> And... every widget set I've seen thinks widgets live in >>> rectangles. The second most important graphical item in Pd is the >>> patch line. Giving it a widget-style selection method? Disaster. I >>> don't think patch lines can be TK or GTK r QT or anyone's widgets - >>> imagine how those bounding rectangles would fill th screen :) > > Qt only uses bounding rectangles for the broad phase hit detection. > The actual hit detection can then be further customized for each > widget. The collision shape can be anything from a circle to an > arbitrary polygon or even a bitmap. For example, a line item only > receives a mouse event if you click on the actual line. > > In case you're talkinga about the actual graphical representation of > the selection: that's totally up to you. By default, QGraphicsScene > only notifies the selected items; you can then decide to how to > present the selection to the user. In the case of Pd, you would only > change the appearance of the selected objects (i.e. make them blue), > but not draw a bounding rectangle. > > Another nice feature about Qt's selection mechanism is that you can > use arbitrary selection shapes. For example, you can select items by > drawing an arbitary path, similar to "free selection" mode in painting > programs. That's actually a feature I've always wanted in Pd :) > >>>> >>>> Thanks to Antoine for mentioning pdlua! I will need to check it >>>> out. I have already seen people doing some very cool stuff with it. >>>> Maybe they already have the perfect solution :) >>>> >>> I'm also looking at pdlua, which might want to become the official >>> way to make graphical externs AND to add scripting in a fundamental >>> way to Pd :) > > +1 for an official scripting language! :) (I love Lua, BTW.) And yes, > it would make lots of sense to leverage the scripting language to > implement custom UIs! > > Christof > > > --- > pd-dev(a)lists.iem.at - the Pd developers' mailinglist > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.iem.at/hyperkitty/list/pd-dev@lis…

2 2

Multithreaded non-realtime operations (was: gtk front end for Pd?)
by Sebastian Shader 01 Oct '24

01 Oct '24

>As I have long > seen, there can be lots of noise on pd-list but little outcome. I'd > rather not see it again here on pd-dev. Though it is useful to have discussions on the architecture. As an off-topic aside, for the memory-allocation perspective/management I wonder how difficult it would be to allocate on non-realtime threads with some 'finished' queue/callback to send back to the realtime one? (or just non-realtime operations in general..) Object creation being more realtime-friendly would be better for live patching. Also to me the 'backends as plugins' idea seems nice, whether for GUI or audio. I guess if libpd were used the realtime system would be a library itself, pd container process could manage and orchestrate messages/pointers between the different components whether audio backends or gui or PD (libpd) itself. -seb Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 21:56:51 +0200 From: Christof Ressi <info(a)christofressi.com> Subject: [PD-dev] Re: gtk front end for Pd? To: Dan Wilcox <danomatika(a)gmail.com>, Miller Puckette <mpuckette(a)cloud.ucsd.edu>, Antoine Rousseau <antoine(a)metalu.net> Cc: pd-dev <pd-dev(a)lists.iem.at> Message-ID: <731f731d-f127-4ba3-9d17-4d81ab5368f0(a)christofressi.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------wD0i6FUdzZrSWYCHnQzdmL6B" > 2. (Please don't take this personally.) I am a little disappointed > that many initial responses to Millers mail were more "you should have > done it this way" as opposed to "wow, we are super happy you are > interested in this and also spend time making a preliminary tech > demonstration". Sorry if I came across as too criticial. I've realized this myself and tried to make it clear in my last mail that I'm actually very excited about Millers initiative! > 3. Comparisons are useful but Pd is not SuperCollider. That being > said, there are definitely technical solutions to consider form SC but > I wouldn't want that to overshadow the discussion and turn into "lets > redo Pd core into SC core." ;) I certainly don't want to turn Pd into SC. The reason why I keep mentioning SC is because a) it's the other big open source computer music language and b) I'm very familiar with the source code. I'm also a little bit active in SC development and I often ask them to look at how certain things are handled in Pd. There is so much to learn from each other! > 5. IHMO I'd also like people to consider libpd. In a dream going way > back to PdCon 2026 in NYC, I imagined a future where Pd vanilla and > various forks all shared the same Pd core through libpd with GUI > handling, customization, etc implemented in some modular way. I think we share the same vision after all. > This is actually how Pd Party and Pd Droid Party work... we intercept > the messages sent to the widget via send/receive names and simple > respond to accordingly. In this case, there is a separate GUI tree of > a sort, but it works fine without sending any actual input messages to > the core. Visuals are implemented via CoreGraphics calls: Yeah, I can remember that you've shown me this and I absolutely think it goes into the right direction. > In fact, pretty much *all* modern UI frameworks do this and using it > builds down to implementing a callback for mouse enter/exit, move, > clicked, etc. Exactly :) > Same for touch events (which would be a *very* good idea to add > handling of to Pd. +1000 On 30.09.2024 19:12, Dan Wilcox wrote: > How'd y'all, > > (I will try to keep this short, since I find I really don't read > beyond a couple of paragraphs when people start writing long treatises...) > > 1. Miller I am happy you spent some time looking into this. It is IMO > an important direction we have to all consider for the project's future. > > > > 3. Comparisons are useful but Pd is not SuperCollider. That being > said, there are definitely technical solutions to consider form SC but > I wouldn't want that to overshadow the discussion and turn into "lets > redo Pd core into SC core." ;) > > 3. IOhannes + Giulio etc did a bunch of work with the refactor but can > we admit that has stalled? Perhaps a different approach is warranted? > > 4. I think Miller's demo code is pretty compact... and probably easy > to modify to prove an alternate technical approach. ;) As I have long > seen, there can be lots of noise on pd-list but little outcome. I'd > rather not see it again here on pd-dev. > > 5. IHMO I'd also like people to consider libpd. In a dream going way > back to PdCon 2026 in NYC, I imagined a future where Pd vanilla and > various forks all shared the same Pd core through libpd with GUI > handling, customization, etc implemented in some modular way. The > dream was that we could *all* leverage the work across various places > to benefit everyone and make all of this more sustainable. (ie. I'd > rather make work *with* Pd than have Pd my *work*). > > 6. I think we need a video call on this soon! > > --- > > And now to confuse the thread even more, I will to chime in here: > >> On Sep 30, 2024, at 3:16 PM, pd-dev-request(a)lists.iem.at wrote: >> >> Suppose we replace "draw X, Y,Z" with "draw button". I think this then >> spins out in either of two possible ways: >> >> (1) the "button" widget on the GUI side now takes care of mouse-hit >> detection and making itself flash (and eventually widgets with text can >> grab focus, handle copy/paste, etc). In this case the GUI widget has to >> maintain a connection with its corresponding object in Pd. This gets >> very complicated when, for instance, changing text causes inlets or >> outlets to appear, which perhaps on the Pd side the text is getting >> hammered by messages from elsewhere at the same time. Distributed >> database management, anyone? > > This is actually how Pd Party and Pd Droid Party work... we intercept > the messages sent to the widget via send/receive names and simple > respond to accordingly. In this case, there is a separate GUI tree of > a sort, but it works fine without sending any actual input messages to > the core. Visuals are implemented via CoreGraphics calls: > > https://github.com/danomatika/PdParty/tree/master/src/gui > > Honestly, the situation on iOS is *very* easy since the UIKit layout > engine handles views within views and hit testing for you. Same for > AppKit on macOS. In fact, pretty much *all* modern UI frameworks do > this and using it builds down to implementing a callback for mouse > enter/exit, move, clicked, etc. Same for touch events (which would be > a *very* good idea to add handling of to Pd. > > > -------- > Dan Wilcox > danomatika.com <http://danomatika.com> > robotcowboy.com <http://robotcowboy.com> ***************************************

2 1

Re: gtk front end for Pd?
by Dan Wilcox 30 Sep '24

30 Sep '24

How'd y'all, (I will try to keep this short, since I find I really don't read beyond a couple of paragraphs when people start writing long treatises...) 1. Miller I am happy you spent some time looking into this. It is IMO an important direction we have to all consider for the project's future. 2. (Please don't take this personally.) I am a little disappointed that many initial responses to Millers mail were more "you should have done it this way" as opposed to "wow, we are super happy you are interested in this and also spend time making a preliminary tech demonstration". 3. Comparisons are useful but Pd is not SuperCollider. That being said, there are definitely technical solutions to consider form SC but I wouldn't want that to overshadow the discussion and turn into "lets redo Pd core into SC core." ;) 3. IOhannes + Giulio etc did a bunch of work with the refactor but can we admit that has stalled? Perhaps a different approach is warranted? 4. I think Miller's demo code is pretty compact... and probably easy to modify to prove an alternate technical approach. ;) As I have long seen, there can be lots of noise on pd-list but little outcome. I'd rather not see it again here on pd-dev. 5. IHMO I'd also like people to consider libpd. In a dream going way back to PdCon 2026 in NYC, I imagined a future where Pd vanilla and various forks all shared the same Pd core through libpd with GUI handling, customization, etc implemented in some modular way. The dream was that we could *all* leverage the work across various places to benefit everyone and make all of this more sustainable. (ie. I'd rather make work *with* Pd than have Pd my *work*). 6. I think we need a video call on this soon! --- And now to confuse the thread even more, I will to chime in here: > On Sep 30, 2024, at 3:16 PM, pd-dev-request(a)lists.iem.at wrote: > > Suppose we replace "draw X, Y,Z" with "draw button". I think this then > spins out in either of two possible ways: > > (1) the "button" widget on the GUI side now takes care of mouse-hit > detection and making itself flash (and eventually widgets with text can > grab focus, handle copy/paste, etc). In this case the GUI widget has to > maintain a connection with its corresponding object in Pd. This gets > very complicated when, for instance, changing text causes inlets or > outlets to appear, which perhaps on the Pd side the text is getting > hammered by messages from elsewhere at the same time. Distributed > database management, anyone? This is actually how Pd Party and Pd Droid Party work... we intercept the messages sent to the widget via send/receive names and simple respond to accordingly. In this case, there is a separate GUI tree of a sort, but it works fine without sending any actual input messages to the core. Visuals are implemented via CoreGraphics calls: https://github.com/danomatika/PdParty/tree/master/src/gui Honestly, the situation on iOS is *very* easy since the UIKit layout engine handles views within views and hit testing for you. Same for AppKit on macOS. In fact, pretty much *all* modern UI frameworks do this and using it builds down to implementing a callback for mouse enter/exit, move, clicked, etc. Same for touch events (which would be a *very* good idea to add handling of to Pd. -------- Dan Wilcox danomatika.com <http://danomatika.com/> robotcowboy.com <http://robotcowboy.com/>

2 2

pdgtk demo run issue
by Dan Wilcox 30 Sep '24

30 Sep '24

The pdgtk demo compiled ok on macOS 14.5 with the following Homebrew packages installed: tcl-tk gtk4 I am not able to run it though, pdgtk is complaining about a missing port on invocation: danomatika@danomatika pdgtk % pd -guicmd `pwd`/pdgtk -nrt -stderr z.pd usage: /Users/danomatika/Downloads/pdgtk/pdgtk <port> ^CPd: signal 2 gui socket 0 - closing audio... closing MIDI... ... done. > On Sep 29, 2024, at 12:00 PM, pd-dev-request(a)lists.iem.at wrote: > > Well, I made a stab at doing the same thing with GTK4 - you can grab it > here: http://msp.ucsd.edu/tmp/2024.09.28-pdgtk.tgz . It's about 1200 > lines of code and does only a coupe of very basic things, but it allows > us to guess what it would entail to do the whole job. Of the 325 calls > to pdgui_v[a]mess in the PD source, it takes care of about 10 I think. -------- Dan Wilcox danomatika.com <http://danomatika.com/> robotcowboy.com <http://robotcowboy.com/>

2 3

Fwd: Re: gtk front end for Pd?
by Miller Puckette 30 Sep '24

30 Sep '24

oops, re-sending.... On 30.09.2024 19:19, Miller Puckette wrote: > On 9/30/24 6:23 PM, Christof Ressi wrote: > >> Suppose we replace "draw X, Y,Z" with "draw button". I think this >> then spins out in either of two possible ways: >>> >>> (1) the "button" widget on the GUI side now takes care of mouse-hit >>> detection and making itself flash (and eventually widgets with text >>> can grab focus, handle copy/paste, etc). In this case the GUI widget >>> has to maintain a connection with its corresponding object in Pd. >>> This gets very complicated when, for instance, changing text causes >>> inlets or outlets to appear, which perhaps on the Pd side the text >>> is getting hammered by messages from elsewhere at the same time. >>> Distributed database management, anyone? >>> >>> (2) it's just a drawing with a tag, not an active widget; perhaps >>> mouse hit detection is done in the GUI but everything else in Pd. In >>> this case it's not a big enough change to make much difference, >>> except for this noisome one: "GUI externals" such as the knob now >>> have to load dynamic libraries into two programs, instead of just one. >>> >>> Depending on which scenario we want to consider (or perhaps this is >>> somehow a false choice) we can go into more detail about this... >> >> These are important points! I think there are two separate concerns: >> >> 1. who is doing the mouse-hit-detection? >> >> 2. who initiates the state changes (e.g. flashing, selection) >> >> For example, it would be possible to do the hit detection on the GUI, >> but still do the state changes on the core. For example, in IOhannes >> draft PR, the "bang" object has an "activate" message that is sent >> whenever the flash state changes: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/176… >> >> We could move such internal state changes to the GUI, but we don't >> have to if it only complicates things. >> >> However, I would love to move the hit detection to the GUI! Note that >> some GUI frameworks already do hit detection for canvas items. (In >> Qt, graphic items in a QGraphicsScene can receive mouse events!) In >> this case, doing the hit detection on the core is just duplicate >> work. It is also rather expensive since the core only stores the >> objects in a linked list, without spatial indexing, so every mouse >> movement has to potentially iterate over hundreds or even thousands >> gobjects and do rectangle intersection tests until it finds a hit. >> This is not something that you would want to do on the audio thread :) >> >> The same thing applies to selections. The GUI typically already knows >> which objects are selected, so we only need to send this information >> to the core. >> >> If we do the hit detection on the GUI, you are right that we need to >> keep an association between GUI widget and gobject. I think we just >> need to have a hashtable of tag -> gobject on the core; when the core >> receives a mouse event, it looks up the tag in the hashtable and then >> dispatches the event to the corresponding object. If the tag is not >> found, it means that the object has been destroyed in flight and we >> can just ignore the event. >> >> There's one slight problem: some objects need to know *where* the >> user clicked. E.g. a slider with steady-on-click needs to know the >> position to set the new value. This means that the core side has to >> maintain some knowledge about the graphical representation. This does >> not seem to much of a problem to me, but it's something to be aware of. >> > One idea would be to do the hit detection in the GUI and simply pass > Pd the (x,y) coords along with a list of all the GUI objects that got > hit (each with a "fuzziness" quotient so that we can be smart about > disambiguating multiple hits). The only reason I didn't do that > already is because I didn't want to get too deeply involved with > TclTk's canvases. And yes, anything we kick up to the GUI has to be > done both in TCL/TK and in whatever 5 new GUIs are tried out -- that's > one reason I've kept as much of the intelligence as possible down in > Pd land. > > I also hate the way every canvas I've seen does rectangle-selection. > Maybe you know of one I won't hate :) > > And... every widget set I've seen thinks widgets live in rectangles. > The second most important graphical item in Pd is the patch line. > Giving it a widget-style selection method? Disaster. I don't think > patch lines can be TK or GTK r QT or anyone's widgets - imagine how > those bounding rectangles would fill th screen :) > >> --- >> >> Now here's the big catch: what should we do with GUI externals? >> >> Ad 1: externals could define a region that acts as the bounding >> rectangle and which can be filled with drawing commands. This way >> they can partipicate in hit detection on the GUI. >> >> Ad 2: I think state changes for externals have to be handled on the >> core because the external has no access to the GUI features. It does >> not even know which GUI it runs in. >> >> One idea I had was to provide the GUI features as API functions. E.g. >> pdgui_drawrect() to draw a rectangle or pdgui_delay() to start a >> timer, etc. These API functions have to be implemented by the GUI, >> the core would just delegate the calls to the GUI. The external would >> register a callback function that is called whenever the object needs >> to be redrawn. Also, the GUI external could register callbacks for >> mouse events and paintings >> >> One problem I see is that not every GUI can export C functions. For >> example, this probably wouldn't work with a web browser GUI... >> >> The easiest solution is to just keep state changes for external GUI >> objects on the core, i.e. the external needs to send raw drawing >> commands. As an upside, this would make it easier to update existing >> externals as they would just have to update the drawing commands. Of >> course, as I said, sending all these individual commands not only >> increases traffic, it also means that the GUI has to maintain >> individual graphical primitives instead of just a single widget. >> >> Either way, we should provide a stable GUI/drawing API for externals. >> Currently, it's all unofficial. >> >> Thanks to Antoine for mentioning pdlua! I will need to check it out. >> I have already seen people doing some very cool stuff with it. Maybe >> they already have the perfect solution :) >> > I'm also looking at pdlua, which might want to become the official way > to make graphical externs AND to add scripting in a fundamental way to > Pd :) >> --- >> >> I think all of this needs quite a bit of planning and design. We >> already had an online meeting two or three years ago before we >> started the GUI refactoring process. I would suggest to have another >> meeting where we can talk through all the potential issues and get a >> feel for the overall design. >> >> Anyway, I'm very excited that the GUI refactoring is moving forward! >> >> Christof >> >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> M >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> pd-dev(a)lists.iem.at - the Pd developers' mailinglist >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.iem.at/hyperkitty/list/pd-dev@lis… >> >> >> >> >> --- >> pd-dev(a)lists.iem.at - the Pd developers' mailinglist >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.iem.at/hyperkitty/list/pd-dev@lis… > > >

2 1

gtk front end for Pd?
by Miller Puckette 30 Sep '24

30 Sep '24

To Pd dev - I don't know if any of you remember this, but at the first Pd convention in 2004, someone (I forget who) had the idea of replacing the Pd front end by using the tcl parser but making gtk bindings in place of the tk ones. This is not the most streamlined or elegant way to replace Pd's front end, but it has the advantage of easily coexisting with the existing setup. Well, I made a stab at doing the same thing with GTK4 - you can grab it here: http://msp.ucsd.edu/tmp/2024.09.28-pdgtk.tgz . It's about 1200 lines of code and does only a coupe of very basic things, but it allows us to guess what it would entail to do the whole job. Of the 325 calls to pdgui_v[a]mess in the PD source, it takes care of about 10 I think. To proceed further it would be best to replace calls like <canvas-tag> itemconfigure <item-tag> -width 4 with calls to specific purpose-build tcl procedures like pdtk_canvas_configure_line_width, of which there would probably be 100 or so. I haven't done any of this since I'd like to see if the rest of you have thoughts about doing that. Proceeding that way, and perhaps taking care of 10 cases a day, I think this can be done in a month of work (and then years of followup as usual :) I've heard it suggested that ther could be a C API in Pd that would break out all these calls, but I personally think the pdgui_vmess protocol is good enough and is much easier to manage. We could even replace the ASCII strings with a binary format without changing anything outside of s_inter_gui.c on the PD side, a binary-to-ascii converter for the tcl/tk layer, and then do away entirely with the TCL interpreter for the GTK front end, replaing it with a simple function dispatcher.

4 15

crash jack polling
by Marco Matteo Markidis 24 Sep '24

24 Sep '24

Dear all, I am experiencing a strange bug in Pd 0.55.1. When I launch Pd, it crashes. Running it with Valgrind, I got the following message: ==83263== Thread 4: ==83263== Invalid free() / delete / delete[] / realloc() ==83263== at 0x48461EF: free (in /usr/libexec/valgrind/vgpreload_memcheck-amd64-linux.so) ==83263== by 0x1D9539: jack_polling_callback (s_audio_jack.c:164) ==83263== by 0x4A7AECC: ??? (in /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjack.so.0.1.0) ==83263== by 0x4A7AB87: ??? (in /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjack.so.0.1.0) ==83263== by 0x4A97F2F: ??? (in /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjack.so.0.1.0) ==83263== by 0x4B46731: start_thread (pthread_create.c:447) ==83263== by 0x4BC10FF: clone (clone.S:100) ==83263== Address 0x535b180 is 0 bytes inside a block of size 65,536 free'd ==83263== at 0x48461EF: free (in /usr/libexec/valgrind/vgpreload_memcheck-amd64-linux.so) ==83263== by 0x1D9522: jack_polling_callback (s_audio_jack.c:160) ==83263== by 0x4A7AECC: ??? (in /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjack.so.0.1.0) ==83263== by 0x4A7AB87: ??? (in /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjack.so.0.1.0) ==83263== by 0x4A97F2F: ??? (in /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjack.so.0.1.0) ==83263== by 0x4B46731: start_thread (pthread_create.c:447) ==83263== by 0x4BC10FF: clone (clone.S:100) ==83263== Block was alloc'd at ==83263== at 0x48489F3: calloc (in /usr/libexec/valgrind/vgpreload_memcheck-amd64-linux.so) ==83263== by 0x188F16: getbytes (m_memory.c:21) ==83263== by 0x1D94F8: jack_polling_callback (s_audio_jack.c:115) ==83263== by 0x4A7AECC: ??? (in /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjack.so.0.1.0) ==83263== by 0x4A7AB87: ??? (in /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjack.so.0.1.0) ==83263== by 0x4A97F2F: ??? (in /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjack.so.0.1.0) ==83263== by 0x4B46731: start_thread (pthread_create.c:447) ==83263== by 0x4BC10FF: clone (clone.S:100) ==83263== Running it via gdb, I am getting the following message: Thread 4 "pd" received signal SIGABRT, Aborted. [Switching to Thread 0x7ffff74926c0 (LWP 109587)] __pthread_kill_implementation (threadid=<optimized out>, signo=signo@entry=6, no_tid=no_tid@entry=0) at ./nptl/pthread_kill.c:44 warning: 44 ./nptl/pthread_kill.c: No such file or directory Then, I build Pd tag 0.54.1 commit 0259d003 and everything works fine, while I am getting the same error directly from Pd tag 0.55-0test1 commit 46e3ec2d. I manage to open Pd in callback mode while avoiding polling. Here some details about my setup: Debian 12, Linux kernel 6.10 Jackd2 installed via apt, v 1.9.22 Pd installed via apt, 0.55.1, and then built locally using --enable-debug --enable-jack as flags for the configuration. Source code cloned from git. I also tried to search (randomly) in my local machine where pthread_kill.c is located, without success. libpthread is in: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/ . I took a look at recent emails and issues on Github but I do not see anything relevant with this issue. My next step is to compare and study the relevant code (starting from s_audio_jack.c) that differs between 0.54.1 and 0.55.0test1. If someone has some ideas, they are appreciated. Additionally, if useful, I can report an issue on Github. Honestly, I am stuck while understanding if it is an issue on my local machine, such that an issue may be noise on the main repo. Best regards, Marco

3 2

ready for 0.55-1?
by Miller Puckette 19 Sep '24

19 Sep '24

To Pd Dev - What do you think, is it time to put 0.55-1 out? If I don't hear any objections I'll stick out a "test" one Saturday, and maybe the real one in a week or so. cheers M

6 15

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

2007

2006

2005

2004

2003

2002

Pd-dev September 2024