Pd-dev September 2014

pd-dev@lists.iem.at

19 participants
18 discussions

Re: [PD-dev] [PD] Should message objects be able to pre-parse $0 into valid dollarzero?
by Miller Puckette 15 Sep '14

15 Sep '14

This leads to an interesting point - '$0' might recently have become more important than it was before because of the multiple-libpd-instances features in 0.46 - any libpd patch wanting to support multiple instances will need some $0-ish disambiguation. The recursion problem (that Ico asked about) is this... if a message box has to set the "cuttent" canvas to itself, so that its messages can access $0, and if its message leads to another message box in another canvas, that second message box can't just bash the value of "current canvas" but rather would have to save the previous one (and restore it when done) so that, when control returns to the first message box, any further messages it wishes to send get its own $0 and not the bashed one. A deeper question bothers me: what about $1, etc, too? What if we're in an abstraction and want to 'speak' to $0 in our calling patch? THe usual way of doing that is for the calling patch to instantiate the abstraction with $0 as an argument. Then the abstraction itself can access it as, say, $1. But that makes me think we need a way for the message box to be able to access $1 as well as $0. It seems like this should either be something syntactic in messages themselves (that could have deep repercussions as that is at the very heart of everything), or else, perhaps, some kind of "properties" kludge, or perhaps (hopefully) there's a better way I haven't thought of. Related: it would be nice if message boxs sprouted inlets for $ args ala Max. Even better if it could sprout multiple outlets so that one could send to multiple destinations without the need to use names at all. Even better if it could do tests and loops... oops, now we're writing a computer language. Should there be a 'generalized' message box that doesn't use binbuf_eval at all but rather gets a more spohisticated interpreter? Yet another possible direction: the new "text" object could be given a way to access the contents of message boxes, so that people could write their own semantics any way they please. Or externs could get some kind of pathway so that one could send message box strings to lua, etc. Hmm, time for another Pd convention :) M On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 10:23:06AM -0700, Phil Stone wrote: > I can add nothing of substance to this argument, but agree fully with Ivica. > In many years, I have yet to hear a convincing argument why $0 cannot be > recognized as the unique canvas identifier inside a message box. On the plus > side, it would eliminate a great deal of cruft hanging off of message boxes > used to kludge $0 into messages, something which occurs constantly, at least > in my patches. > > > Phil Stone > UC Davis > > On 9/10/14, 10:08 AM, Ivica Bukvic wrote: > > > >What about for instance arrays that should maintain scope inside a > >specific abstraction so that you can have multiple independent > >abstractions? $0 is very useful IMHO and is also necessary to stay due to > >backwards compatibility concerns. Therefore, I think the discussion should > >be limited to a simple yes or no for $0 substitution inside a message as > >it does not introduce a myriad of other questions. > > > >Having message recognize it as such (the code already seeks to resolve > >dollarzero but fails because the canvas was not set as current which > >should be a simple addition of a couple of lines of code) makes sense even > >if the only benefit is not having to do [$0] or what you are suggesting, > >namely [zerofy-me]. It is also worth noting that there is no reason why > >the two could not coexist. > > > >Yet, as it stands right now, $0, contrary to what has been already said in > >both threads on this topic, is an anomaly inside a message box and behaves > >like nothing else anywhere else in the code and as such this should be a > >no-brainer fix, just like having a trigger with static values, like [t 0 f > >1] for opening a gate, passing a value, and then immediately closing it. > >This is what pd-l2ork does (and so does Max). So, rather than putting > >redundant messages with static values below the [t b] outlet, one object > >solves it all. To me this is the same situation where message can do it > >all, and if that makes my patching quicker, I am all for it. > > > >On Sep 10, 2014 12:48 PM, "Jonathan Wilkes" <jancsika(a)yahoo.com > ><mailto:jancsika@yahoo.com>> wrote: > > > > Two things: > > > > 1) the lack of "$0" in messages is only a symptom of a bigger > > problem with scope of binding symbols in Pd. I'd rather see new > > objects (or wrapper objects) that handle scope in a sensible > > manner which doesn't require typing "$0-" at all. There's already > > no need for $0 in your preset_hub/node design. Why not extend the > > hub/node idea and get rid of the need for $0 completely? > > > > [hub]/[node] = [send]/[receive] > > [hub~]/[node~] = [throw~]/[catch~] > > etc. > > > > 2) On a more superficial note, isn't the problem that Pd doesn't > > store stray "\n" characters in message boxes? The only time I can > > think of when one would have a real desire for $0 in a message box > > is when initializing a bunch of receivers: > > > > [; $0-foo 1; > > $0-bar 2; > > $0-flub 3;( > > > > But if the box stored "\n" you could get the same clean format > > with commas: > > [foo 1, > > bar 2, > > flub 3( > > | > > [zerofy-me] <- add a "$0-" to the selector > > | | > > [send] > > > > No ugly zeros, no leading semi-colon, everybody wins! > > > > -Jonathan > > > > > > On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 2:27 AM, Ivica Bukvic <ico(a)vt.edu > > <mailto:ico@vt.edu>> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sep 10, 2014 1:17 AM, "Chris McCormick" <chris(a)mccormick.cx > > <mailto:chris@mccormick.cx>> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ivica, > > > > > > On 10/09/14 04:19, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote: > > > > Yet, I wonder why message shouldn't be able to pre-parse $0 > > into a valid > > > > dollarzero (canvas instance), when there will never be a > > message one > > > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > There has been a lot of discussion regarding this over the years > > which > > > might be good to read to get an idea on the different > > > philosophical/language design issues: > > > > > > > > <http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.puredata.general/56365> > > Thanks, Chris, for bringing this to my attention. Since one of > > Miller's core ideas behind pd is absolute backwards compatibility, > > most of alternatives suggested in that thread would cause > > unacceptable breakage with backwards compatibility or a really > > kludge workaround for the support of legacy patches. It seems to > > me Phil really has a point I completely agree with. FWIW, I am > > looking to implement this in pd-l2ork and as soon as I get a > > better idea about the recursion Miller mentioned and how to > > circumvent it, it should find its way into pd-l2ork's source. > > Best, > > Ico > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Chris. > > > > > > -- > > > http://mccormick.cx/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pd-list(a)lists.iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at> mailing list > > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > > > > > > -- > Phil Stone > Programmer - Application Development Team > Information Technology > UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine > 530-752-5282 (o) > > _______________________________________________ > Pd-list(a)lists.iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

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Re: [PD-dev] [PD] pd gui
by Colet Patrice 14 Sep '14

14 Sep '14

Le 13/09/2014 23:37, Ivica Ico Bukvic a écrit : > > On 9/13/2014 5:10 PM, Colet Patrice wrote: >> >> I don't know the implications of introducing some wizard that rewrite >> code into patches for backward compatibility, >> but the idea looks seducing for me because it might break inertia >> that makes the GUI still looking like patching in the nineties. >> >> Sorry for the cynicism but it's truely a joke we sometimes share when >> it's about pd interface. >> > If you would like to contribute to "upgrading" the UI to something > more contemporary, we could always use more help on pd-l2ork side of > things where the canvas currently uses SVG for drawing all contents > (see http://l2ork.music.vt.edu/main/?page_id=2554 for more info). More > so, we are currently starting to port entire gui to qt library which > should make things considerably more flexible/efficient... > I'm allready using pd-l2ork on my linux boxes when I don't use stuff we can only find in pd-0.45 and greater, particulary the ability of storing text in datastructure, and when I don't have to rewrite an install script. I'm even advising any new comer using GNU/Linux to use l2ork before he is disgusted by the old interface, but they are a few, almost all people I know (and sometimes work with) that would use pd have OSX or Windows and have no clue about how to install l2ork. This imply a very tiny collaborative field, which doesn't sound really reassuring, even if on screenshots this looks great. Anyway, the use of qt looks promising and might give to me the opportunity of upgrading my pianoroll interface. Regards, patco > Best, >

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[pure-data:feature-requests] #139 add initbang to pd vanilla
by Sebastian Shader 14 Sep '14

14 Sep '14

--- ** [feature-requests:#139] add initbang to pd vanilla** **Status:** open **Group:** Next Release (example) **Created:** Sun Sep 14, 2014 03:06 AM UTC by Sebastian Shader **Last Updated:** Sun Sep 14, 2014 03:06 AM UTC **Owner:** Miller Puckette it would be very helpful in dynamic patching! --- Sent from sourceforge.net because pd-dev(a)lists.iem.at is subscribed to https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/feature-requests/ To unsubscribe from further messages, a project admin can change settings at https://sourceforge.net/p/pure-data/admin/feature-requests/options. Or, if this is a mailing list, you can unsubscribe from the mailing list.

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Re: [PD-dev] [PD] Should message objects be able to pre-parse $0 into valid dollarzero?
by Jonathan Wilkes 12 Sep '14

12 Sep '14

That's not a bad idea, but I think it would have to be a construction that wouldn't break backwards compatibility. I suppose I can't think of an obvious case where something like @1 would currently be used inside a message box. But with backwards compatibility an accumulation of edge cases can be just as frustrating as breaking obvious cases. Also, the fact that these variables would be able to get expanded within a string makes more edge cases likely. -Jonathan On Friday, September 12, 2014 5:36 AM, i go bananas <hard.off(a)gmail.com> wrote: what about using a new symbol altogether for message boxes to pass creation arguments and $0 value? maybe @0. @1, etc???

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Making externals work by sending post("",);
by Ed Kelly 12 Sep '14

12 Sep '14

Hi devs, I've recently, and a number of times in the past had a problem with writing externals which is this: An external is supposed to output something (such as a list) from an internally stored array, and it does not work. When I add a post("This is this %d",x->theValue); It starts working. This has happened to my code more than once, both in Pd under Linux and in libPd in iOS. It's happened not just recently, but over a number of years. I wonder if there is a relationship between Pd and the use of internal arrays that has to be cemented in some way before it can work, and if there is some problem in the Pd code (or I might be stupid about something). I'll try to find a simple way of demonstrating this - the current extern is about 1800 lines of C, but maybe I can cook up a test if I have time. Has anyone else had this problem? Ed Ninja Jamm - a revolutionary new music remix app from Ninja Tune and Seeper, for iPhone and iPad http://www.ninjajamm.com/ Gemnotes-0.2: Live music notation for Pure Data, now with dynamics! http://sharktracks.co.uk/

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Re: [PD-dev] [PD] help compiling recent GEM
by Antoine Villeret 12 Sep '14

12 Sep '14

hi, you should tell ./configure script where pd resides to help it finding Gem's abstractions. just reconfigure with something : ./configure --with-pd=/usr/include/pd Of course, change the path according to where Pd-extended put the headers. Also there is a discussion concerning this in the mailing list but I can't find it again now... + a -- do it yourself http://antoine.villeret.free.fr 2014-09-12 10:34 GMT+02:00 mick mengucci <misturapura(a)gmail.com>: > > Hi > I just compiled the recent version of GEM on downloaded from > https://github.com/umlaeute/Gem and I followed the instructions on that > page. > > I am had to run the bash autogen.sh before of autoconfig, and more than > this it happens that when I open pd-extended with the new GEM all pix_ > objects seem ok except for [gemwin] !!! which does not exist. Or, if I do > -path /.abstractions > it exists but simply does not work. > > I run pd-extended 0.43.4, with Xubuntu 14.04, 64 bit. > > Thanks for any feedback > Mick > > > -- > mickmengucci.bandcamp.com > facebook.com/mickmengucci3 > facebook.com/Labio.pt > <http://WWW.MISTURAPURA.NET>MISTURAPURA.NET <http://WWW.MISTURAPURA.NET> > pure mixture vibration since 1995 > > _______________________________________________ > Pd-list(a)lists.iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > >

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Should message objects be able to pre-parse $0 into valid dollarzero?
by Ivica Ico Bukvic 12 Sep '14

12 Sep '14

Miller et al, The current code suggests that this should happen (binbuf_eval calls the appropriate function), but since canvas_setcurrent is never called, it fails and returns 0. Yet, I wonder why message shouldn't be able to pre-parse $0 into a valid dollarzero (canvas instance), when there will never be a message one could send into it that could trump this argument (how would one specify an argument $0 anyhow)? I do understand that message is not meant to pre-parse values, but shouldn't this be an exception? That way one creating a message with an instance included does not have to go through the trouble of creating an [$0] object that needs to be packed with the rest of the list and then forwarded onward to a message object. Thoughts? If others are in favor of this idea, should this take place for all types of messages passed into message object (bang, list, anything, blob, etc.)? -- Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A. Associate Professor Computer Music ICAT Senior Fellow DISIS, L2Ork Virginia Tech School of Performing Arts - 0141 Blacksburg, VA 24061 (540) 231-6139 ico(a)vt.edu www.performingarts.vt.edu disis.music.vt.edu l2ork.music.vt.edu

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How to submit patches to to maxlib and other externals?
by Ivica Ico Bukvic 08 Sep '14

08 Sep '14

I have a fix that allows average object to accept arbitrary amount of arguments to average against, rather than being hardwired to 128. Also, does checks against negative values passed into the right inlet... So, where do I submit this? -- Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A. Associate Professor Computer Music ICAT Senior Fellow DISIS, L2Ork Virginia Tech School of Performing Arts - 0141 Blacksburg, VA 24061 (540) 231-6139 ico(a)vt.edu www.performingarts.vt.edu disis.music.vt.edu l2ork.music.vt.edu

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Pd-dev September 2014