I think, that the Development tab could disappear into Documentation. I don't quite see what else than a kind of Doc could be in a Development folder.

I think development is for developers Info and Helps and Documentation for Users, so that they dont confronted with too much stuff they cant understand.

mfg winfried

On Thursday, Jun 12, 2003, at 09:34 America/New_York, Frank Barknecht wrote:

...

I think there are too many tabs planed

I just propose that instead of

Public Relations (need a better name)

 - news
 - announcements
 - blog?

Exchange - patches - "art" (tracks, GEM pictures, flash-installations)

there is a news which is also announcements (see now news, everyone can write) instead of a blog we can do a central wiki, which is just better. Everyone can make an own Wiki oder Photoalbum etc...

Patches could be under Downloads or development.

I agree with that. I think, we should focus the front page on changing content to attract visitors, i.e. all kinds of news. So a user can submit a patch or a mp3 and write a news item about that. After review, this can go on the main page, linking to for example the patch area or the user's Mamber area.

I don't think that a Wiki is a good replacement for a blog. The wiki is great for organizing info, like pd stammtisch meetings, etc., but a blog would be much better for news and announcements since blog's are very good for promoting discussions. But instead of calling those sections 'blog' and 'wiki', I think they should be called by their intended use: blog=news/announcements wiki=info/organizing )but we'll need better names that than. 'News' works well for the news/announcements/blog section, but I don't have an idea for the wiki/info/organizing section yet.

I agree that the 'News' should be the front page though. Which means that the 'About Pd' section probably isn't needed. It should be a section under 'Docs'.

As for 'Exchange' I actually really like this idea. I think it would be awesome to have an informal place to swap patches. Finished patches should go into the CVS, but it would be great to have an exchange for works in progress, simple demonstrations, etc. As for tracks/videos/art, this might fit into 'News', but I think a web forum format would probably be best for the 'Exchange'. Plus a forum in the 'Exchange' could be used for getting help for people who don't want to join the list in order to ask the occasional question.

I see this a lot at my university. Lots of people take the Intro to Sound and MIDI class and learn Max/PD. But they are hesitant to join the list in order to ask for help since they are just starting out and not sure whether they are going to focus on pd. Plus I think that forums are a better format for asking for help, especially for beginners, since you don't need to get a ton of email that is confusing or unrelated.

...

so we have

  - News (very simple news)

optional:

  - a calendar for events. as a sidebox only on main page

and other things should go out.

A calender is a great idea, especially if it is open to everyone to post stuff on it. I would love to see a calender crowded with pd events.

I think, that the Development tab could disappear into Documentation. I don't quite see what else than a kind of Doc could be in a Development folder.

I think that the Developer section is actually useful as something separate from downloads and docs. I think that dev downloads and docs should be included in the downloads and docs sections respectively. The Developer section is all about who is doing what, how to join, etc., like is listed on the structure in the Wiki:

- how to join the [SourceForge project|http://pure-data.sf.net] - list of current projects/developers

I don't see this content fitting in elsewhere, except pure-data.sf.net, but I think that pure-data.org should be THE central site for all info. I think having this as a separate section highlights that pd is a very open system, and that _anyone_ can join in and contribute, whether it just be a couple objects, or more substantial work. So the Developer section should be all about getting people to join the central project so that their objects become part of the central distros. Developer news, docs, and downloads would be in the regular news, docs, and downloads section.

Whew, I guess I have been thinking about this a bit...

.hc

On Thursday, Jun 12, 2003, at 12:20 America/New_York, Marc Lavallée wrote:

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Le 12 Juin 2003 09:59, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :

...

I don't think that a Wiki is a good replacement for a blog.

With Plone, blogs and wikis are not that useful. Plone already have a news section, and every registered user can submit news, events, files, links, images, create forums, etc. Plone is a groupware, not only a portal system, so people better get registered in order to participate. It's too confusing when there's duplicate functionnalities in such a system.

What I mean by 'blog' is a page where people can respond to postings, what I mean by 'wiki' is a site that _anyone_ can edit (i.e. without registering). I think we need this functionality in the pure-data site, but it can be implemented in the plone way. I am very hesitant to make the whole site operate in the plone way since few users know the plone way, while many know web forums, blogs, and wikis. If everyone has to learn the plone way, I think we'd lose a fair amount of postings since people wouldn't want to bother learning some new software. If we can make the site seem like a blog, forum, or wiki, while using the plone functionality, then that would be ideal.

This is what I think this means in practical terms:

blog = a section where news/announcements have to be reviewed/published but then anonymous responses/discussion are allowed.

forum = a section where anonymous can publish and respond/discuss

wiki = a section where anonymous can edit/publish but without a discussion/responses

I am not sure that having everything be a discussion board would necessarily be the best thing. I think it should be highlighted in some sections (i.e.'news'), and take a minor role in others (i.e. 'Docs', 'Downloads')

...

As for 'Exchange' I actually really like this idea. I think it would be awesome to have an informal place to swap patches.

Registered users can put their stuff in their own publication space. The exchange section could gather informations about user's patches. I'd prefer people to actually use Plone the way it's designed instead of turning the sections as informal and messy web forums.

Right, everyone can publish their own content in their own space, but other moderated spaces, like an 'Exchange' section, would be very useful in organizing all the content on people's personal space. So I think it would work like this: people put up whatever they want on their own space. If they want, they can submit parts to be published in various moderated sections (Exchange, Development, News, Downloads). What I want to figure out now is how Plone allows us to manage all this user published content to make coherent sections while allowing all the individual publishers to manage their content.

.hc

Hello,

[...]

...

blog = a section where news/announcements have to be reviewed/published

The news section already works that way. The only requirement to post news is to be registered.

I think also a blog (or weblog) is the same as news. Everone can submit, some reviewers can publish it and all news can be commented with threads.

The only thing is that on NewsItem there is not impliciple a picture, or something like a thumbnail or so. So we could change the News in for this behavior.

as an example, i have done this a year ago within http://localtask.mur.at/ where the chronikentrys can do more than news

...

but then anonymous responses/discussion are allowed.

Registered users can comment the news items like a threaded discussion. It's probably possible to allow anonymous users as well, but I believe this feature should be restricted to registered users.

(also anonymous could comment if we allow it).

...

forum = a section where anonymous can publish and respond/discuss

I tried to add a forum but this feature is not installed or not available on testpd.

...

wiki = a section where anonymous can edit/publish but without a discussion/responses

There should be only one wiki then, named "Public Publication Space".

...

I am not sure that having everything be a discussion board would necessarily be the best thing. I think it should be highlighted in some sections (i.e.'news'), and take a minor role in others (i.e. 'Docs', 'Downloads')

Wikis, blogs, forums, comments, all those means "I can participate". It's all good but we should not confuse users by adding duplicated features. The "comment" feature seems more than enough as an annotation mechanism. Forums should not be integrated into sections like Docs and Downloads, but only into a "Forums" section.

The Wiki Product consists of a WikiWeb and WikiPages. The goal is everone can open an wiki for his product (it is searchable over the whole side) and can link to other wikis.

I have made one wiki for our Webpage development.

...

Right, everyone can publish their own content in their own space, but other moderated spaces, like an 'Exchange' section, would be very useful in organizing all the content on people's personal space.

I like the idea. The only problem is to track modifications and fix broken links from time to time.

Ok, I would suggest, we need a Product called "Project" or so, which is in fact a Folder but has an Lead-in and title and maybe some other predefined fields like category etc.

The Collaboration page makes an automatic search over the site collect the Projects on a list. Also Projects could be filtered for other Lists.

In the ProjectFolder the owner can make a default view and Wikis and Files to download or links to cvs etc...

We could say everything is a project

so a a project is a patch, docu, piece of art, etc whatever poeple can think of.

each project can contain other projects.

project places can be shared with the use of "local roles"

one question:

Projects could be done: a) under home folders or

b)a folder where people can add their projects.

with a we have less work, with b the URLS can'change so fast if people rename or move their projects under their home.

with b) the Navigation tool can make reflect an organisation structure.

we have done this under the http://iem.at/ (but not really finished)

But, maybe we should keep it just simple as standard Plone.

mfg winfried

Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

a blog would be much better for news and announcements since blog's are very good for promoting discussions.

Plone also does provide "Discussion" for (at least) News items, that enable slashdot-like interaction focused on a certain, current topic.

As for 'Exchange' I actually really like this idea. I think it would be awesome to have an informal place to swap patches. Finished patches should go into the CVS, but it would be great to have an exchange for works in progress, simple demonstrations, etc.

I also would like to encourage "Exchange". Maybe it doesn't have to be a folder on its own, but more a kind of "item" in Plone like another kind of News-item.

I think that the Developer section is actually useful as something separate from downloads and docs. I think that dev downloads and docs should be included in the downloads and docs sections respectively. The Developer section is all about who is doing what, how to join, etc., like is listed on the structure in the Wiki:

- how to join the [SourceForge 
project|http://pure-data.sf.net]
- list of current projects/developers

I don't see this content fitting in elsewhere, except pure-data.sf.net, but I think that pure-data.org should be THE central site for all info.

But isn't this just developer information and thus does belong to Doc->Dev ? And isn't every Pd user a developer, too (of patches)?

I think having this as a separate section highlights that pd is a very open system, and that _anyone_ can join in and contribute, whether it just be a couple objects, or more substantial work. So the Developer section should be all about getting people to join the central project so that their objects become part of the central distros.

Well, maybe I'm beginning to see your point. So we have bascially two target audiences: Pd users and Pd developers. Of course both groups mix. In the interest of de-cluttering the navigation, how about moving the "Members" entry in the tabs a stage deeper in favour of a "Community" tab up front. Community could host Exchange, blog/forum, list of Members, list of developers, of musicians using Pd,...?

I'm not decided on that, though.

ciao