Hello all,
Great to see there is a specific mailing list about the pd website. I'm writing a mail here, in reaction of the discussion on the mailing list.
I also feel that the pd web site is too complex to be easily used.
I think there is two important problems:
- the lack of symmetry between the menu on the left, and the main content. For example, if we click on "community" http://puredata.info/community in the main content, we have a page titled FrontPage (I know this is due to the plone architecture) and then we have a beautiful detailed list, but it's not the same with the list on the right. Worst is the "Subtopics" in the end of the Page that is often not so much related. This is specially visible in the "Documentation" category: http://puredata.info/docs where the effort of the FrontPage has not been done. I think this is an important step to facilitate exploration of the Pd website.
- The complex sublevels / and unclear hierarchy For example : in the "docs" category, I think there is too much subtopics. "Tutorial / howtos" should be united with "workshop", and "style guide" must be a subtopic within this category I think. This problem leads to a hierarchy problem that makes categories important, when they should not. For example "Pd-logos" is at the time as important as "mailing-lists". I find this difficult for people to find informations, as well as to add informations in the good categories. Having a clear hierarchy, persistent over the years should improve both.
These two topics are somehow related, what I should propose is to discuss a tree of the website, and then to create an architecture that could only be modified by admins, and that should last nearly the same for years. But adding articles in most of this categories / directory should be open to every member.
The main problem I see, is how to move / reorganize all the existing content in a new architecture. and how to modifiy plone in a way i described first.
Anyhow, I'll be glad to help to any evolution of the site, even if my knowledge of plone is limited. Best,
Nicolas
I think the easiest thing to do is for people to adopt a section. I've been working quite a bit on the /docs/ section, and I plan on continuing. But of course, I'm happy for people to contribute directly and to hear suggestions.
On Feb 13, 2012, at 3:30 PM, Nicolas Montgermont wrote:
Hello all,
Great to see there is a specific mailing list about the pd website. I'm writing a mail here, in reaction of the discussion on the mailing list.
I also feel that the pd web site is too complex to be easily used.
I think there is two important problems:
- the lack of symmetry between the menu on the left, and the main content. For example, if we click on "community"
http://puredata.info/community in the main content, we have a page titled FrontPage (I know this is due to the plone architecture) and then we have a beautiful detailed list, but it's not the same with the list on the right. Worst is the "Subtopics" in the end of the Page that is often not so much related. This is specially visible in the "Documentation" category: http://puredata.info/docs where the effort of the FrontPage has not been done. I think this is an important step to facilitate exploration of the Pd website.
I think you should take on the structure of the /community/ section and try to make it clearer. You probably should check with other people who have contributed to that section, but don't let that hold you back.
As for the FrontPage of the /docs/ section, that is carefully done. The way the left-menus work is that they represent deeper levels while the stuff on the FrontPage are the current level. It might work better if the whole /docs/ section was a 'wiki folder' then it would act like a unified wiki.
.hc
- The complex sublevels / and unclear hierarchy
For example : in the "docs" category, I think there is too much subtopics. "Tutorial / howtos" should be united with "workshop", and "style guide" must be a subtopic within this category I think. This problem leads to a hierarchy problem that makes categories important, when they should not. For example "Pd-logos" is at the time as important as "mailing-lists". I find this difficult for people to find informations, as well as to add informations in the good categories. Having a clear hierarchy, persistent over the years should improve both.
These two topics are somehow related, what I should propose is to discuss a tree of the website, and then to create an architecture that could only be modified by admins, and that should last nearly the same for years. But adding articles in most of this categories / directory should be open to every member.
The main problem I see, is how to move / reorganize all the existing content in a new architecture. and how to modifiy plone in a way i described first.
Anyhow, I'll be glad to help to any evolution of the site, even if my knowledge of plone is limited. Best,
Nicolas
Pdweb mailing list Pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
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There is no way to peace, peace is the way. -A.J. Muste
Le 16/02/12 03:45, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
I think you should take on the structure of the /community/ section and try to make it clearer. You probably should check with other people who have contributed to that section, but don't let that hold you back.
Yes it's a nice idea to have one people in charge of one section. I can handle the "community" section if it's a problem for nobody. My thoughts about it:
* It could be organized this way:
community - mailing list (page) - forums (page) - IRC (page) - conventions (folder) - meetings (folder) - member downloads (folder?)
- the "software" and "exhibition" must get out of this section cause they are important topics, and have specific tabs in the menus. - Pd art / Pd music / tracks / ... should go into the "exhibition" - patchings circles and local pd groups can be subsection of a bigger "meetings" category. - member downloads should include pd patches / projects that doesn't take the shape of librairies.
* every sub section must have a formatted page, even if it's a folder
* creating folder should be disabled for standard members to prevent having a complex menu on the left. but users may create page/content in the member download / meetings / convention topics.
* users can edit all pages. except maybe the "community" one.
* How can I easily know who has worked in that section? when i hit "history" i only have a possiblity to reverse the last edit.
* I was wandering if there is an easy possiblity to get rid of the "Frontpage" title, i've tested to create a page for my profile and to display it instead of the folder listing: http://puredata.info/Members/nixhol it's working well, what is the difference with, for example the community folder? http://puredata.info/community
What do you think? Best, n
This approach sounds good to me too. I can manage the exhibition page, Nicholas the community section (I guess we could collaborate on that, so to swap the needed page), and perhaps somebody else will come up.
It might be well worth the effort.
M
On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 6:04 AM, Nicolas Montgermont < nicolas_montgermont@yahoo.fr> wrote:
Le 16/02/12 03:45, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
I think you should take on the structure of the /community/ section and
try to make it clearer. You probably should check with other people who have contributed to that section, but don't let that hold you back.
Yes it's a nice idea to have one people in charge of one section. I can handle the "community" section if it's a problem for nobody. My thoughts about it:
- It could be organized this way:
community
mailing list (page)
forums (page)
IRC (page)
conventions (folder)
meetings (folder)
member downloads (folder?)
the "software" and "exhibition" must get out of this section cause they
are important topics, and have specific tabs in the menus.
- Pd art / Pd music / tracks / ... should go into the "exhibition"
- patchings circles and local pd groups can be subsection of a bigger
"meetings" category.
- member downloads should include pd patches / projects that doesn't take
the shape of librairies.
every sub section must have a formatted page, even if it's a folder
creating folder should be disabled for standard members to prevent
having a complex menu on the left. but users may create page/content in the member download / meetings / convention topics.
users can edit all pages. except maybe the "community" one.
How can I easily know who has worked in that section? when i hit
"history" i only have a possiblity to reverse the last edit.
- I was wandering if there is an easy possiblity to get rid of the
"Frontpage" title, i've tested to create a page for my profile and to display it instead of the folder listing: http://puredata.info/Members/nixhol it's working well, what is the difference with, for example the community folder? http://puredata.info/community
What do you think? Best,
n
Pdweb mailing list Pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
Yay! Thanks for stepping up to the tasks, Marco and Nicolas. I think this plan makes sense, and it will definitely be worth the effort.
Nicolas, I think your plans sound good. It makes sense to also document the guidelines we come up with on the site. The docs/site_docs section seems appropriate for what you've just written up.
I also wrote some comments inline below:
On Feb 19, 2012, at 6:35 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote:
This approach sounds good to me too. I can manage the exhibition page, Nicholas the community section (I guess we could collaborate on that, so to swap the needed page), and perhaps somebody else will come up.
It might be well worth the effort.
M
On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 6:04 AM, Nicolas Montgermont nicolas_montgermont@yahoo.fr wrote:
Le 16/02/12 03:45, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
I think you should take on the structure of the /community/ section and try to make it clearer. You probably should check with other people who have contributed to that section, but don't let that hold you back. Yes it's a nice idea to have one people in charge of one section. I can handle the "community" section if it's a problem for nobody. My thoughts about it:
- It could be organized this way:
community
mailing list (page)
forums (page)
IRC (page)
conventions (folder)
meetings (folder)
member downloads (folder?)
the "software" and "exhibition" must get out of this section cause they are important topics, and have specific tabs in the menus.
I would like to see the whole /community/projects/software section just be permanently moved to /downloads/ and then put redirect rules for backward compatibility. I think IOhannes said he was OK with that too. Mostly, its a matter of someone figuring out how to do it.
- Pd art / Pd music / tracks / ... should go into the "exhibition"
Those are a bit different. The exhibition has one strict rule: no self-promotion. That is the most open yet curated form that we could come up with when we organized it. And I think it still makes sense. Then, there are other areas for self-promotion. As for that section, it doesn't seem to be used much, so it could go awy.
- patchings circles and local pd groups can be subsection of a bigger "meetings" category.
- member downloads should include pd patches / projects that doesn't take the shape of librairies.
I think the 'member downloads' section is obsolete. People can either post things on their own member pages, or they can add them to the /downloads/ section.
every sub section must have a formatted page, even if it's a folder
creating folder should be disabled for standard members to prevent having a complex menu on the left. but users may create page/content in the member download / meetings / convention topics.
One possibility is using Wiki Folders for the whole community section, then everything would be wiki pages, and there would not be more levels of folders. I think there is a way to add a Wiki Page to the left menu under the community section, but I don't know how off hand.
- users can edit all pages. except maybe the "community" one.
As for editing restrictions, I don't think we need any. There has really be very few bad edits that needed to be reverted, from what I've seen. I think it'll be a lot more work for everyone to manage the restrictions than just handle the very occasional bad edits. If it does become a problem, we can revisit that.
- How can I easily know who has worked in that section? when i hit "history" i only have a possiblity to reverse the last edit.
The History browser isn't so easy to follow, but you can go back thru all of the edits if its a wiki page. Other kinds of pages are different.
- I was wandering if there is an easy possiblity to get rid of the "Frontpage" title, i've tested to create a page for my profile and to display it instead of the folder listing:
http://puredata.info/Members/nixhol it's working well, what is the difference with, for example the community folder? http://puredata.info/community
About the FrontPage title, I've gotten into weird loops where plone would then somehow automatically recreate a page called FrontPage, while leaving the one called Home. So I just gave up and went with using the default names.
.hc
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I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone." --Bjarne Stroustrup (creator of C++)
Before starting to work on this, could we consider upgrading plone? What i'm seeing from the plone website, the 4 version seems much more easy to use both for admin and users, it will be easier to manage content / and to improve layout / design. Iohannes do you think there is a possiblity of a secure upgrading from the version we have now? I mean with a backup somewhere, if it fails.
Le 20/02/12 02:36, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
- the "software" and "exhibition" must get out of this section cause they are important topics, and have specific tabs in the menus.I would like to see the whole /community/projects/software section just be permanently moved to /downloads/ and then put redirect rules for backward compatibility. I think IOhannes said he was OK with that too. Mostly, its a matter of someone figuring out how to do it.
ok
- Pd art / Pd music / tracks / ... should go into the "exhibition"Those are a bit different. The exhibition has one strict rule: no self-promotion. That is the most open yet curated form that we could come up with when we organized it. And I think it still makes sense. Then, there are other areas for self-promotion. As for that section, it doesn't seem to be used much, so it could go awy.
mmm true. Maybe we can have two "levels" here. A featured section that is no self promotion, and an "other projects" category where people can simply add their stuff?
- patchings circles and local pd groups can be subsection of a bigger "meetings" category. - member downloads should include pd patches / projects that doesn't take the shape of librairies.I think the 'member downloads' section is obsolete. People can either post things on their own member pages, or they can add them to the /downloads/ section.
* every sub section must have a formatted page, even if it's a folder * creating folder should be disabled for standard members to prevent having a complex menu on the left. but users may create page/content in the member download / meetings / convention topics.One possibility is using Wiki Folders for the whole community section, then everything would be wiki pages, and there would not be more levels of folders. I think there is a way to add a Wiki Page to the left menu under the community section, but I don't know how off hand.
I'll get a look. But i'm not sure if "wiki pages" are not a trap here, i mean which other specificities do they have?
* users can edit all pages. except maybe the "community" one.As for editing restrictions, I don't think we need any. There has really be very few bad edits that needed to be reverted, from what I've seen. I think it'll be a lot more work for everyone to manage the restrictions than just handle the very occasional bad edits. If it does become a problem, we can revisit that.
ok
* How can I easily know who has worked in that section? when i hit "history" i only have a possiblity to reverse the last edit.The History browser isn't so easy to follow, but you can go back thru all of the edits if its a wiki page. Other kinds of pages are different.
* I was wandering if there is an easy possiblity to get rid of the "Frontpage" title, i've tested to create a page for my profile and to display it instead of the folder listing: http://puredata.info/Members/nixhol it's working well, what is the difference with, for example the community folder? http://puredata.info/communityAbout the FrontPage title, I've gotten into weird loops where plone would then somehow automatically recreate a page called FrontPage, while leaving the one called Home. So I just gave up and went with using the default names.
a pity. upgrade? :) I have a bit of time this week, so maybe i'll start to work on this these days. Best, n
It would be nice to have plone upgraded. That's really up to IOhannnes, I think, since I think its only possible for him to do the work, given he manages that server.
About a totally open exhibition, perhaps we could have some kind of feed of people's projects, perhaps, where anyone can throw anything.
.hc
On Feb 20, 2012, at 4:22 AM, Nicolas Montgermont wrote:
Before starting to work on this, could we consider upgrading plone? What i'm seeing from the plone website, the 4 version seems much more easy to use both for admin and users, it will be easier to manage content / and to improve layout / design. Iohannes do you think there is a possiblity of a secure upgrading from the version we have now? I mean with a backup somewhere, if it fails.
Le 20/02/12 02:36, Hans-Christoph Steiner a écrit :
- the "software" and "exhibition" must get out of this section cause they are important topics, and have specific tabs in the menus.
I would like to see the whole /community/projects/software section just be permanently moved to /downloads/ and then put redirect rules for backward compatibility. I think IOhannes said he was OK with that too. Mostly, its a matter of someone figuring out how to do it.
ok
- Pd art / Pd music / tracks / ... should go into the "exhibition"
Those are a bit different. The exhibition has one strict rule: no self-promotion. That is the most open yet curated form that we could come up with when we organized it. And I think it still makes sense. Then, there are other areas for self-promotion. As for that section, it doesn't seem to be used much, so it could go awy.
mmm true. Maybe we can have two "levels" here. A featured section that is no self promotion, and an "other projects" category where people can simply add their stuff?
- patchings circles and local pd groups can be subsection of a bigger "meetings" category.
- member downloads should include pd patches / projects that doesn't take the shape of librairies.
I think the 'member downloads' section is obsolete. People can either post things on their own member pages, or they can add them to the /downloads/ section.
every sub section must have a formatted page, even if it's a folder
creating folder should be disabled for standard members to prevent having a complex menu on the left. but users may create page/content in the member download / meetings / convention topics.
One possibility is using Wiki Folders for the whole community section, then everything would be wiki pages, and there would not be more levels of folders. I think there is a way to add a Wiki Page to the left menu under the community section, but I don't know how off hand.
I'll get a look. But i'm not sure if "wiki pages" are not a trap here, i mean which other specificities do they have?
- users can edit all pages. except maybe the "community" one.
As for editing restrictions, I don't think we need any. There has really be very few bad edits that needed to be reverted, from what I've seen. I think it'll be a lot more work for everyone to manage the restrictions than just handle the very occasional bad edits. If it does become a problem, we can revisit that.
ok
- How can I easily know who has worked in that section? when i hit "history" i only have a possiblity to reverse the last edit.
The History browser isn't so easy to follow, but you can go back thru all of the edits if its a wiki page. Other kinds of pages are different.
- I was wandering if there is an easy possiblity to get rid of the "Frontpage" title, i've tested to create a page for my profile and to display it instead of the folder listing:
http://puredata.info/Members/nixhol it's working well, what is the difference with, for example the community folder? http://puredata.info/community
About the FrontPage title, I've gotten into weird loops where plone would then somehow automatically recreate a page called FrontPage, while leaving the one called Home. So I just gave up and went with using the default names.
a pity. upgrade? :) I have a bit of time this week, so maybe i'll start to work on this these days. Best, n
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I hate it when they say, "He gave his life for his country." Nobody gives their life for anything. We steal the lives of these kids. -Admiral Gene LeRocque
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On 2012-02-21 04:57, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
It would be nice to have plone upgraded. That's really up to IOhannnes, I think, since I think its only possible for him to do the work, given he manages that server.
i would love to. the problem is that it is not that easy with some of the extensions installed. i'll try again to migrate
fgmasdr IOhannes
Le 21/02/12 15:53, IOhannes m zmoelnig a écrit :
i would love to. the problem is that it is not that easy with some of the extensions installed. i'll try again to migrate
That'll be great, maybe we can get rid of some extensions if it's the only problem. I think upgrading may be a major improvement, it is to compare to the benefits of the blocking extensions.
If you are ok with me taking charge of the community section, i'd need more rights on this folder. At the moment, if I try to "add a wiki page" at the community page or to delete for example this page: http://puredata.info/community/Patches (not to confuse with this one : http://puredata.info/community/patches ...) i have the same error message: "Privilèges insuffisants" unsufficient rights
best, n
Yep, agree that the upgrade could be a major improvement already. IOhannes, thanks for your relentless work, I also think it's worth getting rid of some extensions, if that's the issue.
We can still add them again, or even find newer and better ones.
M
On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 4:56 PM, Nicolas Montgermont < nicolas_montgermont@yahoo.fr> wrote:
Le 21/02/12 15:53, IOhannes m zmoelnig a écrit :
i would love to. the problem is that it is not that easy with some of the extensions installed. i'll try again to migrate
That'll be great, maybe we can get rid of some extensions if it's the only problem. I think upgrading may be a major improvement, it is to compare to the benefits of the blocking extensions.
If you are ok with me taking charge of the community section, i'd need more rights on this folder. At the moment, if I try to "add a wiki page" at the community page or to delete for example this page: http://puredata.info/community/Patches (not to confuse with this one : http://puredata.info/community/patches...) i have the same error message: "Privilèges insuffisants" unsufficient rights
best, n -- http://nim.on.free.fr
Pdweb mailing list Pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
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Hans-Christoph Steiner -
IOhannes m zmoelnig -
Marco Donnarumma -
Nicolas Montgermont