I am curious why people don't contribute much to puredata.org. I am thinking of making a survey on it. We can use http:// www.surveymonkey.com/ to create it, or something else if anyone knows anything. Anyone interested in helping come up with the questions?
Here are some quick ideas:
How often do you use puredata.org?
How often do you add content to puredata.org?
How often do you edit content to puredata.org?
How useful is puredata.org?
Is it easy to find information on puredata.org?
How often do you use the "docs" section?
How often do you use the "community" section?
How often do you use the "dev" section?
Do you find puredata.org responsive?
How much does the speed of puredata.org affect your use of the site?
.hc
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!
shouldn't it be possible to see all you are asking from the log files? I think a lot of pages could be removed, because they are old (and/or not used). and the problem is not to criticize, but to find someone who wants to do the work on the page. marius.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I am curious why people don't contribute much to puredata.org. I am thinking of making a survey on it. We can use http:// www.surveymonkey.com/ to create it, or something else if anyone knows anything. Anyone interested in helping come up with the questions?
Here are some quick ideas:
How often do you use puredata.org?
How often do you add content to puredata.org?
How often do you edit content to puredata.org?
How useful is puredata.org?
Is it easy to find information on puredata.org?
How often do you use the "docs" section?
How often do you use the "community" section?
How often do you use the "dev" section?
Do you find puredata.org responsive?
How much does the speed of puredata.org affect your use of the site?
.hc
¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!
pdweb mailing list pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
I can recommend Wufoo (wufoo.com)! We use them often. They're friends of mine.
Luke
On 10/12/07, marius schebella marius.schebella@gmail.com wrote:
shouldn't it be possible to see all you are asking from the log files? I think a lot of pages could be removed, because they are old (and/or not used). and the problem is not to criticize, but to find someone who wants to do the work on the page. marius.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I am curious why people don't contribute much to puredata.org. I am thinking of making a survey on it. We can use http:// www.surveymonkey.com/ to create it, or something else if anyone knows anything. Anyone interested in helping come up with the questions?
Here are some quick ideas:
How often do you use puredata.org?
How often do you add content to puredata.org?
How often do you edit content to puredata.org?
How useful is puredata.org?
Is it easy to find information on puredata.org?
How often do you use the "docs" section?
How often do you use the "community" section?
How often do you use the "dev" section?
Do you find puredata.org responsive?
How much does the speed of puredata.org affect your use of the site?
.hc
¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!
pdweb mailing list pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
pdweb mailing list pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
This isn't about criticising, it's about finding out what people think. There could definitely be better questions. But I think the website would be a lot better if more people were willing to contribute. Very few do contribute, so I'd like to try to find out if we can change that.
.hc
On Oct 12, 2007, at 7:21 PM, marius schebella wrote:
shouldn't it be possible to see all you are asking from the log files? I think a lot of pages could be removed, because they are old (and/ or not used). and the problem is not to criticize, but to find someone who wants to do the work on the page. marius.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I am curious why people don't contribute much to puredata.org. I am thinking of making a survey on it. We can use http:// www.surveymonkey.com/ to create it, or something else if anyone knows anything. Anyone interested in helping come up with the questions? Here are some quick ideas: How often do you use puredata.org? How often do you add content to puredata.org? How often do you edit content to puredata.org? How useful is puredata.org? Is it easy to find information on puredata.org? How often do you use the "docs" section? How often do you use the "community" section? How often do you use the "dev" section? Do you find puredata.org responsive? How much does the speed of puredata.org affect your use of the site? .hc
¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!
pdweb mailing list pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
"It is convenient to imagine a power beyond us because that means we don't have to examine our own lives.", from "The Idols of Environmentalism", by Curtis White
maybe people just don't need the website so often. you want to read about installation, about externals and look for tutorials. I think that could also be hosted by someone and does not have to be a wiki. what do you think people should contribute? marius.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
This isn't about criticising, it's about finding out what people think. There could definitely be better questions. But I think the website would be a lot better if more people were willing to contribute. Very few do contribute, so I'd like to try to find out if we can change that.
.hc
On Oct 12, 2007, at 7:21 PM, marius schebella wrote:
shouldn't it be possible to see all you are asking from the log files? I think a lot of pages could be removed, because they are old (and/or not used). and the problem is not to criticize, but to find someone who wants to do the work on the page. marius.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I am curious why people don't contribute much to puredata.org. I am thinking of making a survey on it. We can use http:// www.surveymonkey.com/ to create it, or something else if anyone knows anything. Anyone interested in helping come up with the questions? Here are some quick ideas: How often do you use puredata.org? How often do you add content to puredata.org? How often do you edit content to puredata.org? How useful is puredata.org? Is it easy to find information on puredata.org? How often do you use the "docs" section? How often do you use the "community" section? How often do you use the "dev" section? Do you find puredata.org responsive? How much does the speed of puredata.org affect your use of the site? .hc
¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!
pdweb mailing list pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
"It is convenient to imagine a power beyond us because that means we don't have to examine our own lives.", from "The Idols of Environmentalism", by Curtis White
Looking at other projects, things like an up-to-date FAQ would be nice. There could also be a lot more documentation on how things work, etc.
.hc
On Oct 13, 2007, at 9:07 AM, marius schebella wrote:
maybe people just don't need the website so often. you want to read about installation, about externals and look for tutorials. I think that could also be hosted by someone and does not have to be a wiki. what do you think people should contribute? marius.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
This isn't about criticising, it's about finding out what people think. There could definitely be better questions. But I think the website would be a lot better if more people were willing to contribute. Very few do contribute, so I'd like to try to find out if we can change that. .hc On Oct 12, 2007, at 7:21 PM, marius schebella wrote:
shouldn't it be possible to see all you are asking from the log files? I think a lot of pages could be removed, because they are old (and/or not used). and the problem is not to criticize, but to find someone who wants to do the work on the page. marius.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I am curious why people don't contribute much to puredata.org. I am thinking of making a survey on it. We can use http:// www.surveymonkey.com/ to create it, or something else if anyone knows anything. Anyone interested in helping come up with the questions? Here are some quick ideas: How often do you use puredata.org? How often do you add content to puredata.org? How often do you edit content to puredata.org? How useful is puredata.org? Is it easy to find information on puredata.org? How often do you use the "docs" section? How often do you use the "community" section? How often do you use the "dev" section? Do you find puredata.org responsive? How much does the speed of puredata.org affect your use of the site? .hc
¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!
pdweb mailing list pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
------- "It is convenient to imagine a power beyond us because that means we don't have to examine our own lives.", from "The Idols of Environmentalism", by Curtis White
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated.... -John Donne
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Looking at other projects, things like an up-to-date FAQ would be nice.
The current status of the FAQ bothers me for quite a while. It's ancient in parts and doesn't reflect anymore, what people really ask on pd-list.
I made some changes and fixes today, but in the longer run I'd like to rework it a bit more. First thing to do would be to add sections to the FAQ, like "General Information", "Installing Pd", "Tips and Tricks" etc.
But before I work on this a bit more, I think the formatting question should be sorted out. For convenience a formatting with auto-TOC-building should or must be used. I won't require reST, which does it, if another format can do this as well, but I don't want to write a TOC manually anymore.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Looking at other projects, things like an up-to-date FAQ would be nice.
The current status of the FAQ bothers me for quite a while. It's ancient in parts and doesn't reflect anymore, what people really ask on pd-list.
I made some changes and fixes today, but in the longer run I'd like to rework it a bit more. First thing to do would be to add sections to the FAQ, like "General Information", "Installing Pd", "Tips and Tricks" etc.
But before I work on this a bit more, I think the formatting question should be sorted out. For convenience a formatting with auto-TOC-building should or must be used. I won't require reST, which does it, if another format can do this as well, but I don't want to write a TOC manually anymore.
what do you think of the Gem-FAQ (http://gem.iem.at/documentation/faq) i mean not on the actuality level, but on the system level. each FAQ entry is kept separately and associated with one or several categories.
mfgads.r IOhannes
Hallo, IOhannes m zmölnig hat gesagt: // IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
what do you think of the Gem-FAQ (http://gem.iem.at/documentation/faq) i mean not on the actuality level, but on the system level. each FAQ entry is kept separately and associated with one or several categories.
Ah, that's perfect! How did you do it?
Ciao
Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, IOhannes m zmölnig hat gesagt: // IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
what do you think of the Gem-FAQ (http://gem.iem.at/documentation/faq) i mean not on the actuality level, but on the system level. each FAQ entry is kept separately and associated with one or several categories.
Ah, that's perfect! How did you do it?
FAQs are part of the plone software-center.
i have now enabled them to be added for the entire site. i can undo this if it gets too confusing....
fmg.asdr IOhannes
Hallo, IOhannes m zmoelnig hat gesagt: // IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
FAQs are part of the plone software-center.
i have now enabled them to be added for the entire site. i can undo this if it gets too confusing....
Ah, that's wonderful. I've played around with it a bit already, very spiffy.
If there are no objections, I'll go and convert the old FAQ to that system as soon as I find some time.
I saw that for formatting, only Plain Text, (re)StructuredText and HTML is possible in FAQs. Which one should I use?
Ciao
Hallo, Frank Barknecht hat gesagt: // Frank Barknecht wrote:
IOhannes m zmoelnig hat gesagt: // IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
i have now enabled them to be added for the entire site. i can undo this if it gets too confusing....
If there are no objections, I'll go and convert the old FAQ to that system as soon as I find some time.
Another question: I could add a "FAQ section" to my home folder just fine, but the add item menu at http://puredata.info/docs/ or http://puredata.info/docs/faq doesn't have this item type available. How to add it there?
Ciao
Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Frank Barknecht hat gesagt: // Frank Barknecht wrote:
IOhannes m zmoelnig hat gesagt: // IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
i have now enabled them to be added for the entire site. i can undo this if it gets too confusing....
If there are no objections, I'll go and convert the old FAQ to that system as soon as I find some time.
Another question: I could add a "FAQ section" to my home folder just fine, but the add item menu at http://puredata.info/docs/ or http://puredata.info/docs/faq doesn't have this item type available. How to add it there?
i think it is just "hidden" (which is settable via the "advanced" button in the "add..." pulldown) however, copying the FAQ from your home should work fine.
a note on layout: i think that the faq should be directly in ./docs/faq and not in ./doc/faq/faq-pd/...) during migration, i would rename the old faq to faq-old.
fmg.asdr IOhannes
On 22/10/2007, at 11.34, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
a note on layout: i think that the faq should be directly in ./docs/faq and not in ./doc/faq/faq-pd/...)
problem is the there something called ./docs/FAQ which is the GEM faq.
What about a layout as: ./docs/faqs/Pd ./docs/faqs/GEM
?
That would also reflect the layout (and contents) of ./docs/manuals
Steffen Juul wrote:
On 22/10/2007, at 11.34, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
a note on layout: i think that the faq should be directly in ./docs/faq and not in ./doc/faq/faq-pd/...)
problem is the there something called ./docs/FAQ which is the GEM faq.
hmm, but the GEM FAQ is somewhere else, so i don't really understand the problem.
That would also reflect the layout (and contents) of ./docs/manuals
by accident (well, i happened to be in the ./docs section today) i stumbled across the ./docs/manual.
it consisted of 3 entries: - Pd manual - Gem manual (empty) - pure-data.org manual (empty, but the description has obviously bee last updated when pure-data.org was still relevant which is some years ago)
i have updated the sections (added puredata.info and put a link to the "site docs" in there, so there is at least some valuable information if you go there; fixed pure-data.org; added a link in the "Gem manual" to actually point to the Gem manual)
all in all i don't think we have to stick to the layout of docs/manuals/ because of it's wide acceptance :-)
fgmadsr. IOhannes
On 22/10/2007, at 20.39, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
Steffen Juul wrote:
On 22/10/2007, at 11.34, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
a note on layout: i think that the faq should be directly in ./docs/faq and not in ./doc/faq/faq-pd/...)
problem is the there something called ./docs/FAQ which is the GEM faq.
hmm, but the GEM FAQ is somewhere else, so i don't really understand the problem.
The fact that http://puredata.info/docs/faq and http://puredata.info/ docs/FAQ are too different FAQs is a problem, as i see it.
Fair enough that the system is case sensitive. But the meaning, here, is not. The one is the GEM FAQ while the other is the Pd FAQ. And even if you'd argue that meaning is case sensitive, then there is nothing in FAQ that says GEM as much as here is nothing in faq that says Pd. Hence how do you distinguish the two by look at URL/name of the folder they are in/their location on puredata.info?
That would also reflect the layout (and contents) of ./docs/manuals
by accident (well, i happened to be in the ./docs section today) i stumbled across the ./docs/manual.
it consisted of 3 entries:
- Pd manual
- Gem manual (empty)
- pure-data.org manual (empty, but the description has obviously bee
last updated when pure-data.org was still relevant which is some years ago)
i have updated the sections (added puredata.info and put a link to the "site docs" in there, so there is at least some valuable information if you go there; fixed pure-data.org; added a link in the "Gem manual" to actually point to the Gem manual)
Great work. I must have been there after you made those changes. I've add the some more 'links' from the ./docs/FrontPage as i hope to get rid of it in the future.
Btw: I don't know if there is any good reason to not 1) delete the pure-data.org link and 2) move the Site Howtos section/folder into the puredata.info folder?
all in all i don't think we have to stick to the layout of docs/ manuals/ because of it's wide acceptance :-)
I'm just trying to sort things out a bit. Even though it might be rough to delete things and move things about. But i'd rather clear/ clean things up then keep old URLs working on third-party sites. Having the ./manual and /faq sections reflect each other is, in my world, a good and clear'ed thing.
Anyways, a desire for some symmetry between those sections wasn't a "have to" such that a argument against it would ditch the ./faq layout i suggested.
Steffen Juul wrote:
problem is the there something called ./docs/FAQ which is the GEM faq.
hmm, but the GEM FAQ is somewhere else, so i don't really understand the problem.
The fact that http://puredata.info/docs/faq and http://puredata.info/docs/FAQ are too different FAQs is a problem, as i see it.
Fair enough that the system is case sensitive. But the meaning, here, is not. The one is the GEM FAQ while the other is the Pd FAQ. And even if you'd argue that meaning is case sensitive, then there is nothing in FAQ that says GEM as much as here is nothing in faq that says Pd. Hence how do you distinguish the two by look at URL/name of the folder they are in/their location on puredata.info?
i totally agree. i have no idea how the Gem-FAQ made it into ./docs/FAQ imho,it should be removed, "FAQ" should point to "faq", and one entry in the pd-FAQ would be "Where is the Gem FAQ?" which should point to the correct ressource http://gem.iem.at/documentation/faq/
Great work. I must have been there after you made those changes. I've add the some more 'links' from the ./docs/FrontPage as i hope to get rid of it in the future.
Btw: I don't know if there is any good reason to not 1) delete the pure-data.org link and 2) move the Site Howtos section/folder into the puredata.info folder?
no objections for 1), but 2) is more problematic, we should check how often this site is referred to.
all in all i don't think we have to stick to the layout of docs/manuals/ because of it's wide acceptance :-)
I'm just trying to sort things out a bit. Even though it might be rough to delete things and move things about. But i'd rather clear/clean things up then keep old URLs working on third-party sites. Having the ./manual and /faq sections reflect each other is, in my world, a good and clear'ed thing.
Anyways, a desire for some symmetry between those sections wasn't a "have to" such that a argument against it would ditch the ./faq layout i suggested.
i see your point. however, i have come to the conclusion, that the flatter the structure the better it will eventually work. i find it quite frustrating to have a deep hierarchy of directories, only to have one entry at the bottom of the well. (i guess this is a german-english pidgin)
as for making ./faq and ./manual in synch, i would suggest that none of them have any further subdirectories ./docs/manual == Pd manual ./docs/faq == Pd FAQ
that's it; no confusion with other documentation of other (though related) projects which are not updated anyhow...
mfga.dsr IOhannes
On 22/10/2007, at 22.01, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
i have no idea how the Gem-FAQ made it into ./docs/FAQ imho,it should be removed, "FAQ" should point to "faq", and one entry in the pd-FAQ would be "Where is the Gem FAQ?" which should point to the correct ressource http://gem.iem.at/documentation/faq/
Ah. That explains.
i see your point. however, i have come to the conclusion, that the flatter the structure the better it will eventually work. i find it quite frustrating to have a deep hierarchy of directories, only to have one entry at the bottom of the well. (i guess this is a german-english pidgin)
I understand. And now there is only one FAQ on puredata.info anyways, so there is no need for the extra folder layer.
as for making ./faq and ./manual in synch, i would suggest that none of them have any further subdirectories ./docs/manual == Pd manual ./docs/faq == Pd FAQ
that's it; no confusion with other documentation of other (though related) projects which are not updated anyhow...
Hmm.. I see how it fixes the "problem". But i think it's quite nice to have the collection of links to manuals to related projects. And i guess the translations are nice for some folks too. I might be alone?
Apart from that it's called 'manual_s_' so if there were to be only one manual in it then it wouldn't make much sense calling it 'manual_s_' but chaining it to 'manual' wouldn't work since then peple will loose their clicki-ty-click-link. Eh. -- I'm mainly joking.
It's great to see some activity about the dear docs section.
On Oct 22, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Steffen Juul wrote:
On 22/10/2007, at 11.34, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
a note on layout: i think that the faq should be directly in ./docs/faq and not in ./doc/faq/faq-pd/...)
problem is the there something called ./docs/FAQ which is the GEM faq.
What about a layout as: ./docs/faqs/Pd ./docs/faqs/GEM
?
That would also reflect the layout (and contents) of ./docs/manuals
I think that it would be a better idea to organize the tutorials around the ideas rather than the software. Someone is more likely to know that they want to learn "3D graphics" than "Gem".
So something like this:
basic audio audio synths audio filters
video effects video synths
3D graphics
interfacing with the physical world (HID, arduino, etc)
network programming
.hc
pdweb mailing list pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
You can't steal a gift. Bird gave the world his music, and if you can hear it, you can have it. - Dizzy Gillespie
On 22/10/2007, at 21.52, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Oct 22, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Steffen Juul wrote:
On 22/10/2007, at 11.34, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
a note on layout: i think that the faq should be directly in ./docs/faq and not in ./doc/faq/faq-pd/...)
problem is the there something called ./docs/FAQ which is the GEM faq.
What about a layout as: ./docs/faqs/Pd ./docs/faqs/GEM
?
That would also reflect the layout (and contents) of ./docs/manuals
I think that it would be a better idea to organize the tutorials around the ideas rather than the software. Someone is more likely to know that they want to learn "3D graphics" than "Gem".
So something like this: [snip]
Agreed. That is also how the catagories i've made in ./docs/tutorial are like, just not as well thought of as what you just made.
Frank Barknecht wrote:
I saw that for formatting, only Plain Text, (re)StructuredText and HTML is possible in FAQs. Which one should I use?
the good thing is, that each faq-entry can have it's own type. so nobody is forced to write their entry in reST just because frank has decided to use this one...
the bad thing is, that it doesn't use the MoinMoin.
finally i found out how to turn on the wysiwyg editor for editing in html. it was just my personal preferences that were set to use "epoz" (the no-longer-available wysiwyg editor) instead of "kupu". (not that i would want to use any of them). probably i should find a way to automatically set the editor to "kupu" for those (and only those) users, who have (for historic reasons) selected "epoz".
mfg.asdr IOhannes
On Oct 22, 2007, at 5:28 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
Frank Barknecht wrote:
I saw that for formatting, only Plain Text, (re)StructuredText and HTML is possible in FAQs. Which one should I use?
the good thing is, that each faq-entry can have it's own type. so nobody is forced to write their entry in reST just because frank has decided to use this one...
the bad thing is, that it doesn't use the MoinMoin.
i think that it is not a good thing to have different text formats in the same section. I think each section should have a specific format. This makes it much more maintainable. If the wysiwyg editor works well, which I hear it does, then it could be any format really.
.hc
finally i found out how to turn on the wysiwyg editor for editing in html. it was just my personal preferences that were set to use "epoz" (the no-longer-available wysiwyg editor) instead of "kupu". (not that i would want to use any of them). probably i should find a way to automatically set the editor to "kupu" for those (and only those) users, who have (for historic reasons) selected "epoz".
mfg.asdr IOhannes
pdweb mailing list pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
The arc of history bends towards justice. - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
i think that it is not a good thing to have different text formats in the same section. I think each section should have a specific format. This makes it much more maintainable. If the wysiwyg editor works well, which I hear it does, then it could be any format really.
well i don't know whether it's a good thing or not; i can live with both.
however: the wysiwyg editor _only_ works with HTML (if you do wysiwyg you usually don't care anyhow what the generated code looks like); so if the wysiwyg is used, the format is fixed.
AND: the use of the wysiwyg editor is a per-user preference. so all users that have opted in to use Kupu for HTML-editing automatically have the wysiwyg editor when they edit an HTML-page. (i have to check what happens if they edit something else) all others will have HTML-code to read
and finally: there is no way to enforce the use of a certain markup in a subdirectory. so it is all based on the goodwill of the users.
mfg.asdr IOhannes
On Oct 22, 2007, at 2:48 PM, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
i think that it is not a good thing to have different text formats in the same section. I think each section should have a specific format. This makes it much more maintainable. If the wysiwyg editor works well, which I hear it does, then it could be any format really.
well i don't know whether it's a good thing or not; i can live with both.
however: the wysiwyg editor _only_ works with HTML (if you do wysiwyg you usually don't care anyhow what the generated code looks like); so if the wysiwyg is used, the format is fixed.
AND: the use of the wysiwyg editor is a per-user preference. so all users that have opted in to use Kupu for HTML-editing automatically have the wysiwyg editor when they edit an HTML-page. (i have to check what happens if they edit something else) all others will have HTML-code to read
and finally: there is no way to enforce the use of a certain markup in a subdirectory. so it is all based on the goodwill of the users.
Can you set the default? With "wiki folders", you can control which syntaxes are used. This isn't available elsewhere?
.hc
mfg.asdr IOhannes
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
Looking at things from a more basic level, you can come up with a more direct solution... It may sound small in theory, but it in practice, it can change entire economies. - Amy Smith
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Can you set the default? With "wiki folders", you can control which syntaxes are used. This isn't available elsewhere?
i don't think you can do that for non ZWiki pages. and i thought even with ZWiki you can only set it site-wide. can ZWikiFolders be configured independently?
mfga.dr IOhannes
On Oct 22, 2007, at 4:08 PM, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Can you set the default? With "wiki folders", you can control which syntaxes are used. This isn't available elsewhere?
i don't think you can do that for non ZWiki pages. and i thought even with ZWiki you can only set it site-wide. can ZWikiFolders be configured independently?
AFAIK, yes.
.hc
mfga.dr IOhannes
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated.... -John Donne
On 22/10/2007, at 10.58, Frank Barknecht wrote:
If there are no objections, I'll go and convert the old FAQ to that system as soon as I find some time.
Please do. Any work in /docs is good.
best, stfn
Ps. I was thinking about "sorting" the contents in /docs/tutorial by topic...
On Oct 22, 2007, at 5:39 AM, Steffen Juul wrote:
On 22/10/2007, at 10.58, Frank Barknecht wrote:
If there are no objections, I'll go and convert the old FAQ to that system as soon as I find some time.
Please do. Any work in /docs is good.
best, stfn
Ps. I was thinking about "sorting" the contents in /docs/tutorial by topic...
"Please do. Any work in /docs is good." ;)
.hc
pdweb mailing list pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
All information should be free. - the hacker ethic
On 22/10/2007, at 18.20, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Oct 22, 2007, at 5:39 AM, Steffen Juul wrote:
Ps. I was thinking about "sorting" the contents in /docs/tutorial by topic...
"Please do. Any work in /docs is good." ;)
Hep. Plenty of rooms for improvements. like better categories. And more tutorials, not to mention.
I think this tutorial section could be come really good. It has a really lightweight publishing flow which may attract people since they can do a bunch of different things form-wise. And if it's sorted in a meaningful way...
Wrt i've got a question that relates to Pdpedia too: How much "tutorial" like material will be content on pdpedia? Or: Will pdpedia be 99% a object (class) (with meta info) database? I'm not a big fan of double work nor redundancy, that's why i ask.
Best, Steffen
On Oct 22, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Steffen Juul wrote:
On 22/10/2007, at 18.20, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Oct 22, 2007, at 5:39 AM, Steffen Juul wrote:
Ps. I was thinking about "sorting" the contents in /docs/ tutorial by topic...
"Please do. Any work in /docs is good." ;)
Hep. Plenty of rooms for improvements. like better categories. And more tutorials, not to mention.
I think this tutorial section could be come really good. It has a really lightweight publishing flow which may attract people since they can do a bunch of different things form-wise. And if it's sorted in a meaningful way...
Wrt i've got a question that relates to Pdpedia too: How much "tutorial" like material will be content on pdpedia? Or: Will pdpedia be 99% a object (class) (with meta info) database? I'm not a big fan of double work nor redundancy, that's why i ask.
Best, Steffen
pdpedia is meant to be an encyclopedia, like wikipedia. So tutorials would probably not fit there well. But I think we should also let pdpedia take its own shape. More importantly, I think Pd tutorials should be based around interactive Pd patches, so that wouldn't work with a wiki either.
.hc
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!
On 22/10/2007, at 21.50, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
pdpedia is meant to be an encyclopedia, like wikipedia. So tutorials would probably not fit there well.
OK.
But I think we should also let pdpedia take its own shape.
OK.
The thing is one can take a Pd tutorial are morph if such that is has the form of a *pedia entry. The form would be different but not the content.
More importantly, I think Pd tutorials should be based around interactive Pd patches, so that wouldn't work with a wiki either.
Yeah, i know you feel that way. And i tend to like that too. Mainly since the tutorials then can be maintained in CVS.
But 'more importantly,' ;) some people like to (and do) write up a tutorial in a non-interactive manner and some write up tutorial in a non-interactive manner and support them with interactive examples. Those tutorials are great value too, but i/you/anyone might not know about it if it wasn't for a link form ./docs/tutorials -- i.e. ./docs/ tutorials can for a hub for such tutorials.
Thats one of the things meant about free-from the other is that people can host the tutorials where ever they want, they don't need to host it on puredata.info.
I think, what Pd lacks most is one central place for documentation. since puredata.info is so terribly messed up I would love to see pdpedia becoming more and more the first address for all educational stuff. tutorials, howtos, help-patches, search engine. marius.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
pdpedia is meant to be an encyclopedia, like wikipedia. So tutorials would probably not fit there well. But I think we should also let pdpedia take its own shape. More importantly, I think Pd tutorials should be based around interactive Pd patches, so that wouldn't work with a wiki either.
.hc
¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!
pdweb mailing list pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
Hallo, marius schebella hat gesagt: // marius schebella wrote:
I think, what Pd lacks most is one central place for documentation. since puredata.info is so terribly messed up I would love to see pdpedia becoming more and more the first address for all educational stuff. tutorials, howtos, help-patches, search engine.
I think the opposite. ;) Instead of putting a lot of effort into making a second community site, the community site that we have should be improved. If you look at the Wikipedia community, they also have different sites for different purposes (pedia, media, news, etc) , etc) and there are no tutorials on the main Wikipedia site.
Ciao
On Oct 21, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Looking at other projects, things like an up-to-date FAQ would be nice.
The current status of the FAQ bothers me for quite a while. It's ancient in parts and doesn't reflect anymore, what people really ask on pd-list.
I made some changes and fixes today, but in the longer run I'd like to rework it a bit more. First thing to do would be to add sections to the FAQ, like "General Information", "Installing Pd", "Tips and Tricks" etc.
But before I work on this a bit more, I think the formatting question should be sorted out. For convenience a formatting with auto-TOC-building should or must be used. I won't require reST, which does it, if another format can do this as well, but I don't want to write a TOC manually anymore.
MediaWiki is really good at TOCs... MoinMoin isn't so nice. The wiki folder structure of plone is nice, but all of the syntaxes are not very nice. MoinMoin is like a really limited mediawiki... alas...
So far, we've had very few contributors to puredata.org, so if you are going to maintain the FAQ, then I'm fine if use reST. We'll see if people contribute...
IOhannes' method looks intriguing, but I would like to see things on puredata.org be very easy to use, rather than more efficient for a manager. If it's setup for a manager, then only the manager is going to ever use it. If it can be made really easy, so that you don't need to read any docs to use it, then it's the best of all worlds.
.hc
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
pdweb mailing list pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
There is no way to peace, peace is the way. -A.J. Muste
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
MediaWiki is really good at TOCs... MoinMoin isn't so nice.
MoinMoin normally has a macro: [[TableOfContents]] but I didn't manage to make it work on the site. Probably there's some trick one needs to use.
So far, we've had very few contributors to puredata.org, so if you are going to maintain the FAQ, then I'm fine if use reST. We'll see if people contribute...
IOhannes' method looks intriguing, but I would like to see things on puredata.org be very easy to use, rather than more efficient for a manager. If it's setup for a manager, then only the manager is going to ever use it. If it can be made really easy, so that you don't need to read any docs to use it, then it's the best of all worlds.
I think, for a FAQ all that is needed is just a macro which collects headlines, like MoinMoin's [[TableOfContents]] or reST's ".. contents::" The current FAQ doesn't use neither of these, which makes editing harder than necessary and errorprone, as internal references need to be managed manually.
Ciao
On Oct 21, 2007, at 6:30 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
MediaWiki is really good at TOCs... MoinMoin isn't so nice.
MoinMoin normally has a macro: [[TableOfContents]] but I didn't manage to make it work on the site. Probably there's some trick one needs to use.
So far, we've had very few contributors to puredata.org, so if you are going to maintain the FAQ, then I'm fine if use reST. We'll see if people contribute...
IOhannes' method looks intriguing, but I would like to see things on puredata.org be very easy to use, rather than more efficient for a manager. If it's setup for a manager, then only the manager is going to ever use it. If it can be made really easy, so that you don't need to read any docs to use it, then it's the best of all worlds.
I think, for a FAQ all that is needed is just a macro which collects headlines, like MoinMoin's [[TableOfContents]] or reST's ".. contents::" The current FAQ doesn't use neither of these, which makes editing harder than necessary and errorprone, as internal references need to be managed manually.
Sounds good. It sounds like you want to revive the FAQ, which is great. So I'll defer to you on how you want to create it. I chose MoinMoin because it's closest to MediaWiki. But it leaves a lot to be desired.
.hc
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
pdweb mailing list pdweb@iem.at http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pdweb
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
Man has survived hitherto because he was too ignorant to know how to realize his wishes. Now that he can realize them, he must either change them, or perish. -William Carlos Williams
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
IOhannes' method looks intriguing, but I would like to see things on puredata.org be very easy to use, rather than more efficient for a manager. If it's setup for a manager, then only the manager is going to ever use it. If it can be made really easy, so that you don't need to read any docs to use it, then it's the best of all worlds.
i agree.
however, i thought that it might be way more easy to use. i don't see a benefit for the manager of the site in using yet another product (apart from a personal "hey i have made this work too!!")
personally i think it rather non-user-friendly if the user wants to add a new faq item and has to skip through dozens of pages of text to find the relevant section in a weird markup language which somebody has set for them and which fucks up the entire site if they change it. furthermore, if they by accident delete a line or another, this will eventually have side-effects which they don't want (like disappearing TOC by accidentally deleting the line with "[[TableOfContents]]" or ".. contents::")
fmaf.sdr IOhannes
PS: btw i am wondering why the built-in HTML editor does not seem to work...
Hallo, IOhannes m zmoelnig hat gesagt: // IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
furthermore, if they by accident delete a line or another, this will eventually have side-effects which they don't want (like disappearing TOC by accidentally deleting the line with "[[TableOfContents]]" or ".. contents::")
Though re-adding that line is much easier than having to dig through long pages of text to find out how that certain #target for that certain FAQ entry was spelled exactly and to keep track of used ones to make sure nothing is used twice.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, IOhannes m zmoelnig hat gesagt: // IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
furthermore, if they by accident delete a line or another, this will eventually have side-effects which they don't want (like disappearing TOC by accidentally deleting the line with "[[TableOfContents]]" or ".. contents::")
Though re-adding that line is much easier than having to dig through long pages of text to find out how that certain #target for that certain FAQ entry was spelled exactly and to keep track of used ones to make sure nothing is used twice.
yes. though this really might be admin specific, it illustrates well why a monolithic approach ist just less friendly to use...
fgmasdr. IOhannes
On Oct 22, 2007, at 4:22 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
IOhannes' method looks intriguing, but I would like to see things on puredata.org be very easy to use, rather than more efficient for a manager. If it's setup for a manager, then only the manager is going to ever use it. If it can be made really easy, so that you don't need to read any docs to use it, then it's the best of all worlds.
i agree.
however, i thought that it might be way more easy to use. i don't see a benefit for the manager of the site in using yet another product (apart from a personal "hey i have made this work too!!")
personally i think it rather non-user-friendly if the user wants to add a new faq item and has to skip through dozens of pages of text to find the relevant section in a weird markup language which somebody has set for them and which fucks up the entire site if they change it. furthermore, if they by accident delete a line or another, this will eventually have side-effects which they don't want (like disappearing TOC by accidentally deleting the line with "[[TableOfContents]]" or ".. contents::")
I should clarify, I didn't really mean "but" in the first sentence. More like, "as long as it's easy to us, great!"
.hc
fmaf.sdr IOhannes
PS: btw i am wondering why the built-in HTML editor does not seem to work...
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
IOhannes' method looks intriguing, but I would like to see things on puredata.org be very easy to use, rather than more efficient for a
I should clarify, I didn't really mean "but" in the first sentence. More like, "as long as it's easy to us, great!"
ah i see. so we are all in line once again...
fgmasr.d IOhannes
On 12/10/2007, at 18.33, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I am curious why people don't contribute much to puredata.org.
I think people don't feel attached to the site. At least those that potentially could/would edit such things as the FAQ or write things up.
I agree it would be nice if things were different wrt this.
On Oct 13, 2007, at 12:09 PM, Steffen Juul wrote:
On 12/10/2007, at 18.33, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I am curious why people don't contribute much to puredata.org.
I think people don't feel attached to the site. At least those that potentially could/would edit such things as the FAQ or write things up.
I agree it would be nice if things were different wrt this.
Those would be some good questions to add too, things like:
Do you think that puredata.org is an important resource?
Do you think that puredata.org is a central part of the Pd community? If yes, what is something that makes it central? If no, do you think something is preventing it from becoming central?
I think the exhibition page would really increase the importance of puredata.org. Any chance of getting that up? Is something preventing it from happening that you need help with?
.hc
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and this we should do freely and generously. - Benjamin Franklin
On 13/10/2007, at 19.17, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I think the exhibition page would really increase the importance of puredata.org. Any chance of getting that up?
Yes.
Is something preventing it from happening that you need help with?
Well...
I can't change the text that appear in the projects list - http:// puredata.info/community/projects
I'd like to hear if you folks think the work flow described in http:// puredata.info/community/projects/exhibition/organizing is sensible and clearly put?
One problem i find it the numbering. As it is they could come out as 1,2,5,6,4,7,3,..
Other then that the steps are, as i see it, to push the idea to the pd list. I don't what to wait till i've made a full blown example exhibition. I'd rather make a real exhibition and put that up when ready and in the mean time let people work on real exhibitions too.
Steffen Juul wrote:
On 13/10/2007, at 19.17, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I think the exhibition page would really increase the importance of puredata.org. Any chance of getting that up?
Yes.
Is something preventing it from happening that you need help with?
Well...
I can't change the text that appear in the projects list - http:// puredata.info/community/projects
argh, are the workflows weird again? basically it should be like that: - go to ./community/projects/exhibition/ - click on the "contents" tab - click on the "edit" tab - change the "description"
the reason why you cannot directly click on "edit" is, that in this case you would only "edit" the 'default view' of the folder (which is the "About" page) instead of the folder.
One problem i find it the numbering. As it is they could come out as 1,2,5,6,4,7,3,..
you can just re-order the items in the "content" view via the little arrows...
fmgas.dr IOhannes
On 15/10/2007, at 16.27, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
Steffen Juul wrote:
On 13/10/2007, at 19.17, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I think the exhibition page would really increase the importance of puredata.org. Any chance of getting that up?
Yes.
Is something preventing it from happening that you need help with?
Well... I can't change the text that appear in the projects list - http:// puredata.info/community/projects
argh, are the workflows weird again? basically it should be like that:
- go to ./community/projects/exhibition/
- click on the "contents" tab
- click on the "edit" tab
- change the "description"
Sorry about the lazy "report". I should have mentioned that i have tried that. When i change the description and hit save it tells me "Please correct the indicated errors." But there are not indicates errors, or i can't see any.
One problem i find it the numbering. As it is they could come out as 1,2,5,6,4,7,3,..
you can just re-order the items in the "content" view via the little arrows...
True. I was thinking about that vol-3 might be done before vol-2, but in such case the folders can be renamed. It's not like it will happen every other day.
On Oct 15, 2007, at 10:15 AM, Steffen Juul wrote:
On 13/10/2007, at 19.17, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I think the exhibition page would really increase the importance of puredata.org. Any chance of getting that up?
Yes.
Is something preventing it from happening that you need help with?
Well...
I can't change the text that appear in the projects list - http:// puredata.info/community/projects
I'd like to hear if you folks think the work flow described in http://puredata.info/community/projects/exhibition/organizing is sensible and clearly put?
I think this looks really good and ready to go. The only comment I have on it really is that it could use MoinMoin format instead of HTML to be a bit easier to edit, but it's not a big deal either way.
Let's launch!
.hc
One problem i find it the numbering. As it is they could come out as 1,2,5,6,4,7,3,..
Other then that the steps are, as i see it, to push the idea to the pd list. I don't what to wait till i've made a full blown example exhibition. I'd rather make a real exhibition and put that up when ready and in the mean time let people work on real exhibitions too.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----
¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!
-
Frank Barknecht -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
IOhannes m zmoelnig -
IOhannes m zmölnig
-
Luke Iannini (pd) -
marius schebella -
Steffen Juul