Hey Guys
Sorry if this is on the wrong list, but I'm looking for an open source package to prepare some choral sheet music. So far I've found musescore, note edit and lilypond, but I'm not sure if I want to use any of them. Has written any sheet music in linux? Any advice on what to use?
Lilypond looks interesting, edited in plain text, then prepares a score as an image. It's a command-line scoring package!!! But I'm not sure if I want to learn to read the text file, which would be needed to write music in it.
Anyway, I'm willing to listen to any advice on this.
Andrew
From: BanjoBob Faraday jbturgid@hotmail.com To: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 5:48 PM Subject: [PD] [OT] Music Notation in linux
Hey Guys
Sorry if this is on the wrong list, but I'm looking for an open source package to prepare some choral sheet music. So far I've found musescore, note edit and lilypond, but I'm not sure if I want to use any of them. Has written any sheet music in linux? Any advice on what to use?
Lilypond looks interesting, edited in plain text, then prepares a score as an image. It's a command-line scoring package!!! But I'm not sure if I want to learn to read the text file, which would be needed to write music in it.
Anyway, I'm willing to listen to any advice on this.
I would suggest Lilypond with either Lilypondtool or Frescobaldi to enter the music: http://lilypond.org/easier-editing.html
I've used Lilypondtool and it has a nice wizard so that you can get boilerplate for your choral score and then just
focus on entering the notes. (Also it let's you see some of the commands and tweaks in dropdown lists so you don't
have to constantly refer to the notation guide to make simple tweaks.)
-Jonathan
Andrew
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I think MuseScore is the alternative but it's so buggy yet...
Lilypondtool in JEdit is also good.
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 11:48 PM, BanjoBob Faraday jbturgid@hotmail.comwrote:
Hey Guys
Sorry if this is on the wrong list, but I'm looking for an open source package to prepare some choral sheet music. So far I've found musescore, note edit and lilypond, but I'm not sure if I want to use any of them. Has written any sheet music in linux? Any advice on what to use?
Lilypond looks interesting, edited in plain text, then prepares a score as an image. It's a command-line scoring package!!! But I'm not sure if I want to learn to read the text file, which would be needed to write music in it.
Anyway, I'm willing to listen to any advice on this.
Andrew
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Whoa, Musescore looks way better than I thought it would! What kinds of bugs does 1.1 have?
Anyone know how its feature set compares to Lilypond? Some short comments on their forum
said the output was similar (because it uses the Feta font from Lilypond) but I'd love to see a
real review of how it handles some of the finer points of music notation.
-Jonathan
From: Jonghyun Kim agitato816@gmail.com To: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [PD] [OT] Music Notation in linux
I think MuseScore is the alternative but it's so buggy yet...
Lilypondtool in JEdit is also good.
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 11:48 PM, BanjoBob Faraday jbturgid@hotmail.com wrote:
Hey Guys
Sorry if this is on the wrong list, but I'm looking for an open source package to prepare some choral sheet music. So far I've found musescore, note edit and lilypond, but I'm not sure if I want to use any of them. Has written any sheet music in linux? Any advice on what to use?
Lilypond looks interesting, edited in plain text, then prepares a score as an image. It's a command-line scoring package!!! But I'm not sure if I want to learn to read the text file, which would be needed to write music in it.
Anyway, I'm willing to listen to any advice on this.
Andrew
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Hi Andrew,
I use Lilypond very often and I think it's a great tool for music notation. It contains the possibility to notate ancient and non-western music as well. It's easy to write reusable templates for different styles of music. The main disadvantage (compared to f.e. Sibelius) is that due to compile time changes of a single note take a lot of time to be visible, especially when also rendering a midi-file. I think that learning the language is not harder than learning to use a GUI-tool. BTW templates/examples are available online. "Lilypond notation reference" ( http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/lilypond/index) will be your friend.
--Funs
Hi.
On 28/02/12 11:18, Funs Seelen wrote:
Hi Andrew,
I use Lilypond very often and I think it's a great tool for music notation. It contains the possibility to notate ancient and non-western music as well. It's easy to write reusable templates for different styles of music. The main disadvantage (compared to f.e. Sibelius) is that due to compile time changes of a single note take a lot of time to be visible,
I think this can be mitigated by using some gui programme which can then export to lilypond. It does add an additional passage to the chain but can be useful for editing the music. E.g. I have used Rosegarden (which is mainly a sequencer and has the advantage of playing the music).
Lorenzo.
especially when also rendering a midi-file. I think that learning the language is not harder than learning to use a GUI-tool. BTW templates/examples are available online. "Lilypond notation reference" (http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/lilypond/index) will be your friend.
--Funs
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Le 2012-02-28 à 11:42:00, Lorenzo Sutton a écrit :
I think this can be mitigated by using some gui programme which can then export to lilypond. It does add an additional passage to the chain but can be useful for editing the music. E.g. I have used Rosegarden (which is mainly a sequencer and has the advantage of playing the music).
Is there any programme that can play a .ly file, using some reasonable expectations of what « staccato » means, et cætera ?
| Mathieu BOUCHARD ----- téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 ----- Montréal, QC
On 03/03/12 22:18, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Le 2012-02-28 à 11:42:00, Lorenzo Sutton a écrit :
I think this can be mitigated by using some gui programme which can then export to lilypond. It does add an additional passage to the chain but can be useful for editing the music. E.g. I have used Rosegarden (which is mainly a sequencer and has the advantage of playing the music).
Is there any programme that can play a .ly file, using some reasonable expectations of what « staccato » means, et cÊtera ?
You can create a midi output, with all the drawbacks and benefits. As far as I know there is no lilypond "player", but to be totally honest I'm not sure it would make so much sense as lilypond is primarily a music typesetting language.
The cited Rosegarden (but I'm sure other notation software too) has an "Interpret" function which will try to do what you describe for the 'standard' dynamics and articulation
Lorenzo.
Le 2012-03-03 à 22:54:00, Lorenzo Sutton a écrit :
You can create a midi output, with all the drawbacks and benefits. As far as I know there is no lilypond "player", but to be totally honest I'm not sure it would make so much sense as lilypond is primarily a music typesetting language.
Do you also mean it doesn't make much sense to use PureData for anything else than audio ?
And computers were only meant for doing math, too.
| Mathieu BOUCHARD ----- téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 ----- Montréal, QC
----- Original Message -----
From: Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca To: Lorenzo Sutton lorenzofsutton@gmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2012 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [PD] [OT] Music Notation in linux
Le 2012-03-03 à 22:54:00, Lorenzo Sutton a écrit :
You can create a midi output, with all the drawbacks and benefits. As far
as I know there is no lilypond "player", but to be totally honest I'm not sure it would make so much sense as lilypond is primarily a music typesetting language.
Do you also mean it doesn't make much sense to use PureData for anything else than audio ?
And computers were only meant for doing math, too.
Clunky, but it works: http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.14/Documentation/notation/the-articulate-script
| Mathieu BOUCHARD ----- téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 ----- Montréal, QC _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On 05/03/12 01:43, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Le 2012-03-03 à 22:54:00, Lorenzo Sutton a écrit :
You can create a midi output, with all the drawbacks and benefits. As far as I know there is no lilypond "player", but to be totally honest I'm not sure it would make so much sense as lilypond is primarily a music typesetting language.
Do you also mean it doesn't make much sense to use PureData for anything else than audio ?
No, nor I see the logic by which you assume I mean that from the above statement.
And computers were only meant for doing math, too.
Indeed they are. And I don't think "math" is anything dirty, with less dignity than other disciplines, or to be ashamed of. Computers are very powerful, yet stupid, calculators. In fact in Italian we still use the word "calcolatore" to address a computer. And of course 'computer' itself stems from the French "computer", and in turn from the Latin "computare". [1] Saying computers are anything different is at best a (very intriguing) fascination; at worst plain mystification.
Lorenzo.
It's also pretty fair to say that all computers do IS maths. They perform binary operations at a rate of thousands per second. The fact that we've got these binary digits to produce a human-readable display, we use it to produce audio, and represent text, and we make our input in a non-mathematical form.
That doesn't stop computers just being capable of maths.
It's why programs are called applications, they're simply another way to apply maths.
I, for one, am quite glad, because I'm good at logic, but barely average at arithmetic :p
Andrew
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 09:07:09 +0100 From: lorenzofsutton@gmail.com To: matju@artengine.ca CC: pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] [OT] Music Notation in linux
On 05/03/12 01:43, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Le 2012-03-03 à 22:54:00, Lorenzo Sutton a écrit :
You can create a midi output, with all the drawbacks and benefits. As far as I know there is no lilypond "player", but to be totally honest I'm not sure it would make so much sense as lilypond is primarily a music typesetting language.
Do you also mean it doesn't make much sense to use PureData for anything else than audio ?
No, nor I see the logic by which you assume I mean that from the above statement.
And computers were only meant for doing math, too.
Indeed they are. And I don't think "math" is anything dirty, with less dignity than other disciplines, or to be ashamed of. Computers are very powerful, yet stupid, calculators. In fact in Italian we still use the word "calcolatore" to address a computer. And of course 'computer' itself stems from the French "computer", and in turn from the Latin "computare". [1] Saying computers are anything different is at best a (very intriguing) fascination; at worst plain mystification.
Lorenzo.
[1] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/computer#Etymology
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Le 2012-03-05 à 08:22:00, Andrew Faraday a écrit :
It's also pretty fair to say that all computers do IS maths.
I know all of that and understand those principles from beginning to end. But I'm not talking about that. I mean the users' activities.
They perform binary operations at a rate of thousands per second.
Wow, that really sounds exciting !
For a 1936 Zuse-1 computer with 22-bit ints and 33-bit floats running at 1 Hz, there were already hundreds of them. Nowadays, it's impossible to get a damn phone that doesn't already do several billions per second.
| Mathieu BOUCHARD ----- téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 ----- Montréal, QC
----- Original Message -----
From: Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca To: Andrew Faraday jbturgid@hotmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [PD] [OT] Computers just for maths? WAS Music Notation in linux
Le 2012-03-05 à 08:22:00, Andrew Faraday a écrit :
It's also pretty fair to say that all computers do IS maths.
I know all of that and understand those principles from beginning to end. But I'm not talking about that. I mean the users' activities.
Users are silly. They want things like presets, beautiful interfaces, and an undo history that is too big to fit on a solar calculator. You'd do well to steer clear of them and focus on maths exercises.
-Jonathan
They perform binary operations at a rate of thousands per second.
Wow, that really sounds exciting !
For a 1936 Zuse-1 computer with 22-bit ints and 33-bit floats running at 1 Hz, there were already hundreds of them. Nowadays, it's impossible to get a damn phone that doesn't already do several billions per second.
| Mathieu BOUCHARD ----- téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 ----- Montréal, QC _______________________________________________ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:40:43 -0500 From: matju@artengine.ca To: jbturgid@hotmail.com CC: lorenzofsutton@gmail.com; pd-list@iem.at Subject: RE: [PD] [OT] Computers just for maths? WAS Music Notation in linux
Le 2012-03-05 à 08:22:00, Andrew Faraday a écrit :
It's also pretty fair to say that all computers do IS maths.
I know all of that and understand those principles from beginning to end. But I'm not talking about that. I mean the users' activities.
It's fairly true, that while it's achieved with maths, it's rarely the purpose for which they're used.
They perform binary operations at a rate of thousands per second.
Wow, that really sounds exciting !
For a 1936 Zuse-1 computer with 22-bit ints and 33-bit floats running at 1 Hz, there were already hundreds of them. Nowadays, it's impossible to get a damn phone that doesn't already do several billions per second.
I'm wondering if there's a benefit to mobile computers (with phone apps) which do less than that a second.
| Mathieu BOUCHARD ----- téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 ----- Montréal, QC
Le 2012-03-05 à 09:07:00, Lorenzo Sutton a écrit :
On 05/03/12 01:43, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Le 2012-03-03 à 22:54:00, Lorenzo Sutton a écrit :
You can create a midi output, with all the drawbacks and benefits. As far as I know there is no lilypond "player", but to be totally honest I'm not sure it would make so much sense as lilypond is primarily a music typesetting language.
Do you also mean it doesn't make much sense to use PureData for anything else than audio ?
No, nor I see the logic by which you assume I mean that from the above statement.
Think of sentences like « It doesn't make much sense to use X as a Y because X is primarily a Z »...
And computers were only meant for doing math, too.
Indeed they are. And I don't think "math" is anything dirty, with less dignity than other disciplines, or to be ashamed of.
I'm not alluding to that, I mean how computers aren't often used to explicitly doing math, whereas in the 1930's, the most newfangled user interface of the computer was a paper tape on which you'd punch machine-language directly, and you explicitly put numbers in and got numbers out, if you turned the crank for long enough.
Nowadays, numbers are still all over the interface, but they're not necessarily seen as numbers. This is what allows the numbers to become pixels and sound samples, for example.
Computers are very powerful, yet stupid, calculators. In fact in Italian we still use the word "calcolatore" to address a computer.
The word «computer» is even stupider, as it's the same root as «counter», french «compteur». A computer is just a counter. At least calcolatore implies it could do other math than just count !
And of course 'computer' itself stems from the French "computer", and in turn from the Latin "computare". [1]
I think French never had «compute(u)r», it had compte(u)r with a silent p written only to make it look like latin (the -er suffix is verb, the -eur suffix is noun). This dropping of «pu» in French is where English's «counter» comes from. French also has a quite rare word «comput» (without suffix and without corresponding verb), which might have inspired the English word, though it's also possible that English took it directly from Latin.
(But the word for «computer» in French is entirely different : in the 50's or 60's, «ordinateur» got coined using an metaphor of sorting things out, putting *order* into things.)
| Mathieu BOUCHARD ----- téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 ----- Montréal, QC
On 05/03/12 17:18, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Le 2012-03-05 à 09:07:00, Lorenzo Sutton a écrit :
On 05/03/12 01:43, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Le 2012-03-03 à 22:54:00, Lorenzo Sutton a écrit :
You can create a midi output, with all the drawbacks and benefits. As far as I know there is no lilypond "player", but to be totally honest I'm not sure it would make so much sense as lilypond is primarily a music typesetting language.
Do you also mean it doesn't make much sense to use PureData for anything else than audio ?
No, nor I see the logic by which you assume I mean that from the above statement.
Think of sentences like « It doesn't make much sense to use X as a Y because X is primarily a Z »...
It can be dangerous/misleading to extract the general rule from one single, very specific example like this, and then re-apply it to a totally different domain/example.
That is, you are applying the logic assumption:
*If* Lorenzo says: "It doesn't make much sense to use Lilypond as a midi creator as it is primarily a typesetting system"
*then* he also *always* thinks:
"It doesn't make much sense to use X as Y because X is primarily Z"
and *thus* Lorenzo thinks:
"It doesn't make much sense to use Pd as a [something-else-differnt-than-audio-creator] as it is primerily an [Audio-creation-something]
The part were you implicitly go from (cery) specific to general and back to specific again is the weakest - in my humble opinion ;)
Lorenzo.
Le 2012-03-05 à 19:58:00, Lorenzo Sutton a écrit :
It can be dangerous/misleading to extract the general rule from one single, very specific example like this, and then re-apply it to a totally different domain/example.
Yes, but then, the reasoning that you stated is not what you actually meant. You're not trying to say that it doesn't make sense to use something that is primarily a typesetting system, to do midi output. It may be because Lilypond in particular is bad at this task in particular, but you already are generalising by calling it « a midi creator » and « a typesetting system » and that a fact about the latter in general justifies a statement about the former in general.
I'm not saying that I really expressed myself well in yesterday's reply... It was a bad way to put it.
| Mathieu BOUCHARD ----- téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 ----- Montréal, QC
----- Original Message -----
From: Mathieu Bouchard matju@artengine.ca To: Lorenzo Sutton lorenzofsutton@gmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [PD] [OT] Music Notation in linux
Le 2012-03-05 à 19:58:00, Lorenzo Sutton a écrit :
It can be dangerous/misleading to extract the general rule from one single,
very specific example like this, and then re-apply it to a totally different domain/example.
Yes, but then, the reasoning that you stated is not what you actually meant. You're not trying to say that it doesn't make sense to use something that is primarily a typesetting system, to do midi output. It may be because Lilypond in particular is bad at this task in particular, but you already are generalising by calling it « a midi creator » and « a typesetting system » and that a fact about the latter in general justifies a statement about the former in general.
I gave you a link to show what Lilypond _actually_ does.
The \articulation command just changes the input for all articulations that can be simulated by altering the actual note values. So for staccato, a note value is changed to a smaller note value plus a rest, legato is changed to two voices that slightly overlap*, and so on. Of course this is clunky, because if you want to look at the score and listen to the MIDI output you need to render twice-- once using the \articulation command for the MIDI output, and another without it to get the score looking as it normally would (though I may be missing some command that will automate this).
Without the \articulation command, you can get basic MIDI output for things like dynamic changes and markings, and tempo changes: http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.14/Documentation/notation/creating-midi-files
- A former piano teacher of mine termed this technique "California legato"-- that is,
playing one note, then playing the next while lazily releasing the first note. This was a derogatory term, meant to chide the performer for going after easy note-to-note connections at the expense of melodic clarity. (Similar to keeping the pedal fully down through changes in harmony.)
-Jonathan
I'm not saying that I really expressed myself well in yesterday's reply... It was a bad way to put it.
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On 05/03/12 20:22, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Le 2012-03-05 à 19:58:00, Lorenzo Sutton a écrit :
It can be dangerous/misleading to extract the general rule from one single, very specific example like this, and then re-apply it to a totally different domain/example.
Yes, but then, the reasoning that you stated is not what you actually meant. You're not trying to say that it doesn't make sense to use something that is primarily a typesetting system, to do midi output. It may be because Lilypond in particular is bad at this task in particular, but you already are generalising by calling it « a midi creator » and « a typesetting system » and that a fact about the latter in general justifies a statement about the former in general.
I'm not saying that I really expressed myself well in yesterday's reply... It was a bad way to put it.
No problem, I can see what you meant. I was just trying to point out that the nuances of language in my opinion *are* important. email as a medium doesn't help because it is purely written text :) Lorenzo.
and *thus* Lorenzo thinks:
"It doesn't make much sense to use Pd as a [something-else-differnt-than-audio-creator] as it is primerily an [Audio-creation-something]
A good workman never blames his tools... But the best workman in the world won't paint a room with a screwdriver. Ultimately you do need the right tools for the job.
I was intending to write a score for a choir to actually sing, although it has to be said, the delay between writing lilypond code and seeing the score in a readable format is a huge barrier. There's a further delay between that and me sitting down at the keyboard to play the music, make variations, then go through the cycle again. Not quite a screwdriver, perhaps, but a squirrels tail?
The part were you implicitly go from (cery) specific to general and back to specific again is the weakest - in my humble opinion ;)
Lorenzo.
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From: Andrew Faraday jbturgid@hotmail.com To: lorenzofsutton@gmail.com; matju@artengine.ca; pd-list@iem.at Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [PD] [OT] Music Notation in linux
and *thus* Lorenzo thinks:
"It doesn't make much sense to use Pd as a [something-else-differnt-than-audio-creator] as it is primerily an [Audio-creation-something]
A good workman never blames his tools... But the best workman in the world won't paint a room with a screwdriver. Ultimately you do need the right tools for the job.
I was intending to write a score for a choir to actually sing, although it has to be said, the delay between writing lilypond code and seeing the score in a readable format is a huge barrier.
If you use LilypondTool it's as simple as:
- map the "|" key to run lilypond
- every time you finish a bar make sure to put a barcheck, which happens to also be "|"
Voila! When you type "|" Lilypondtool scans the input to make sure you have the correct number of beats-- if you do, Lilypond prints out the score and you see a pdf preview in Jedit. (If you don't, it still prints it out and Lilypond gives a warning telling you how many beats short you are in that measure.) -Jonathan
There's a further delay between that and me sitting down at the keyboard to play the music, make variations, then go through the cycle again. Not quite a screwdriver, perhaps, but a squirrels tail?
The part were you implicitly go from (cery) specific to general and back to specific again is the weakest - in my humble opinion ;)
Lorenzo.
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Jonathan Wilkes -
Jonghyun Kim -
Lorenzo Sutton -
Mathieu Bouchard