I will not be join to PDDP meeting tomorrow either. I will be busy
with writing the last paper for this term.
Koray.
On Apr 26, 2006, at 6:40 PM, pd-list-request@iem.at wrote:
I'll be stuck at work working on an installation for that night, so
I'm certainly out for that day.Worth keeping the discussion going, so I encourage those who can
make it to have a meeting then.....b.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
So I couldn't make the PDDP meeting yesterday, the internet was down all day here and I was sick as a dog anyhow. I hope people
didn't wait around for me.How about doing it tomorrow, Thursday April 26th at the standard
time:* 11.00 Pacific Time * 14.00 Eastern Time * 19.00 UTC * 20.00 Central EuropeanOh, I just noticed that May 2nd is posted on the PDDP page. I don't think I can make that since I'll be workshopping then.
.hc
"The arc of history bends towards justice." - Dr. Martin LutherKing, Jr.
So it sounds like Tuesday May 2nd it is. If anyone has any time to
review the tutorial patches I organized recently, I'd love feedback.
.hc
On Apr 26, 2006, at 5:54 PM, Koray Tahiroglu wrote:
I will not be join to PDDP meeting tomorrow either. I will be busy
with writing the last paper for this term.Koray.
On Apr 26, 2006, at 6:40 PM, pd-list-request@iem.at wrote:
I'll be stuck at work working on an installation for that night,
so I'm certainly out for that day.Worth keeping the discussion going, so I encourage those who can
make it to have a meeting then.....b.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
So I couldn't make the PDDP meeting yesterday, the internet was down all day here and I was sick as a dog anyhow. I hope people
didn't wait around for me.How about doing it tomorrow, Thursday April 26th at the standard
time:* 11.00 Pacific Time * 14.00 Eastern Time * 19.00 UTC * 20.00 Central EuropeanOh, I just noticed that May 2nd is posted on the PDDP page. I don't think I can make that since I'll be workshopping then.
.hc
"The arc of history bends towards justice." - Dr. Martin LutherKing, Jr.
¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido!
okedoke, I had some time to check out the tutorial patches and now i also have a few minutes to put offer some feedback.
The patches are great, they offer a lot of information for those that would like to learn about specific objects and how to implement them. They are perfect for workshops for providing to workshop members so they can all look at the same patch on seperate machines and try it out.
However, I'm now not so convinced this is a good process for a manual. I think there is not enough information in these tutorials to fully explain objects and how you implement them if there was no workshop leader to help you along. It is tricky, for example, to really be able to explain how the file menu works, or how to drag connectors between objects in a patch. This kind of thing is possible to show with screen shots but in a patch I am not sure its so easy to illustrate.
Also, some of the tutorial patches didnt load in the externals. I guess this is because I didnt have the externals loaded. This is ok for me, I can work it out, but a new user woulod be very confused by this. This could perhaps be combated by making a 'plain vanilla' manual with no info for externals but I am not sure this is what is intended with the PDDP initiative.
Also, one of the great things about patch examples are that they are editable. It is also something that could cause confusion if a user edits a manual patch and then doesn't know how to fix their mistake. They could easily end up saving the faulty patch and it would stay permanently in their manual with incorrect or confusing info.
Lastly, I think the layout possibilities are very restricted with patches. They seem 'clunky'...i am open to be proven wrong here if someone can show me a good example of a well designed tutorial patch. To me a good manual is more than just info or examples. Information is also made more acessible and readable through design. A README doc or a man page is good enough for a geek but not for your average user. They will run away screaming. A PD patch as a manual is half way between a man page and a designed manual. Its not geek chic and its not newbie friendly. As I said above, please prove me wrong on this. From what I know of PD and what I have seen so far though, I am not sure the patches lend themselves to good, readable, user friendly docs.
So for me, althoguh I wanted to be carried away with enthusiasm for making a patch based manual, I am not convinced this is the right way to do it. I think the tutorial patches have a very important role, but I am not sure this is for introducing newbies or potential PD users to the world of PD.
adam
..on Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 11:12:32PM +0200, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
So it sounds like Tuesday May 2nd it is. If anyone has any time to
review the tutorial patches I organized recently, I'd love feedback..hc
On Apr 26, 2006, at 5:54 PM, Koray Tahiroglu wrote:
I will not be join to PDDP meeting tomorrow either. I will be busy
with writing the last paper for this term.Koray.
On Apr 26, 2006, at 6:40 PM, pd-list-request@iem.at wrote:
I'll be stuck at work working on an installation for that night,
so I'm certainly out for that day.Worth keeping the discussion going, so I encourage those who can
make it to have a meeting then.....b.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
So I couldn't make the PDDP meeting yesterday, the internet was down all day here and I was sick as a dog anyhow. I hope people
didn't wait around for me.How about doing it tomorrow, Thursday April 26th at the standard
time:
- 11.00 Pacific Time
- 14.00 Eastern Time
- 19.00 UTC
- 20.00 Central European
Oh, I just noticed that May 2nd is posted on the PDDP page. I don't think I can make that since I'll be workshopping then.
.hc
"The arc of history bends towards justice." - Dr. Martin LutherKing, Jr.
?El pueblo unido jam?s ser? vencido!
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Apr 27, 2006, at 2:50 PM, adam wrote:
okedoke, I had some time to check out the tutorial patches and now i also have a few minutes to put offer some feedback.
The patches are great, they offer a lot of information for those that would like to learn about specific objects and how to implement
them. They are perfect for workshops for providing to workshop members so they
can all look at the same patch on seperate machines and try it out.However, I'm now not so convinced this is a good process for a
manual. I think there is not enough information in these tutorials to fully
explain objects and how you implement them if there was no workshop leader
to help you along. It is tricky, for example, to really be able to explain
how the file menu works, or how to drag connectors between objects in a patch. This kind of thing is possible to show with screen shots but in a
patch I am not sure its so easy to illustrate.
These tutorials need to be more fine-grained, that's for sure. This
is just a start. As for screenshots, you can embed images in a patch.
Also, some of the tutorial patches didnt load in the externals. I
guess this is because I didnt have the externals loaded. This is ok
for me, I can work it out, but a new user woulod be very confused by this. This could perhaps
be combated by making a 'plain vanilla' manual with no info for
externals but I am not sure this is what is intended with the PDDP initiative.
The tutorials are intended to work with Pd-extended so we don't have
to be crippled by using a tiny subset of available objects. But
there are still bugs. If you are using Pd-extended, all objects
should be found. Please submit a bug report if they are not.
Also, one of the great things about patch examples are that they are editable. It is also something that could cause confusion if a user
edits a manual patch and then doesn't know how to fix their mistake. They
could easily end up saving the faulty patch and it would stay permanently in their manual with incorrect or confusing info.
In Pd-extended, all of the reference material is read-only by
default. If some patches are not, that's a bug.
Lastly, I think the layout possibilities are very restricted with
patches. They seem 'clunky'...i am open to be proven wrong here if
someone can show me a good example of a well designed tutorial patch. To me a good manual is
more than just info or examples. Information is also made more
acessible and readable through design. A README doc or a man page is good enough for a geek but
not for your average user. They will run away screaming. A PD patch
as a manual is half way between a man page and a designed manual. Its not geek chic and its
not newbie friendly. As I said above, please prove me wrong on
this. From what I know of PD and what I have seen so far though, I am not sure the patches lend
themselves to good, readable, user friendly docs.So for me, althoguh I wanted to be carried away with enthusiasm for
making a patch based manual, I am not convinced this is the right
way to do it. I think the tutorial patches have a very important role, but I am not sure this
is for introducing newbies or potential PD users to the world of PD.
please check out the templates sketches here. It would be great if
you want to contribute some sketches of templates for about,
tutorials, etc. The help template is pretty much finalized.
.hc
..on Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 11:12:32PM +0200, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
So it sounds like Tuesday May 2nd it is. If anyone has any time to review the tutorial patches I organized recently, I'd love feedback.
.hc
On Apr 26, 2006, at 5:54 PM, Koray Tahiroglu wrote:
I will not be join to PDDP meeting tomorrow either. I will be busy with writing the last paper for this term.
Koray.
On Apr 26, 2006, at 6:40 PM, pd-list-request@iem.at wrote:
I'll be stuck at work working on an installation for that night, so I'm certainly out for that day.
Worth keeping the discussion going, so I encourage those who can make it to have a meeting then...
..b.
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
So I couldn't make the PDDP meeting yesterday, the internet was
down all day here and I was sick as a dog anyhow. I hope people didn't wait around for me.How about doing it tomorrow, Thursday April 26th at the standard time:
- 11.00 Pacific Time
- 14.00 Eastern Time
- 19.00 UTC
- 20.00 Central European
Oh, I just noticed that May 2nd is posted on the PDDP page. I
don't think I can make that since I'll be workshopping then..hc
__ ____ ____
"The arc of history bends towards justice." - Dr. Martin LutherKing, Jr.
?El pueblo unido jam?s ser? vencido!
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list
--
Adam Hyde ~/.nl
selected projects http://www.xs4all.nl/~adam
the streaming suitcase http://www.streamingsuitcase.com
r a d i o q u a l i a http://www.radioqualia.net
Free as in 'media' email : adam@xs4all.nl mobile : + 31 6 186 75 356 (Netherlands mobile)
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are
deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from
scarcity."
-John Gilmore
This kind of thing is possible to show with screen shots but in a
patch I am not sure its so easy to illustrate.These tutorials need to be more fine-grained, that's for sure.
This is just a start. As for screenshots, you can embed images in
a patch.
how do you embed an image in a patch? (tia)
Yes, i'm also curious as to how this works!
~Kyle
On 4/27/06, Mark Polishook polishook@optonline.net wrote:
This kind of thing is possible to show with screen shots but in a patch I am not sure its so easy to illustrate.
These tutorials need to be more fine-grained, that's for sure. This is just a start. As for screenshots, you can embed images in a patch.
how do you embed an image in a patch? (tia)
http://theradioproject.com http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com
(((())))(()()((((((((()())))()(((((((())()()())()))) (())))))(()))))))))))))(((((((((((()()))))))))((()))) ))(((((((((((())))())))))))))))))))__________ _____())))))(((((((((((((()))))))))))_______ ((((((())))))))))))((((((((000)))oOOOOOO
something with [toxy] I imagine.
d.
Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
Yes, i'm also curious as to how this works!
~Kyle
On 4/27/06, Mark Polishook polishook@optonline.net wrote:
This kind of thing is possible to show with screen shots but in a patch I am not sure its so easy to illustrate.
These tutorials need to be more fine-grained, that's for sure. This is just a start. As for screenshots, you can embed images in a patch.
how do you embed an image in a patch? (tia)
[image] from ggee still works great... Cyrille
derek holzer a écrit :
something with [toxy] I imagine.
d.
Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
Yes, i'm also curious as to how this works!
~Kyle
On 4/27/06, Mark Polishook polishook@optonline.net wrote:
This kind of thing is possible to show with screen shots but in a patch I am not sure its so easy to illustrate.
These tutorials need to be more fine-grained, that's for sure. This is just a start. As for screenshots, you can embed images in a patch.
how do you embed an image in a patch? (tia)
Is there any way to get better font handling? that would also improve the readability a lot.
adam
Adam Hyde ~/.nl
selected projects http://www.xs4all.nl/~adam
the streaming suitcase http://www.streamingsuitcase.com
r a d i o q u a l i a http://www.radioqualia.net
Free as in 'media' email : adam@xs4all.nl mobile : + 31 6 186 75 356 (Netherlands mobile)
On Sun, 30 Apr 2006, adam wrote:
Is there any way to get better font handling? that would also improve the readability a lot.
Someone should run this program (using "wish") on each supported OS:
pack [text .log] -expand 1 -fill both foreach face {Courier Helvetica Sans} { foreach n {8 10 12 14} { set font [list $face -$n] .log insert end "$font: [font metrics $font]\n" for {set i 65} {$i < 123} {incr i} { set t [format %c $i] .log insert end [format "%s:%-2d " $t [font measure $font $t]] if {($i&31)==13} {.log insert end "\n"} if {($i&31)==26} {.log insert end "\n"; set i [expr $i+6]} } } }
_ _ __ ___ _____ ________ _____________ _____________________ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada
The [comment] object has better fonts, but doesn't seem to work on
Windows at the moment.
.hc
On Apr 30, 2006, at 12:24 PM, adam wrote:
Is there any way to get better font handling? that would also
improve the readability a lot.adam
Adam Hyde ~/.nl
selected projects http://www.xs4all.nl/~adam
the streaming suitcase http://www.streamingsuitcase.com
r a d i o q u a l i a http://www.radioqualia.net
Free as in 'media' email : adam@xs4all.nl mobile : + 31 6 186 75 356 (Netherlands mobile)
"Terrorism is not an enemy. It cannot be defeated. It's a tactic.
It's about as sensible to say we declare war on night attacks and
expect we're going to win that war. We're not going to win the war
on terrorism."
- retired U.S. Army general,
William Odom
Perhaps it might be worth considering trying another template option with some images and fonts?
adam
..on Mon, May 01, 2006 at 07:55:53AM +0200, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
The [comment] object has better fonts, but doesn't seem to work on
Windows at the moment..hc
On Apr 30, 2006, at 12:24 PM, adam wrote:
Is there any way to get better font handling? that would also
improve the readability a lot.adam
Adam Hyde ~/.nl
selected projects http://www.xs4all.nl/~adam
the streaming suitcase http://www.streamingsuitcase.com
r a d i o q u a l i a http://www.radioqualia.net
Free as in 'media' email : adam@xs4all.nl mobile : + 31 6 186 75 356 (Netherlands mobile)
"Terrorism is not an enemy. It cannot be defeated. It's a tactic.
It's about as sensible to say we declare war on night attacks and
expect we're going to win that war. We're not going to win the war
on terrorism." - retired U.S. Army general,
William Odom
Sure, please submit one!
.hc
On May 1, 2006, at 7:59 AM, adam wrote:
Perhaps it might be worth considering trying another template
option with some images and fonts?adam
..on Mon, May 01, 2006 at 07:55:53AM +0200, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
The [comment] object has better fonts, but doesn't seem to work on Windows at the moment.
.hc
On Apr 30, 2006, at 12:24 PM, adam wrote:
Is there any way to get better font handling? that would also improve the readability a lot.
adam
Adam Hyde ~/.nl
selected projects http://www.xs4all.nl/~adam
the streaming suitcase http://www.streamingsuitcase.com
r a d i o q u a l i a http://www.radioqualia.net
Free as in 'media' email : adam@xs4all.nl mobile : + 31 6 186 75 356 (Netherlands mobile)
"Terrorism is not an enemy. It cannot be defeated. It's a tactic. It's about as sensible to say we declare war on night attacks and expect we're going to win that war. We're not going to win the war on terrorism." - retired U.S. Army general, William Odom
--
Adam Hyde ~/.nl
selected projects http://www.xs4all.nl/~adam
the streaming suitcase http://www.streamingsuitcase.com
r a d i o q u a l i a http://www.radioqualia.net
Free as in 'media' email : adam@xs4all.nl mobile : + 31 6 186 75 356 (Netherlands mobile)
http://at.or.at/hans/
-
adam -
cyrille henry -
derek holzer -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Koray Tahiroglu -
Kyle Klipowicz -
Mark Polishook -
Mathieu Bouchard