Hello guys,
Id just like to add to the discussion how I enjoy the supercollider help system. Ofcourse it taeks full advantage of the fact that sc is text coded and has a help system that was far easier to implemnt then something similar would be in pd. However, it might be worht having a look at it. For those that havent tried SC yet; its help file means that you can select any object or code and press help (similar to pd's right click help on windows) but the beauty is the structure, if a certain object or line of code doesn't have a help file you get thrown to the main help file which directs you to a lot of stuff. Theres tutorials or basic object help etc etc. Navigating it is very easy. Downside is that it isnt very easy to search it, the same problem that pd has ofcourse. I like the idea of having a html server inside pd gui. Im sure it wouldn't be too hard to implemnt a powerfull search engine in it that way. If wanted stuff like Millers book could even be included.
Just to give the group another incentive, the feedback I get from a lot of newbies to coding, the biggest group ofnew users that are most likely to get in contact with pd etc as far as I can tell, say that some of the areas in which pd can improve greatly for them is documentation. Ive also been thinking of porting the max & msp tutorials to pd, however, I think that id run into copyright issues doing that, so perhaps we c/Ian do a rewrite that wouldn't have tha tproblem? Or am I suggesting something that has allready been started. Ofcourse there's millers book but its pretty math heavy for a lot of people that don't know how to look behind that.
Cheers Anton Ps when the time comes that a standard has been chosen id be glad to help cross out some objects on the list to create new documentation for.
On Apr 30, 2005, at 6:39 PM, Thomas Grill wrote:
Am 30.04.2005 um 22:58 schrieb Anton Woldhek:
Hello guys,
May indeed be true, but i try to repress the sad possibility. I idealistically hope the PD community might somehow reflect the real
world.
Well, I can only speak for American usage, but when you address a large
group of people as "guys", it is generally assumed to be
gender-neutral. Women will often it use it that way also.
.hc
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. - Eldridge Cleaver
May indeed be true, but i try to repress the sad possibility. I idealistically hope the PD community might somehow reflect the real world.
Well, I can only speak for American usage, but when you address a large group of people as "guys", it is generally assumed to be gender-neutral. Women will often it use it that way also.
I'm sorry, will update my command of English and my dictionaries... maybe the latter have that strange perspective.
Thomas
On Apr 30, 2005, at 7:49 PM, Thomas Grill wrote:
May indeed be true, but i try to repress the sad possibility. I idealistically hope the PD community might somehow reflect the
real world.Well, I can only speak for American usage, but when you address a
large group of people as "guys", it is generally assumed to be
gender-neutral. Women will often it use it that way also.I'm sorry, will update my command of English and my dictionaries...
maybe the latter have that strange perspective.
I am not talking definitions here, but idiomatic usage, so don't change
the dictionaries just yet ;). But I think just about everyone here
shares your desire for a more diverse Pd community, me included.
.hc
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an
idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps
it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the
possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of
it."
- Thomas Jefferson
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Apr 30, 2005, at 6:39 PM, Thomas Grill wrote:
Am 30.04.2005 um 22:58 schrieb Anton Woldhek: May indeed be true, but i try to repress the sad possibility. I idealistically hope the PD community might somehow reflect the real world.
Well, I can only speak for American usage, but when you address a large group of people as "guys", it is generally assumed to be gender-neutral. Women will often it use it that way also.
one word: paranoia.
i mean like this:
http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2003-11/015726.html http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2003-11/015729.html
and here's a semi-related bonus pic:
http://tornandfrayed.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/barbiemath.gif
BTW, I'd bet that among the people who are reading us right now, there is a bigger % of women than the % of male undergrads of most psychology departments.
,-o---------o---------o---------o-. ,---. |
| The Diagram is the Program (TM) | | ,-o-------------o--------------o-.
-o--------------o--------------o-' | | Mathieu Bouchard (Montréal QC) | | téléphone: +1.514.383.3801---' `-o-- http://artengine.ca/matju -'
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
On Apr 30, 2005, at 6:39 PM, Thomas Grill wrote:
Am 30.04.2005 um 22:58 schrieb Anton Woldhek:
Hello guys,
May indeed be true, but i try to repress the sad possibility. I idealistically hope the PD community might somehow reflect the real
world.Well, I can only speak for American usage, but when you address a large
group of people as "guys", it is generally assumed to be
gender-neutral. Women will often it use it that way also.
I happen to like "y'all" as a gender-neutral form of adress myself. Even more American than "guys", however, and I doubt that "y'all" has made it into "standard Euro-English" usage yet...
d.
derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ---Oblique Strategy # 191: "You don't have to be ashamed of using your own ideas"
Hallo, Thomas Grill hat gesagt: // Thomas Grill wrote:
Am 30.04.2005 um 22:58 schrieb Anton Woldhek:
Hello guys,
May indeed be true, but i try to repress the sad possibility. I idealistically hope the PD community might somehow reflect the real world.
At least it starts with "Hello". Most of the mails on this list don't include a greeting at all. Call me old-fashioned but I like greetings.
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
_ __latest track: "scans" _ http://footils.org/cms/show/41
On May 1, 2005, at 5:54 AM, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo, Thomas Grill hat gesagt: // Thomas Grill wrote:
Am 30.04.2005 um 22:58 schrieb Anton Woldhek:
Hello guys,
May indeed be true, but i try to repress the sad possibility. I idealistically hope the PD community might somehow reflect the real world.
At least it starts with "Hello". Most of the mails on this list don't include a greeting at all. Call me old-fashioned but I like greetings.
There is no more time for greetings, they are obsolete. I don't even
have time to sign my whole name, let alone say it. ;)
.hc
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. - Eldridge Cleaver
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
There is no more time for greetings, they are obsolete. I don't even
have time to sign my whole name, let alone say it. ;)
Well, of course I don't type the "Hallo" each time. All of you get my automated greetings. Most decent email software allows to configure this like the signature, too. But it's not really important, I don't feel very hurt if I'm not greeted on m-lists. ;)
Ciao
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
_ __latest track: "scans" _ http://footils.org/cms/show/41
On Sun, May 01, 2005 at 12:39:56AM +0200, Thomas Grill wrote:
Am 30.04.2005 um 22:58 schrieb Anton Woldhek:
Hello guys,
May indeed be true, but i try to repress the sad possibility. I idealistically hope the PD community might somehow reflect the real world.
If anyone's interested, half of a laptop quartet I'm doing this semester is made up of women. (They're using Max, though) Even though they're not PD users, it's still pretty encouraging. (Less encouraging, however, is that they're the only two women in the electronic music department here at Oberlin, as far as I know)
-spencer
On Sun, 1 May 2005, Spencer Russell wrote:
On Sun, May 01, 2005 at 12:39:56AM +0200, Thomas Grill wrote:
Am 30.04.2005 um 22:58 schrieb Anton Woldhek:
Hello guys,
May indeed be true, but i try to repress the sad possibility. I idealistically hope the PD community might somehow reflect the real world.
If anyone's interested, half of a laptop quartet I'm doing this semester is made up of women. (They're using Max, though) Even though they're not PD users, it's still pretty encouraging. (Less encouraging, however, is that they're the only two women in the electronic music department here at Oberlin, as far as I know)
Also, of the artists registered to the PureData workshop of Vidéographe (an artist centre in Montréal), most are women. I mean, in yesterday's meeting, there were 8 women and 7 men, and several men were actually instructors.
,-o---------o---------o---------o-. ,---. |
| The Diagram is the Program (TM) | | ,-o-------------o--------------o-.
-o--------------o--------------o-' | | Mathieu Bouchard (Montréal QC) | | téléphone: +1.514.383.3801---' `-o-- http://artengine.ca/matju -'
Hi Anton,
For the SC help, The main thing I see you after here is that you can get help no matter where you are. I can see this fitting into PD where the popup menu on objects gives you the choice between help for that particular object, help in an all_about patch that includes this object, or the start of a tutorial on using that object... I don't know where the best place for this is, but the main idea of getting help is currently being tied to the help menu, rather than being tied to the patcher and objects therein.
In all the 15 workshops I have taught it is completely clear that the documentation is the main difficulty students have with learning PD.
should we be talking about this on pd-dev or pd-list?!?!
B>
Anton Woldhek wrote:
Hello guys,
Id just like to add to the discussion how I enjoy the supercollider help system. Ofcourse it taeks full advantage of the fact that sc is text coded and has a help system that was far easier to implemnt then something similar would be in pd. However, it might be worht having a look at it. For those that havent tried SC yet; its help file means that you can select any object or code and press help (similar to pd's right click help on windows) but the beauty is the structure, if a certain object or line of code doesn't have a help file you get thrown to the main help file which directs you to a lot of stuff. Theres tutorials or basic object help etc etc. Navigating it is very easy. Downside is that it isnt very easy to search it, the same problem that pd has ofcourse. I like the idea of having a html server inside pd gui. Im sure it wouldn't be too hard to implemnt a powerfull search engine in it that way. If wanted stuff like Millers book could even be included.
Just to give the group another incentive, the feedback I get from a lot of newbies to coding, the biggest group ofnew users that are most likely to get in contact with pd etc as far as I can tell, say that some of the areas in which pd can improve greatly for them is documentation. Ive also been thinking of porting the max & msp tutorials to pd, however, I think that id run into copyright issues doing that, so perhaps we c/Ian do a rewrite that wouldn't have tha tproblem? Or am I suggesting something that has allready been started. Ofcourse there's millers book but its pretty math heavy for a lot of people that don't know how to look behind that.
Cheers Anton Ps when the time comes that a standard has been chosen id be glad to help cross out some objects on the list to create new documentation for.
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
I think the "Help" menu item should always bring up the reference patch
for that object. Then the reference patch will link to any relevant
example patches and all_about_ patches.
.hc
On May 4, 2005, at 3:31 PM, B. Bogart wrote:
Hi Anton,
For the SC help, The main thing I see you after here is that you can
get help no matter where you are. I can see this fitting into PD where the popup menu on objects gives you the choice between help for that particular object, help in an all_about patch that includes this
object, or the start of a tutorial on using that object... I don't know where the best place for this is, but the main idea of getting help is currently being tied to the help menu, rather than being tied to the patcher and objects therein.In all the 15 workshops I have taught it is completely clear that the documentation is the main difficulty students have with learning PD.
should we be talking about this on pd-dev or pd-list?!?!
B>
Anton Woldhek wrote:
Hello guys,
Id just like to add to the discussion how I enjoy the supercollider
help system. Ofcourse it taeks full advantage of the fact that sc is text
coded and has a help system that was far easier to implemnt then something
similar would be in pd. However, it might be worht having a look at it. For those that havent tried SC yet; its help file means that you can
select any object or code and press help (similar to pd's right click help on windows) but the beauty is the structure, if a certain object or
line of code doesn't have a help file you get thrown to the main help file
which directs you to a lot of stuff. Theres tutorials or basic object help
etc etc. Navigating it is very easy. Downside is that it isnt very easy to search it, the same problem that pd has ofcourse. I like the idea of having a html server inside pd gui. Im sure it
wouldn't be too hard to implemnt a powerfull search engine in it that way. If
wanted stuff like Millers book could even be included.Just to give the group another incentive, the feedback I get from a
lot of newbies to coding, the biggest group ofnew users that are most likely
to get in contact with pd etc as far as I can tell, say that some of the
areas in which pd can improve greatly for them is documentation. Ive also been thinking of porting the max & msp tutorials to pd,
however, I think that id run into copyright issues doing that, so perhaps we
c/Ian do a rewrite that wouldn't have tha tproblem? Or am I suggesting something
that has allready been started. Ofcourse there's millers book but its
pretty math heavy for a lot of people that don't know how to look behind that.Cheers Anton Ps when the time comes that a standard has been chosen id be glad to
help cross out some objects on the list to create new documentation for.
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Using ReBirth is like trying to play an 808 with a long stick. -David Zicarelli
On Wed, 4 May 2005, B. Bogart wrote:
should we be talking about this on pd-dev or pd-list?!?!
I don't know, I told my "documentation team" :-) to subscribe to pd-dev so that they could follow about PDDP, but I don't recall whether they're on pd-list.
It seems that if one wants to follow what s/he wants about pd, s/he has to be subscribed to all lists, because it's rarely really clear which list a discussion should be on; and given some people don't subscribe to all lists, often posters will compensate by crossposting, and so there isn't that much of a benefit of having eight separate m-l's.
I'm thinking of pd-list, pd-dev, pd-announce, pd-ot, pdweb, gem-dev, pf-list, gridflow-dev.
What do you think?
(should I crosspost this mail to pd-dev ? just kidding)
,-o---------o---------o---------o-. ,---. irc.freenode.net #dataflow |
| The Diagram is the Program (TM) | | ,-o-------------o--------------o-.
-o--------------o--------------o-' | | Mathieu Bouchard (Montréal QC) | | téléphone: +1.514.383.3801---' `-o-- http://artengine.ca/matju -'
I'm thinking of pd-list, pd-dev, pd-announce, pd-ot, pdweb, gem-dev, pf-list, gridflow-dev.
Perhaps a more effective solution would be to add [ot] [dev] [gem] [gridflow] to the subject ourselves? That way we could have [doc] talk without a new mailinglist ;)
Cheers Anton
-
Anton Woldhek -
B. Bogart -
derek holzer -
Frank Barknecht -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Mathieu Bouchard -
Spencer Russell -
Thomas Grill