On Oct 22, 2013, at 1:07 PM, pd-list-request@iem.at wrote:
From: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [PD] Building externals on OSX Date: October 22, 2013 1:14:41 PM EDT To: pd-list@iem.at
On 10/21/2013 09:38 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
Errr. That's not so easy. You need the 10.5 SDK which you can only get with a *really* old version of Xcode which you probably can't install on anything newer than OSX 10.6. It's possible to put older SDK's themselves into the "right place" but, for something as old as the 10.5 SDK, it may not even work anymore. The only reliabel way to use an old machine with 10.5 or 10.6 and an old version of Xcode, probably Xcode 3.something.
IMHO, at this point, it's best to drop support for PPC for new versions of pd. The *vast vast vast* majority of OSX users have moved on at this point.
Just to make sure I understand: if someone has an old PPC Mac, they cannot run stuff compiled for i386 or x86_64. There is no compatibility-mode or anything they can use to run the software. Is this correct?
Yes. It's a different instruction set and Rosetta, the PCC compatibility layer, won't run an OSX 10.7+.
Also, do you have any references for the claim that the vast majority of OSX users have moved away from PPC?
http://update.omnigroup.com/ (Hardware / CPU type): Intel 97.8% PPC 2.2%
https://www.adium.im/sparkle/ (CPU type): Intel 97.83% PPC 2.71%
I find Jobs' claim that Apple doesn't ship junk to generally be true, and combined with their development model the unfortunate result would seem to be that poor people still using their once sleek and sexy devices are ignored along with their now ugly, unprofitable devices.
Well, those "sleek and sexy" PPC devices were last made & sold in 2005, so it's not a surprise the vast majority of people using OSX have Intel machines mainly because software developers (& the OS) have moved on to 32 bit and now 64 bit intel years ago.
Your political bias notwithstanding (I say use what works for you), I have a 4 year old Apple laptop that still does everything I need with the latest version of OSX and I plan to upgrade to OSX Mavericks when it comes out. That's pretty good, as I had a job when I bought it and I am currently an unemployed artist working on his thesis right now, so it's good this "sleek and sexy device" is not yet an "ugly, unprofitable" one. As with anything, not everyone buys the newest one every iteration and I can say, without any hardware issues whatsoever so far, I got what I paid for.
In any case, I've long thought of helping with the OSX compatibility for Pd (updating GEM to Cocoa/64 bit for instance) but I honestly don't have the time or support right now. Maybe next spring I can do a "reverse kickstarter"?
Dan Wilcox @danomatika danomatika.com robotcowboy.com
On 10/22/2013 02:52 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
On Oct 22, 2013, at 1:07 PM, pd-list-request@iem.at mailto:pd-list-request@iem.at wrote:
*From:*Jonathan Wilkes <jancsika@yahoo.com mailto:jancsika@yahoo.com> *Subject:**Re: [PD] Building externals on OSX* *Date:*October 22, 2013 1:14:41 PM EDT *To:*pd-list@iem.at mailto:pd-list@iem.at
On 10/21/2013 09:38 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
Errr. That's not so easy. You need the 10.5 SDK which you can only get with a *really* old version of Xcode which you probably can't install on anything newer than OSX 10.6. It's possible to put older SDK's themselves into the "right place" but, for something as old as the 10.5 SDK, it may not even work anymore. The only reliabel way to use an old machine with 10.5 or 10.6 and an old version of Xcode, probably Xcode 3.something.
IMHO, at this point, it's best to drop support for PPC for new versions of pd. The *vast vast vast* majority of OSX users have moved on at this point.
Just to make sure I understand: if someone has an old PPC Mac, they cannot run stuff compiled for i386 or x86_64. There is no compatibility-mode or anything they can use to run the software. Is this correct?
Yes. It's a different instruction set and Rosetta, the PCC compatibility layer, won't run an OSX 10.7+.
Well, if it's an enormous amount of trouble to continue supporting it then I can see dropping it.
Also, do you have any references for the claim that the vast majority of OSX users have moved away from PPC?
http://update.omnigroup.com/ (Hardware / CPU type): Intel 97.8% PPC 2.2%
https://www.adium.im/sparkle/ (CPU type): Intel 97.83% PPC 2.71%
Thanks. Those are low numbers, but I'd imagine the number of PPC users is still fairly high: http://www.statisticbrain.com/apple-computer-company-statistics/
I find Jobs' claim that Apple doesn't ship junk to generally be true, and combined with their development model the unfortunate result would seem to be that poor people still using their once sleek and sexy devices are ignored along with their now ugly, unprofitable devices.
Well, those "sleek and sexy" PPC devices were last made & sold in 2005, so it's not a surprise the vast majority of people using OSX have Intel machines mainly because software developers (& the OS) have moved on to 32 bit and now 64 bit intel years ago.
Debian supports PPC, no? Anyone know how it does on the old machines?
I suppose since Pd is in the repos one could say it still supports PPC. :)
Your political bias notwithstanding (I say use what works for you),
Well, I'd call it a political stance. And where it seemed quirky and deeply personal when I first adopted it, it now seems simply to be a restatement of the scientific method for computer security, at a time when there have been revelations that show our computers really need to be as secure as possible against attacks.
I'd also point out that yours is a political stance. While I understand it, I must disagree with it because in terms of security it is much more difficult to use the scientific method to check whether the specs actually fit the implementation. In some cases on proprietary OSes neither are known so you're forced to reverse engineer the software, and for complex systems that's too time consuming and expensive to do.
I have a 4 year old Apple laptop that still does everything I need with the latest version of OSX and I plan to upgrade to OSX Mavericks when it comes out. That's pretty good, as I had a job when I bought it and I am currently an unemployed artist working on his thesis right now, so it's good this "sleek and sexy device" is not yet an "ugly, unprofitable" one. As with anything, not everyone buys the newest one every iteration and I can say, without any hardware issues whatsoever so far, I got what I paid for.
In any case, I've long thought of helping with the OSX compatibility for Pd (updating GEM to Cocoa/64 bit for instance) but I honestly don't have the time or support right now. Maybe next spring I can do a "reverse kickstarter"?
It's probably a much better idea to just do a "Kickstarter". :)
Best, Jonathan
Dan Wilcox @danomatika danomatika.com http://danomatika.com robotcowboy.com http://robotcowboy.com
On 23/10/13 05:12, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
Debian supports PPC, no? Anyone know how it does on the old machines? I suppose since Pd is in the repos one could say it still supports PPC. :)
I don't think their main ppc target is Apples now, and the Open Firmware boot system is very old, I think you need to go back a few versions to get a debian installer that still does that, then maybe you can upgrade from there, but I imagine newer ppc stuff won't be using altivec, and without altivec and the quicktime stuff optimised for it they are not so useful, really it is probably much more sensible to run OSX 10.4.9 on them and a pd that runs on that. I have an old ppc mac-mini still running from the days I used OSX, it is running an old debian. I never bought any intel macs, but certainly it took years before the intel mac-minis caught up to the speed of the G4 ones in terms of editing and playing video. Back in early Final Cut Pro days the ppc apples could run video editing much better than anything else even close to the price, but that is ancient history now and Apple mostly sells hand-held gadgets now.
Simon
On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:52 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
On Oct 22, 2013, at 1:07 PM, pd-list-request@iem.at wrote:
From: Jonathan Wilkes jancsika@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [PD] Building externals on OSX Date: October 22, 2013 1:14:41 PM EDT To: pd-list@iem.at
On 10/21/2013 09:38 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
Errr. That's not so easy. You need the 10.5 SDK which you can only get with a *really* old version of Xcode which you probably can't install on anything newer than OSX 10.6. It's possible to put older SDK's themselves into the "right place" but, for something as old as the 10.5 SDK, it may not even work anymore. The only reliabel way to use an old machine with 10.5 or 10.6 and an old version of Xcode, probably Xcode 3.something.
IMHO, at this point, it's best to drop support for PPC for new versions of pd. The *vast vast vast* majority of OSX users have moved on at this point.
Just to make sure I understand: if someone has an old PPC Mac, they cannot run stuff compiled for i386 or x86_64. There is no compatibility-mode or anything they can use to run the software. Is this correct?
Yes. It's a different instruction set and Rosetta, the PCC compatibility layer, won't run an OSX 10.7+.
Also, do you have any references for the claim that the vast majority of OSX users have moved away from PPC?
http://update.omnigroup.com/ (Hardware / CPU type): Intel 97.8% PPC 2.2%
https://www.adium.im/sparkle/ (CPU type): Intel 97.83% PPC 2.71%
I find Jobs' claim that Apple doesn't ship junk to generally be true, and combined with their development model the unfortunate result would seem to be that poor people still using their once sleek and sexy devices are ignored along with their now ugly, unprofitable devices.
Well, those "sleek and sexy" PPC devices were last made & sold in 2005, so it's not a surprise the vast majority of people using OSX have Intel machines mainly because software developers (& the OS) have moved on to 32 bit and now 64 bit intel years ago.
Your political bias notwithstanding (I say use what works for you), I have a 4 year old Apple laptop that still does everything I need with the latest version of OSX and I plan to upgrade to OSX Mavericks when it comes out. That's pretty good, as I had a job when I bought it and I am currently an unemployed artist working on his thesis right now, so it's good this "sleek and sexy device" is not yet an "ugly, unprofitable" one. As with anything, not everyone buys the newest one every iteration and I can say, without any hardware issues whatsoever so far, I got what I paid for.
In any case, I've long thought of helping with the OSX compatibility for Pd (updating GEM to Cocoa/64 bit for instance) but I honestly don't have the time or support right now. Maybe next spring I can do a "reverse kickstarter"?
Pd could definitely use help on Mac OS X. Especially since I've switched to Linux Mint as my desktop OS.
.hc
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Dan Wilcox -
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Jonathan Wilkes -
Simon Wise