New to PD and a Mac OS X user; browsed the pd-list-mailarchive and found out that other users had have the same problem (in June): 'ALT'-shortcuts (for putting bangs, toggles, etc.) do not work.
Is that problem solved in the meantime? Has it something to do with the Tcl/Tk-Framwork? Other ideas?
rainer.
It has to do with the way that the keys are mapped in Pd. The Tcl/Tk
framework fully supports all of the keys.
Reworking the menus and key commands is relatively high on my todo
list, but it'll probably be a couple months before I have time to get
to it. Hopefully someone else will get to it before me...
.hc
On Nov 1, 2004, at 2:39 PM, rainer kohlberger wrote:
New to PD and a Mac OS X user; browsed the pd-list-mailarchive and found out that other users had
have the same problem (in June): 'ALT'-shortcuts (for putting bangs, toggles, etc.) do not work.Is that problem solved in the meantime? Has it something to do with the Tcl/Tk-Framwork? Other ideas?
rainer.
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an
idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps
it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the
possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of
it."
- Thomas Jefferson
I just remembered, the latest version of Tcl/Tk, 8.4.7, addresses the
wierdness of the Alt key, so it should be much easier to use the Alt
key on Darwin/MacOS X with Tcl/Tk 8.4.7
.hc
On Nov 1, 2004, at 3:09 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
It has to do with the way that the keys are mapped in Pd. The Tcl/Tk
framework fully supports all of the keys.Reworking the menus and key commands is relatively high on my todo
list, but it'll probably be a couple months before I have time to get
to it. Hopefully someone else will get to it before me....hc
On Nov 1, 2004, at 2:39 PM, rainer kohlberger wrote:
New to PD and a Mac OS X user; browsed the pd-list-mailarchive and found out that other users had
have the same problem (in June): 'ALT'-shortcuts (for putting bangs, toggles, etc.) do not work.Is that problem solved in the meantime? Has it something to do with the Tcl/Tk-Framwork? Other ideas?
rainer.
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an
idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps
it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into
the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself
of it."- Thomas Jefferson
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are
deliberately throwing it
away to benefit those who profit from scarcity."
-John Gilmore
There is no way to peace, peace is the way.
-A.J. Muste
Hi all,
Should Pd be using Alt-shortcuts at all, if that prevents people in Finland (and doubtless other places as well) from getting to characters that require the alt key to type? Maybe I should move everything over to "control" (Windoze/Linux) and "command" (Apple).
Opinions?
cheers Miller
On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 04:05:13PM -0500, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I just remembered, the latest version of Tcl/Tk, 8.4.7, addresses the
wierdness of the Alt key, so it should be much easier to use the Alt
key on Darwin/MacOS X with Tcl/Tk 8.4.7.hc
On Nov 1, 2004, at 3:09 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
It has to do with the way that the keys are mapped in Pd. The Tcl/Tk
framework fully supports all of the keys.Reworking the menus and key commands is relatively high on my todo
list, but it'll probably be a couple months before I have time to get
to it. Hopefully someone else will get to it before me....hc
On Nov 1, 2004, at 2:39 PM, rainer kohlberger wrote:
New to PD and a Mac OS X user; browsed the pd-list-mailarchive and found out that other users had
have the same problem (in June): 'ALT'-shortcuts (for putting bangs, toggles, etc.) do not work.Is that problem solved in the meantime? Has it something to do with the Tcl/Tk-Framwork? Other ideas?
rainer.
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an
idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps
it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into
the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself
of it."- Thomas Jefferson
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are
deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity." -John Gilmore
There is no way to peace, peace is the way. -A.J. Muste
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Miller Puckette wrote:
Should Pd be using Alt-shortcuts at all, if that prevents people in Finland (and doubtless other places as well) from getting to characters that require the alt key to type? Maybe I should move everything over to "control" (Windoze/Linux) and "command" (Apple).
On my keyboard (of the "cf" type: French Canadian), AltCar (aka AltGr) is a different modifier than the regular Alt.
Afair, it's the same on QWERTZ "kezboards".
Mathieu Bouchard -=- Montréal QC Canada -=- http://artengine.ca/matju
Well, my PC keyboard has only one "alt" (which, in linux, does not seem to bring up extra characters)... and I think the Macintosh is the same. Also, I think it's against all the Macintosh rules to use "alt" for a key accelerator anyway.
I don't know in Windows what Alt keys do, but I think there too they select alternate characters. If this is true, it's probably best to stop using "alt" accelerators, at least on Mac and Windows, although perhaps they could stay as they are on linux.
I think I have to just find "control" keys for making GUIs...
cheers Miller
On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 07:49:11PM -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Miller Puckette wrote:
Should Pd be using Alt-shortcuts at all, if that prevents people in Finland (and doubtless other places as well) from getting to characters that require the alt key to type? Maybe I should move everything over to "control" (Windoze/Linux) and "command" (Apple).
On my keyboard (of the "cf" type: French Canadian), AltCar (aka AltGr) is a different modifier than the regular Alt.
Afair, it's the same on QWERTZ "kezboards".
Mathieu Bouchard -=- Montréal QC Canada -=- http://artengine.ca/matju
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Miller Puckette wrote:
Well, my PC keyboard has only one "alt" (which, in linux, does not seem to bring up extra characters)...
I think that qualifies you to park in the handicapped space... at least in Canada anyway...
and I think the Macintosh is the same.
My impression is that the naming is different. The Windows Alt is apparently equivalent to the MacOS Command, whereas the Windows AltGr is the equivalent of the MacOS Alt.
Linux does it the same, except that there may be a difference between the Alt key and the Meta key. (here I map Meta to the "Windows" keys)
Also, I think it's against all the Macintosh rules to use "alt" for a key accelerator anyway.
Just like it's against all the Windows rules (written or not) to do so with "AltGr".
I don't know in Windows what Alt keys do, but I think there too they select alternate characters.
They select menus. The alternate characters are handled by AltGr.
If this is true, it's probably best to stop using "alt" accelerators, at least on Mac and Windows, although perhaps they could stay as they are on linux.
I'd rather have Alt mean the same as in Windows/KDE/GNOME. Not so much by consistency with popular systems, than because I'm sure a lot of Pd users would looove more keyboard shortcuts in general.
I think I have to just find "control" keys for making GUIs...
I say, try Control+Shift. It's easy to type, just stick your finger vertically between the two keys, and it presses both at once, and the rest of the hand is just as well-positioned as in the Ctrl-only case.
But I think I'd rather have user-definable accelerators and such. (It's been on my TODO list for too long).
Mathieu Bouchard -=- Montréal QC Canada -=- http://artengine.ca/matju
hi,
My impression is that the naming is different. The Windows Alt is apparently equivalent to the MacOS Command, whereas the Windows AltGr
is the equivalent of the MacOS Alt.
the apple-correct ways of handling keys can be found in the human
interface guidelines:
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/ OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGUserInput/chapter_2_section_3.html#//apple_ref/doc/ uid/TP30000361/TP22
--------------------------- >8 ----------------
Option (=alt)
When used with other keys, the Option key produces special symbols. The
Option key can also be used with the mouse to modify the effect of a
click or drag. For example, in some applications pressing Option while
dragging an object makes a copy of the object.
Command
Pressing the Command key at the same time as a character key tells the
application to interpret the key as a command rather than a character.
It can also be used with the mouse to modify the effect of a click or
drag. Key combinations that use the Command key are described in
“Keyboard Shortcuts”.
Control
The Control key is used to modify the functions of other keys. Combined
with a mouse click, it displays contextual menus (see “Contextual
Menus”).
--------------------------- >8 ----------------
so obviously pd should use _only_ the command key on osx for all the
stuff that is in the menus - like creating new objects, windows and the
like.
alt can be used for everything that has to do with dragging ...
ctrl-clicking is handled quite right but maybe using alt instead of
control to trigger messages in the edit view might work good (but that
is working quite good as it is).
If this is true, it's probably best to stop using "alt" accelerators, at least on Mac and Windows, although perhaps they could stay as they are on linux.
I'd rather have Alt mean the same as in Windows/KDE/GNOME. Not so much
by consistency with popular systems, than because I'm sure a lot of Pd
users would looove more keyboard shortcuts in general.
a possible way would be to use ctrl (or alt or ctrl+shift) on win+linux
and cmd (or cmd+shift) on the mac. as i am working on linux and mac i
am already used to press cmd instead of ctrl for a lot of tasks. i'm
surely not the only one. just having _one_ accelerator should be the
goal.
But I think I'd rather have user-definable accelerators and such. (It's been on my TODO list for too long).
reasonable defaults are the basics of every good interface. users can
change it anyway in an open source project but most will not do so.
and: if it is done well we can spare the user to _have to_ do it.
lg martin
Why can't it be user assignable? That would also open the door to hotkeys, which would really speed up development in PD.
martin pichlmair wrote:
hi,
My impression is that the naming is different. The Windows Alt is apparently equivalent to the MacOS Command, whereas the Windows AltGr is the equivalent of the MacOS Alt.
the apple-correct ways of handling keys can be found in the human
interface guidelines:http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/ OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGUserInput/chapter_2_section_3.html#//apple_ref/doc/ uid/TP30000361/TP22
--------------------------- >8 ---------------- Option (=alt) When used with other keys, the Option key produces special symbols. The
Option key can also be used with the mouse to modify the effect of a
click or drag. For example, in some applications pressing Option while
dragging an object makes a copy of the object.Command Pressing the Command key at the same time as a character key tells the
application to interpret the key as a command rather than a character.
It can also be used with the mouse to modify the effect of a click or
drag. Key combinations that use the Command key are described in
“Keyboard Shortcuts”.Control The Control key is used to modify the functions of other keys. Combined
with a mouse click, it displays contextual menus (see “Contextual Menus”). --------------------------- >8 ----------------so obviously pd should use _only_ the command key on osx for all the
stuff that is in the menus - like creating new objects, windows and the
like.alt can be used for everything that has to do with dragging ...
ctrl-clicking is handled quite right but maybe using alt instead of
control to trigger messages in the edit view might work good (but that
is working quite good as it is).If this is true, it's probably best to stop using "alt" accelerators, at least on Mac and Windows, although perhaps they could stay as they are on linux.
I'd rather have Alt mean the same as in Windows/KDE/GNOME. Not so much by consistency with popular systems, than because I'm sure a lot of Pd
users would looove more keyboard shortcuts in general.a possible way would be to use ctrl (or alt or ctrl+shift) on win+linux
and cmd (or cmd+shift) on the mac. as i am working on linux and mac i
am already used to press cmd instead of ctrl for a lot of tasks. i'm
surely not the only one. just having _one_ accelerator should be the goal.But I think I'd rather have user-definable accelerators and such. (It's been on my TODO list for too long).
reasonable defaults are the basics of every good interface. users can
change it anyway in an open source project but most will not do so.
and: if it is done well we can spare the user to _have to_ do it.lg martin
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
Sounds like a good idea, except for there are lots conflicts with
standard keys, like Ctrl/Cmd-V for paste, Ctrl/Cmd-C for Copy, or Cmd-H
for Hide App, Cmd-T for the font panel, Ctrl/Cmd-N for New. B,U,I
(Bold, Underline, Italic) can probably be overriden no problem tho. So
maybe Alt is the best comprimise. Ctrl/Cmd-Shift might be an
alternative, but Cmd-Shift-H is standard key for Hide Others.
.hc
On Dec 7, 2004, at 6:59 PM, Miller Puckette wrote:
Hi all,
Should Pd be using Alt-shortcuts at all, if that prevents people in Finland (and doubtless other places as well) from getting to characters that require the alt key to type? Maybe I should move everything over
to "control" (Windoze/Linux) and "command" (Apple).Opinions?
cheers Miller
On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 04:05:13PM -0500, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
I just remembered, the latest version of Tcl/Tk, 8.4.7, addresses the wierdness of the Alt key, so it should be much easier to use the Alt key on Darwin/MacOS X with Tcl/Tk 8.4.7
.hc
On Nov 1, 2004, at 3:09 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
It has to do with the way that the keys are mapped in Pd. The Tcl/Tk framework fully supports all of the keys.
Reworking the menus and key commands is relatively high on my todo list, but it'll probably be a couple months before I have time to get to it. Hopefully someone else will get to it before me...
.hc
On Nov 1, 2004, at 2:39 PM, rainer kohlberger wrote:
New to PD and a Mac OS X user; browsed the pd-list-mailarchive and found out that other users had have the same problem (in June): 'ALT'-shortcuts (for putting bangs, toggles, etc.) do not work.
Is that problem solved in the meantime? Has it something to do with the Tcl/Tk-Framwork? Other ideas?
rainer.
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
__ _____
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess
himself of it."- Thomas Jefferson
__ ____
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity." -John Gilmore
__ ____
There is no way to peace, peace is the way. -A.J. Muste
PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> http://iem.at/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pd-list
"[W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are
deliberately throwing it
away to benefit those who profit from scarcity."
-John Gilmore
-
Hans-Christoph Steiner -
Ian Smith-Heisters -
martin pichlmair -
Mathieu Bouchard -
Miller Puckette -
rainer kohlberger