A quick question RE the font: can it be included in the release? If we're going through all the trouble to include externals and the like, it shouldn't be so hard as to also include the font...or am I missing something?

~Kyle

On 4/14/07, Kevin McCoy km.takewithyou@gmail.com wrote:

I think that font looks great, much classier than courier... and it's nice to have the same font size/layout. Thanks for your work on that.

Kevin

On 4/14/07, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:

...

http://at.or.at/hans/pd/installers.html

Ok, finally another release for Pd-0.39.2-extended. After a long pause, it's time for a code freeze and debugging. That means Release Candidate 1. Yes, there are known bugs, and most definitely unknown bugs. Let's find them and make a final release!

There are two important changes in this release:

• DejaVu Sans Mono is now default font
• same sizes and layout on all platforms

That means you need to install the font "DejaVu Sans Mono" if you don't already have it installed:

http://dejavu.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

The use of this font is not set in stone, we can use another, but it needs to be free. Here are some screenshots of the fonts that I tried:

http://pow.idmi.poly.edu/~hans/pdfonts/

.hc

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That's the plan, we just have to figure out how best to do that.
It'll be easy on Windows, the installer will handle it nicely. On
GNU/Linux platforms, it should be installed via the package
management, like "yum install dejavu-lgc-fonts". On Mac OS X, the
user will probably have to do it manually, but that's not hard.

It might make more sense to use Bitstream Vera Sans Mono, since
that's included on any machine with GNOME installed. DejaVu is the
same font with support for more languages and character sets. I am
not sure that Pd will even display them all.

.hc

On Apr 15, 2007, at 1:35 AM, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:

A quick question RE the font: can it be included in the release? If we're going through all the trouble to include externals and the like, it shouldn't be so hard as to also include the font...or am I missing something?

~Kyle

On 4/14/07, Kevin McCoy km.takewithyou@gmail.com wrote:

...

I think that font looks great, much classier than courier... and it's nice to have the same font size/layout. Thanks for your work on
that.

Kevin

On 4/14/07, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:

...

http://at.or.at/hans/pd/installers.html

Ok, finally another release for Pd-0.39.2-extended. After a long pause, it's time for a code freeze and debugging. That means Release Candidate 1. Yes, there are known bugs, and most definitely unknown bugs. Let's find them and make a final release!

There are two important changes in this release:

• DejaVu Sans Mono is now default font
• same sizes and layout on all platforms

That means you need to install the font "DejaVu Sans Mono" if you don't already have it installed:

http://dejavu.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

The use of this font is not set in stone, we can use another, but it needs to be free. Here are some screenshots of the fonts that I
tried:

http://pow.idmi.poly.edu/~hans/pdfonts/

.hc

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this we should do freely and generously. - Benjamin Franklin

Hallo, Miller Puckette hat gesagt: // Miller Puckette wrote:

I think that, since font sizes now differ between platforms, it's probably OK to introduce a new, uniform font size as long as it doesn't exceed that of any currently used one by more than about a pixel... and indeed, it will be a huge benefit to get this straightened out at last!

Yep, definitely.

I now had a real look at pd-extended. Some comments: The properties menu for IEMGUIs still explicitly specify names like "Deja Sans ..." or "Helvetica". I think, it would be better to use more general names: "Mono", "Sans Serif" and "Serif". That way it would be easier to map the names to different font faces eventially or when "-typeface X" is used.

Then very much, even with Deja, I would prefer to have a bold typeface back. I find the non-bold fonts hard to read and for my tastes they are too similar in width to the object borders. Btw: the number in number boxes is positioned a little bit to low, not in the center.

_From a quick glance at pd.tk I still don't like, that the font face is hardcoded in many places. I'm tcl-illiterate, but it would be nice to have the fonts defined in just one place. One end goal IMO should be a system similar to the one in Desire Data: Here you can totally change the graphical appearance, from colors to fonts and beyond, by editing a GUI config file. With hardcoded font names everywhere this is porbably harder to realize.

Also after seeing Chun's DD presentation at "make art" last week I fell in love with the Zoom feature of Desire Data: If like me one is sight impaired when in front of a screen (yep, I'm aproaching 40), with current Pd it is necessary to change the font size, which, even with the Deja-font and pd-extended, will still break the layout of a patch. Instead of that, zooming into a patch would be a much better solution for handicapped users.

Ciao

Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__

Hallo, Josh Steiner hat gesagt: // Josh Steiner wrote:

Frank Barknecht wrote:

...

Also after seeing Chun's DD presentation at "make art" last week I fell in love with the Zoom feature of Desire Data:

anyone know if there are archives of the presentations anywhere on the internets? i looked on the site but didn't see any.

We're not yet ready, but it's planned.

Ciao

Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__

On Apr 16, 2007, at 1:34 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote:

Hallo, Miller Puckette hat gesagt: // Miller Puckette wrote:

...

I think that, since font sizes now differ between platforms, it's
probably OK to introduce a new, uniform font size as long as it doesn't
exceed that of any currently used one by more than about a pixel... and
indeed, it will be a huge benefit to get this straightened out at last!

Yep, definitely.

I now had a real look at pd-extended. Some comments: The properties menu for IEMGUIs still explicitly specify names like "Deja Sans ..." or "Helvetica". I think, it would be better to use more general names: "Mono", "Sans Serif" and "Serif". That way it would be easier to map the names to different font faces eventially or when "-typeface X" is used.

Then very much, even with Deja, I would prefer to have a bold typeface back. I find the non-bold fonts hard to read and for my tastes they are too similar in width to the object borders. Btw: the number in number boxes is positioned a little bit to low, not in the center.

I forgot to ask more questions about this. It's a significant
change, but not one that I have not put considerable thought into.

What font size to do use for your Pd patches? When you use fonts of
this size in other apps, do you have it set to bold?. I thought
about it and looked around, and I noticed that nobody that I saw uses
bold fonts for text unless it's a header or special case. Even when
reading code. Also, most people don't use 10pt fonts for normal
reading. For example, the default font for web pages is usually 12pt
or 16pt.

I think that Pd's text is not really like reading a block of text,
but maybe more like webpage menus. It seems those are mostly not in
bold fonts also, but sometimes are.

My first feeling when I saw the non-bold Pd was similar to your
reaction: it seemed hard to read. I decided to try it for a while,
since every other app I use does not use bold fonts. Now I am use to
it and have a hard time reading the old bold Pd patches, especially
compared to the new font at 12pt. One big annoyance is the tiny - in
DejaVu. Arg... Anyone want to make a Pd font?

.hc

_From a quick glance at pd.tk I still don't like, that the font face is hardcoded in many places. I'm tcl-illiterate, but it would be nice to have the fonts defined in just one place. One end goal IMO should be a system similar to the one in Desire Data: Here you can totally change the graphical appearance, from colors to fonts and beyond, by editing a GUI config file. With hardcoded font names everywhere this is porbably harder to realize.

Also after seeing Chun's DD presentation at "make art" last week I fell in love with the Zoom feature of Desire Data: If like me one is sight impaired when in front of a screen (yep, I'm aproaching 40), with current Pd it is necessary to change the font size, which, even with the Deja-font and pd-extended, will still break the layout of a patch. Instead of that, zooming into a patch would be a much better solution for handicapped users.

Ciao

Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__

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On Apr 16, 2007, at 5:40 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote:

Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

...

I forgot to ask more questions about this. It's a significant change, but not one that I have not put considerable thought into.

What font size to do use for your Pd patches? When you use fonts of this size in other apps, do you have it set to bold?. I thought about it and looked around, and I noticed that nobody that I saw uses bold fonts for text unless it's a header or special case.

I use bold in every text editor and terminal I use, which is, where I use mono fonts. Normally I use Lucida Sans Mono Bold or set Bitstream Vera Sans Mono Bold. I think, in general it's best to let people choose, however it's not possible to use "-typeface" or "-font" to switch between bold and normal.

...

Even when reading code. Also, most people don't use 10pt fonts for normal reading. For example, the default font for web pages is usually 12pt or 16pt.

It's because web people optimize for Windows! Windows still has a default DPI setting of 75 IIRC which is really old school on most modern screens. On my current machine I have a DPI of 90x89, which results in Windows websites having a very small font. With small 12" laptops and high resolutions the DPI settings get even more confusing for web and GUI designers. In the long run, zooming/scaling is the only solution that could make everyone happy.

...

I think that Pd's text is not really like reading a block of text, but maybe more like webpage menus. It seems those are mostly not in bold fonts also, but sometimes are.

Menu styling is a fashion thing, which will change every year. On the site I manage (www.dradio.de) our designer made every menu bold, teh NY Times has no bold menu at all.

Ideally, Pd would support custom fonts and scaling, but currently it
does not. That means right now, one font needs to be the default.

I just tested on Windows. Apparently I lied somewhat, it's a bit
better, but still whacked. I guess I still need to do more work...
what a PITA... apparently, Windows needs "tk scaling 1" to be the
same size as the other platforms. There must be something strange
going on it that because setting "tk scaling 1" on Windows makes
everything look good except the menu fonts are tiny.

.hc

Ciao

Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__

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On Apr 17, 2007, at 3:01 AM, Frank Barknecht wrote:

Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

...

Ideally, Pd would support custom fonts and scaling, but currently it does not.

It does support custom fonts somehow through using the "-typeface" commandline option. Maybe the best aproach would be to make this option more flexible and accept font weights and sizes as well?

Sounds good. I've done some work along those lines. In C land, I
made everything read the font from sys_font, IIRC, which is set in
s_main.c. It used to be set locally in each spot.

Maybe there should be a separate "-fontweight" option.

.hc

Ciao

Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__

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just one random thought

Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

My first feeling when I saw the non-bold Pd was similar to your
reaction: it seemed hard to read. I decided to try it for a while,
since every other app I use does not use bold fonts. Now I am use to
it and have a hard time reading the old bold Pd patches, especially
compared to the new font at 12pt. One big annoyance is the tiny - in
DejaVu. Arg... Anyone want to make a Pd font?

one of Pd's major weaknesses in terms of usability is (imo) that it is rather unfit for "visually impaired" (as frank has nicely braught to our attention). being somewhat visually impaired too, i would really love to see that readability becomes a really important design factor. making subjective judgements is probably not the correct way to do it.

changing the fonts to be the same on all platforms is definitely a good start. i would be very reluctant about changing the font-types (this is: bold/..., serifs, size, ...) without very good reasons to do so. i am no expert in this field, but i fear that very few people here are.

i vote for not changing too much, based solely on subjective impressions.

so: go ahead unifying the fonts. but do not change the appearance without good reasons.

just 2¢ from the conservatives.

ms.dft IOhannes

On Mon, Apr 16, 2007 at 07:34:29PM +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:

Also after seeing Chun's DD presentation at "make art" last week I fell in love with the Zoom feature of Desire Data: If like me one is

Ohhh, I really want to see that!

Chris.

http://mccormick.cx

I should mention, (on Mac OS X at least), full anti-aliasing support
is now turned on, so things look much smoother. I forget whether
that's supported on the other platforms.

.hc

On Apr 15, 2007, at 12:01 AM, Kevin McCoy wrote:

I think that font looks great, much classier than courier... and it's nice to have the same font size/layout. Thanks for your work on that.

Kevin

On 4/14/07, Hans-Christoph Steiner hans@eds.org wrote:

...

http://at.or.at/hans/pd/installers.html

Ok, finally another release for Pd-0.39.2-extended. After a long pause, it's time for a code freeze and debugging. That means Release Candidate 1. Yes, there are known bugs, and most definitely unknown bugs. Let's find them and make a final release!

There are two important changes in this release:

• DejaVu Sans Mono is now default font
• same sizes and layout on all platforms

That means you need to install the font "DejaVu Sans Mono" if you don't already have it installed:

http://dejavu.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

The use of this font is not set in stone, we can use another, but it needs to be free. Here are some screenshots of the fonts that I
tried:

http://pow.idmi.poly.edu/~hans/pdfonts/

.hc

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Yeah, there's a bug report on that. IIRC, it's just a fake warning
that should be removed.

.hc

On Apr 15, 2007, at 11:28 AM, victor wrote:

Thanks HansC.

In Debian etch, after load pd from terminal:

error: to function, this needs to be compiled against Pd 0.40 or
higher, or a version that has sys_register_loader() libdir loader $Revision: 1.5 $

But Pd is working

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Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

On Apr 15, 2007, at 10:16 AM, Frank Barknecht wrote:

...

With some recent patches posted here, e.g. your curve mappings, I've encountered some messy display issues when opening them on standard Pd, see attached screenshot, where I marked the locations. Is this related to the different spacings of the new fonts used or was this just "sloppy patching"?

Thanks for the note. It was neither, it was a actually
laziness. ;) I basically wrote one helpfile for the curves, and
just copy it for the new curve objects as I write them, and used a
regexp to replace the object names.

Ah, okay. I was just encountering these kinds of overlapping comments in some other patches by other people as well so I was fearing, that it might an incompatibility with patches written using pd-extended and us old-school Courier folks.

Ciao

Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__

Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

On Apr 15, 2007, at 5:53 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote:

...

Ah, okay. I was just encountering these kinds of overlapping comments in some other patches by other people as well so I was fearing, that it might an incompatibility with patches written using pd-extended and us old-school Courier folks.

There are probably also incompatibilities in the patches. There
definitely are size incompatibilities between the new font Pd- extended and other pd versions.

So now there *are* size incompatibilities with Miller's Pd? I'm just asking to be prepared, I don't run the Pd from pd-extended, I prefer a plain MSP-Pd in the latest version.

There are incompatibilities between different versions of Pd (0.38, 0.39, 0.40), and each of those versions different platforms (Windows, GNU/Linux and Mac OS X). This version is the same size to the pixel on each platform. There is, of course, no way that the new sizes could be compatible with all of variations. But I hope you'll agree that this is a better situation.

Of course having Pd look the same on all platforms is a good goal, and Miller also supported this in the past. I'm not against solving this at all. But of course incompatibilities should be kept to a minimum, I hope you'll agree with that. (Besides the OS-issues, no versions of MSP-Pd that I've used, had size-incompatibilities when using the same font.)

I'm just a bit worrind: Now that you've released new fonts into the (pd-extended) wild, there's an additional, new variable to consider with regard to compatibility when going further with font enhancements.

Ciao

Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org_ __goto10.org__

Yeah, 9point would be better than 8pt. Please file a bug in the
tracker, and for anything like this.

As for the Gem Text, it's just a matter of someone doing the work...
I think it's basically adding FTGL to the CVS and having it built
from there, then pointing Gem to use FTGL from CVS.

.hc

On Apr 15, 2007, at 7:38 PM, timon wrote:

Hi Like the look of the new face, guess 8px gets a little small, 9px is usually the smallest legible size for screen based, non mono spaces text. Be nice with 9px option for space saving patches. Speaking of text, Is there any reason why [textextruded] is still not working? Its one of the most essential components of GEM and there are no explanation to why it no longer appears working (at least I havent found any). Has been that way for months. Havent been able to use any of the releases since extended 4. Sorry to bicker about it.

Timon.

On 15 Apr 2007, at 04:14, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

...

http://at.or.at/hans/pd/installers.html

Ok, finally another release for Pd-0.39.2-extended. After a long pause, it's time for a code freeze and debugging. That means Release Candidate 1. Yes, there are known bugs, and most definitely unknown bugs. Let's find them and make a final release!

There are two important changes in this release:

• DejaVu Sans Mono is now default font
• same sizes and layout on all platforms

That means you need to install the font "DejaVu Sans Mono" if you don't already have it installed:

http://dejavu.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

The use of this font is not set in stone, we can use another, but it needs to be free. Here are some screenshots of the fonts that I tried:

http://pow.idmi.poly.edu/~hans/pdfonts/

.hc

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