hello,
I would agree with this (good to have other sources) and will add that the French version has been updated to the latest(ish) state of the pd ecosystem, and will be updated when / where necessary (I'll try to keep it up) to keep a current (french) ressource available with a didactic introduction to concepts (and not just a technical reference)
https://fr.flossmanuals.net/puredata
best,
Olm-e
- Re: mickfuzz's Pure Data FLOSS Manual, a message on behalf of Pd's community (Jos? de Abreu)
Message: 3 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:36:17 -0300 From: Jos? de Abreu abreubacelar@gmail.com To: Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com Cc: Pd-List pd-list@lists.iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] mickfuzz's Pure Data FLOSS Manual, a message on behalf of Pd's community Message-ID: CAPy0DupFXFFO-VKBt7kHtDoZ0r3V-nG7bUSoGgrd9xX0F5zoFQ@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 ?s 09:41, Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
A follow up to the Pd-list. This wasn't all too easy and it was a bit clumsy, but I gave my best as an internet stalker and was able to find information on who 'micckfuzz' is, where he teaches, his work email, and got a response. Long story short: I'm now able to edit the FLOSS Manuals book!
But seriously, besides its tutorial (many of which I also have problems with, not to mention how outdated they are), I just think we need to forget about a second and parallel Manual on the wild and bring things to Pd's actual manual.
Hello, congratulations! and i disagree to this point, so i want to say why it is good to have a second pd "manual".
First of all, Floss manuals, while the name is "manuals" and you already said on the other e-mail that it is more a place with tutorials than an actual manual to pd, it is a place that don't live inside pd (i mean, it isn't in the pd sources), and this has potential of documenting things that doesn't need to live with pd.
For example, we can talk properly about pd forks, the differences between them, we can teach people how to install some fork, we can create tutorials about externals, and put content that could make people easily choose some external for something specific that they want to do in their projects (this is something that would also make the experience with deken better, people could go to floss and search for some topic, and find which externals would need to use following some tutorial, and then download them from deken following instructions, this would be great for people arriving at pd!).
A second pd place would be great to put tutorials where the community can create and teach all sort of things, from basic examples of doing a simple, but complete project, explain some concept going from the start to end doing it in practice, gather information pointing to other sites with other tutorials (think about "read more:" and put some links to other places explaining the same subject, some relevant discussions on pd forum, relevant e-mails, maybe even links without using pd at all, why not?).
I see potential in having such a place for the community. This simplifies the scope of the official manual to explain how pd works, make a reference for the objects and also a good start for beginners on how to use the software, and point floss manuals as a place to see and learn more, and contribute with more content too.
Having said that, i think we should update floss, make it point to the official manual whenever possible to read about the references, and make it work together with the official manual. A truly beginner in computer music would benefit to learn basic concepts using pd, and maybe the pd manual isn't the right place for that, but a tutorial using pd to teach these basic concepts would work along with learning how to use the software, and i think floss is the place for that type of information.
I'll see now how to invite others to this.
Anyway, we have a new github page where we're discussing documentation things, for those interested, see https://github.com/pure-data/pddp/issues/22
cheers!
Em s?b., 20 de nov. de 2021 ?s 21:10, Alexandre Torres Porres < porres@gmail.com> escreveu:
Dear 'mickfuzz', on behalf of The Pd community, I'm getting in touch with you (on this email copied to the Pd-list) in order for us to discuss the future of Pd's FLOSS Manuals as a community. Many of us would like to work on a revision of this manual or maybe, in fact, use a whole new platform for tutorials.
For reference, please check an earlier thread on the email list https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2021-05/129652.html
It is our understanding that the FLOSS Manuals, as it is, it's very outdated and should be archived for historical purposes. It is a manual based on Pd-extended. In fact, there is already an archived version of the manual here: http://archive.flossmanuals.net/pure-data/ Right now, the new FLOSS Manual that you seem to have created and maintain is just the same as the archived version, see: http://write.flossmanuals.net/pure-data/introduction2/
Again, one idea is to just delete this, keep the archived version, and we work on a new one somewhere else. This is because I, for one, can't even create a new account on FLOSS to start working on it. I tried getting in touch to create a new account and nothing happened.
Please get back to the Pd list so we can discuss what we should and could do as a community.
If for some reason we don't hear from you and the new version of the manual stays as it (the same as the archived version), we'll disconsider this new version/link in puredata.info and just keep a link to the archived version and work on new similar tutorials as a community somewhere else.
thanks Alex
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 11:33, ol@ogeem.be escreveu:
hello,
I would agree with this (good to have other sources) and will add that the French version has been updated to the latest(ish) state of the pd ecosystem
Hi, well, first, sorry to be harsh criticism I'll bring here, but I strongly disagree you have an updated version of the manual. I've been checking the changes. The french manual has a different introduction and talks about the latest vanilla and forks, but all of the remains is basically the same. For instance, the installation still considers 'Pd-extended' 0.39' => https://fr.flossmanuals.net/puredata/installation-sur-mac-os-x/
When talking about OSC, there's no mentioning of Pd's internals that can handle it. Not to mention that it is quite outdated in general when not mentioning now the quite old feature that is [clone]
You don't explain how to use deken or even mention it. Pd's actual manual is not referred and it includes lots of important and current information on how to handle externals. When talking about libraries, you have information on pd-extended's [import] object and nothing about [declare]. Many of the external libraries you have on the manual simply do not show how you can install them in the first place. And GEM seem to have issues on macOS (I don't really know much about this) and is a bit outdated. There's nothing about new externals, like [ofelia], for instance...
I can't read french, but what I see is that this is a variant of the english floss manual centered in pd-extended, but with a new small introduction that talks about vanilla and a couple of forks and with the pd-extended external list removed (which is something pretty nice it had!). I think this is a good example of parallel efforts that despite the advantages and good it brings (like being a great resource for french speakers) end up generating noise. We now have an official Manual that not many users are aware of. An english and abandoned FLOSS Manual that is actually centered in Pd-Extended and totally outdated, and a french version of the same manual that is not the same manual at all (but people will assume that it is the exact same thing but in french) and it sits somewhere between a pd-extended manual and an outdated Pd manual.
It's ok if we want to go back and write a new FLOSS Manual, but please, let us do that then. Just keep this as the french version of the old FLOSS Manual (centered in Pd-extended) - in fatc I'm trying to rename it as a pd-extended manual.
And if we start with a new english one, we can then think about translating it to other languages. And people who want to translate it to other languages should collaborate with the english one. If they're working on new things on a different language, they can also bring it to the original 'master' one in english to avoid noise.
and will be updated when / where necessary
(I'll try to keep it up) to keep a current (french) ressource available with a didactic introduction to concepts (and not just a technical reference)
Well, I think this is still quite far from being updated, so it needed to be updated *now* in things I've pointed, but again, I can't read french and help more, and we could work instead ogether on a new english official version first, where more people can collaborate (including you) before we have it in other languages.
I don't know what you mean by "a didactic introduction to concepts (and not just a technical reference)". If you mean Pd's manual/documentation is just too technical and not didactic, we can discuss about improving on this matter.
cheers
hi, I can read your criticism, and agree it's not fully updated and needs care, but no it's not a translation of the old En flossmanual, it was totaly writen from scratch with another approach ... more didactic / less tech ref in the structure
I'm not in the position to contribute to the new english one in term of time (I'm still a non institutional freelancer intermitent new media artist not supported by any national/regional institutions nor by high trade crypto capitalism) and probably "expertise" (I'm too "generalist" to talk as an expert, nor developper of any proper published external/abstraction code neither, but more as experienced user with >15 years and diversity of usage).
But I could translate/port the new relevant content from an english manual that is uptodate elsewhere in this old/new french manual that is still mainly correct from a teaching pov (I still use it with success with new persons)
again your criticism while right concentrate on the technicalities (how to install this/that function) and do not look at the underlying structure of the teaching that is "how does pd works" ... "basically" ... which this french book tried to address first (then talks about technicalities)
- we really need other language resources, so I'll concentrate on
maintaining this one in french (incl. your remarks), as this english centered technological culture is _really_ exluding many people totaly capable to handle such tools but not at ease with the english language used as "lingua franca" (what a twist of history! ;) )
best,
Olm-e
On 2021-11-22 18:13, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 11:33, ol@ogeem.be escreveu:
hello,
I would agree with this (good to have other sources) and will add that the French version has been updated to the latest(ish) state of the pd ecosystem
Hi, well, first, sorry to be harsh criticism I'll bring here, but I strongly disagree you have an updated version of the manual. I've been checking the changes. The french manual has a different introduction and talks about the latest vanilla and forks, but all of the remains is basically the same. For instance, the installation still considers 'Pd-extended' 0.39' => https://fr.flossmanuals.net/puredata/installation-sur-mac-os-x/
When talking about OSC, there's no mentioning of Pd's internals that can handle it. Not to mention that it is quite outdated in general when not mentioning now the quite old feature that is [clone]
You don't explain how to use deken or even mention it. Pd's actual manual is not referred and it includes lots of important and current information on how to handle externals. When talking about libraries, you have information on pd-extended's [import] object and nothing about [declare]. Many of the external libraries you have on the manual simply do not show how you can install them in the first place. And GEM seem to have issues on macOS (I don't really know much about this) and is a bit outdated. There's nothing about new externals, like [ofelia], for instance...
I can't read french, but what I see is that this is a variant of the english floss manual centered in pd-extended, but with a new small introduction that talks about vanilla and a couple of forks and with the pd-extended external list removed (which is something pretty nice it had!). I think this is a good example of parallel efforts that despite the advantages and good it brings (like being a great resource for french speakers) end up generating noise. We now have an official Manual that not many users are aware of. An english and abandoned FLOSS Manual that is actually centered in Pd-Extended and totally outdated, and a french version of the same manual that is not the same manual at all (but people will assume that it is the exact same thing but in french) and it sits somewhere between a pd-extended manual and an outdated Pd manual.
It's ok if we want to go back and write a new FLOSS Manual, but please, let us do that then. Just keep this as the french version of the old FLOSS Manual (centered in Pd-extended) - in fatc I'm trying to rename it as a pd-extended manual.
And if we start with a new english one, we can then think about translating it to other languages. And people who want to translate it to other languages should collaborate with the english one. If they're working on new things on a different language, they can also bring it to the original 'master' one in english to avoid noise.
and will be updated when / where necessary (I'll try to keep it up) to keep a current (french) ressource available with a didactic introduction to concepts (and not just a technical reference)
Well, I think this is still quite far from being updated, so it needed to be updated now in things I've pointed, but again, I can't read french and help more, and we could work instead ogether on a new english official version first, where more people can collaborate (including you) before we have it in other languages.
I don't know what you mean by "a didactic introduction to concepts (and not just a technical reference)". If you mean Pd's manual/documentation is just too technical and not didactic, we can discuss about improving on this matter.
cheers
Ok, cool, as I said, I can't read french and compare the two.
Having such a french manual out there (if you're working on it, updating it and using it to teach) is harmless, but we just need to avoid the noise and confusion. You should clarify that this is an independent manual, that Pd has its own manual, that this is unrelated to the other FLOSS Manuals in english, and on and on...
As far as giving a simple overview of the current state of versions and forks, which seems to be what you did, we can also have it on puredata.info and voilà! Pd's manual already refers to puredata.info, so it does't really miss that. Unless you plan to actually use the forks you mention in your manual. Anyway, I did improve the information on both of these forks in puredata.info (updated pd-l2ork as their own webpage is confusing and misleading) and added Pd-ceammc.
- we really need other language resources
awesome, thanks
so I'll concentrate on maintaining this one in french (incl. your remarks), as this english centered technological culture is _really_ exluding many people totaly capable to handle such tools but not at ease with the english language used as "lingua franca"
Agreed, I wish we had such a thing in brazilian portuguese too, But then, I'm also like you: a non institutional freelancer intermitent new media artist not supported by any national/regional institutions nor by high trade crypto capitalism that teaches Pd.
And that's my point, I don't know if we have the resources to pull this off. I can't contribute to a new FLOSS Manuals right now, let alone a brazilian portuguesee translation of it...
cheers
Em seg., 22 de nov. de 2021 às 16:09, ol@ogeem.be escreveu:
hi, I can read your criticism, and agree it's not fully updated and needs care,
another one, you're using fiddle~ which has been superseded by sigmund~ and considered obsolete for quite a whale now. Sigmund~ came over a decade ago, about half of Pd's life.
-
Alexandre Torres Porres -
ol＠ogeem.be